UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$) Forum

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aristotle502

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UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by aristotle502 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:04 pm

I'm trying to decide between accepting a full tuition scholarship to WUSTL and UChicago with no aid (though am in the midst of a financial aid appeal). I would like to work in the federal judiciary or academic eventually and want to clerk after graduation, and I know that obviously Chicago would better facilitate those goals. But I'm not sure I can get over the massive amount of debt I'd have to take on to do that. Since I do want to work in PI, I would enroll in UChicago's LRAP plan, but it still feels like a lot to commit to at this point.
To the extent that it matters, I've also been waitlisted a UVA and Georgetown.
Am I crazy for being this conflicted?

apple22

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Re: UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by apple22 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:30 pm

I mean, that's a pretty large gap between Chicago and WUSTL. Did you get into any schools in between? If you got into Chicago it's likely that you got into at least one other T14. Even if you didn't want to go there, that's better leverage for your financial aid appeal than WUSTL.

Personally if I were in your shoes and I got into no other schools I'd take Chicago, what with your goals of clerking and academia. It would however be a pretty risky move--academia is incredibly hard to get even at CCN, and you'll still need good grades for clerking.

crazywafflez

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Re: UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by crazywafflez » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:52 pm

I try and tell folks not to bank on academia at all. But Chi is certainly the better pick for that. For PI, I think either is defensible- as Uchi has a good lrap program (or so I've heard) and WashU for free will allow that easily. However, the kind of PI gigs you can get out of median at Chi will most likely look different from the ones available to the median WashU grad. I'd look at what kind of PI you want to do (say Protect Democracy, or ACLU, or Innocence Project) and see where these folks went to school and see what you want to emulate- if you are looking at doing legal aid in MO or or being a PD, then WashU will easily get that if you show interest. Additionally, if you change your mind and decide the biglaw route, WashU has about a coin's flip chance (maybe a bit more if the economy improves); whereas, anybody who wants it and can interview well from Uchi will get biglaw. Additionally, to get a competitive clerkship out of WashU you'll need tippy top grades, whereas, from Chi you may only need top 33% or something like that. If you just mean any fed clerkship though, I think median at UCHi is fine and something like top 20-30% at WashU can get you something akin to western dist of Louisiana. Your mileage may vary and so many other things may factor into that equation.
In your position, I'd take UChi. The debt sucks, but the caliber difference of these schools is pretty big. WashU is a good school, and going for totally free is a defensible option, nobody would hold it against you! However, UCHi is a great school, and really can't be beat. I always try and look at what the median grad at the school will get, and the median grad at UChi has a real shot at some really great options, whereas the median WashU grad can miss the boat on a lot.

objctnyrhnr

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Re: UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by objctnyrhnr » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:52 am

Chicago no question.

Iowahawk

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Re: UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by Iowahawk » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:55 pm

crazywafflez wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:52 pm
If you just mean any fed clerkship though, I think median at UCHi is fine and something like top 20-30% at WashU can get you something akin to western dist of Louisiana.
Without ties clerkships are more competitive than this, judges in places like the Western District of Louisiana will hire one of the top few students at LSU or Tulane over someone pretty far down the class at someplace like Wash U. But that only increases your point of the benefits of Chicago for clerking, it is one of the few schools you can maaaaybe fed clerk from median at.

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HillandHollow

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Re: UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by HillandHollow » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:32 pm

aristotle502 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:04 pm
I'm trying to decide between accepting a full tuition scholarship to WUSTL and UChicago with no aid (though am in the midst of a financial aid appeal). I would like to work in the federal judiciary or academic eventually and want to clerk after graduation, and I know that obviously Chicago would better facilitate those goals. But I'm not sure I can get over the massive amount of debt I'd have to take on to do that. Since I do want to work in PI, I would enroll in UChicago's LRAP plan, but it still feels like a lot to commit to at this point.
To the extent that it matters, I've also been waitlisted a UVA and Georgetown.
Am I crazy for being this conflicted?
What type of public interest are you trying to get in to?

unknown94

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Re: UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by unknown94 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:43 am

Chicago and this isn't even close

CanadianWolf

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Re: UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by CanadianWolf » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:07 am

https://www.law.uchicago.edu/financialaid/budget

The actual COA numbers may help in your decision-making process.

How much in student loans will be needed for you to attend Chicago ? If you need to finance the full $300,000 , then WashUStL looks attractive.

aristotle502

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Re: UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by aristotle502 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:08 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:07 am
https://www.law.uchicago.edu/financialaid/budget

The actual COA numbers may help in your decision-making process.

How much in student loans will be needed for you to attend Chicago ? If you need to finance the full $300,000 , then WashUStL looks attractive.
Yes, I've thought through COA for both schools and shouldn't have to pay full sticker for Chicago, as my husband will be working while I'm in law school, so I'll likely only need to cover tuition at Chicago. I've also gotten $5k per year in aid from Chicago now, reducing COA to about 62k per year.

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aristotle502

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Re: UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by aristotle502 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:20 pm

apple22 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:30 pm
I mean, that's a pretty large gap between Chicago and WUSTL. Did you get into any schools in between? If you got into Chicago it's likely that you got into at least one other T14. Even if you didn't want to go there, that's better leverage for your financial aid appeal than WUSTL.

