BU $0 debt vs. Cornell $110k debt [NEVER BEEN THIS SPLIT MY ENTIRE LIFE] Forum

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cam1992

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Re: BU $0 debt vs. Cornell $110k debt [NEVER BEEN THIS SPLIT MY ENTIRE LIFE]

Post by cam1992 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:31 am

I faced a similar choice--I wanted biglaw in Texas and I was choosing between UT for free and Northwestern/UVA/trying to get off waitlist at other t14s at around $100K. I was extremely cost cautious and went to UT. Ultimately