Personally if I were in your shoes and I got into no other schools I'd take Chicago, what with your goals of clerking and academia. It would however be a pretty risky move--academia is incredibly hard to get even at CCN, and you'll still need good grades for clerking.
So to give some context here, I never expected to get into UChicago. It was my dream school and the highest-ranked school I applied to. Besides Chicago, the only other schools in the T-14 I applied to were Georgetown, UVA, and Northwestern, all of which I've been waitlisted at. So it's kind of a weird situation - after Chicago, WashU is the next-highest ranked school I've been admitted to. But if I end up getting off any waitlists I will definitely try to leverage that with Chicago.

I'm aware that academia is incredibly difficult to get into, so I definitely don't have my heart set on it. But clerking is pretty much my highest priority - I'm very interested in being a judge one day or in doing appellate litigation, particularly in Constitutional law. Clerking (ideally at an appellate level) would not only give me experience in those fields, but would hopefully give me a leg up in the job market, since everything I'm interested in seems to be quite selective.

apple22

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Re: UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by apple22 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:43 pm

aristotle502 wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:20 pm
apple22 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:30 pm
I mean, that's a pretty large gap between Chicago and WUSTL. Did you get into any schools in between? If you got into Chicago it's likely that you got into at least one other T14. Even if you didn't want to go there, that's better leverage for your financial aid appeal than WUSTL.

Personally if I were in your shoes and I got into no other schools I'd take Chicago, what with your goals of clerking and academia. It would however be a pretty risky move--academia is incredibly hard to get even at CCN, and you'll still need good grades for clerking.
So to give some context here, I never expected to get into UChicago. It was my dream school and the highest-ranked school I applied to. Besides Chicago, the only other schools in the T-14 I applied to were Georgetown, UVA, and Northwestern, all of which I've been waitlisted at. So it's kind of a weird situation - after Chicago, WashU is the next-highest ranked school I've been admitted to. But if I end up getting off any waitlists I will definitely try to leverage that with Chicago.

I'm aware that academia is incredibly difficult to get into, so I definitely don't have my heart set on it. But clerking is pretty much my highest priority - I'm very interested in being a judge one day or in doing appellate litigation, particularly in Constitutional law. Clerking (ideally at an appellate level) would not only give me experience in those fields, but would hopefully give me a leg up in the job market, since everything I'm interested in seems to be quite selective.
Are you in a position where you can reapply next cycle? What are your stats? If you got into Chicago you have a good shot at Columbia or NYU as well.

I guess it just comes down with how strong of a stomach you have for risk. You should remember that at schools where everyone is really smart there is always the chance you will end up at median or even near the bottom of the class, which will make your prospects a lot more limited (though at Chicago you'll still likely be able to get biglaw and pay off your loans).

CanadianWolf

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Re: UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by CanadianWolf » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:24 am

With a $5,000 award from the University of Chicago, your first year costs for just tuition, books, & fees will be reduced to $67,000 (not to $62,000) and is likely to increase during your second & third years of law school. If funding your law school education through student loans, then you may be borrowing a good bit over $200,000 during the course of your 3 year law school education.

Paying back over $200,000 in student loans for a University of Chicago law degree is doable if willing to work for four to five years in biglaw immediately after graduation.(I do not know the details of Chicago's LRAP plan.) Carrying over $200,000 in student loans includes a significant amount of stress. And the $200,000 figure does not include your living expenses (room & board, transportation, and personal expenses).

Your indecision is understandable as Chicago is one of only a handful of law schools for which massive student loan debt is worth considering.

No easy answer. Much may depend upon your personal situation not revealed in this thread. Either choice is likely to result in feelings of regret.

Almost Aristotle

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Re: UChicago (no aid) vs. WUSTL ($$$$)

Post by Almost Aristotle » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:49 am

You made a great argument on the sheer unexpectedness of your admission to Chicago. You really can't afford to throw that away, but you need to plan carefully to make it work.

In a similar vein, an appeals clerkship would be unexpected as well. You may need to accept a district clerkship first, or even wait until after biglaw to get what you really want. It's becoming more common for experienced lawyers to apply for clerkships. A relative of mine told me, at age 38, that he had a standing offer to clerk for a state appeals court judge. He couldn't afford to take the hit in income, so he became a partner in a boutique firm instead.

If you did, say, get an appeals clerkship, I would advise you to accept it but then stay open to biglaw. Even two or three years of working your loans off could reduce your principal from 220k or so to maybe 100k, which even without LRAP would be far more manageable. You wouldn't need to pay it all off from the biglaw job.

Also, biglaw, which is a good idea, would only be possible within a couple of years of graduation. Two clerkships and then two years of biglaw (often in DC) is very common for top-notch academics. Believe me, I reread some CVs recently. I find it quite exciting, but also intimidating.

Anyway, you're on the right track, but in a very, very competitive field. You need to plan well to maximize your career opportunities without assuming too much risk. Hope it goes well, and maybe not exactly how you think it will!

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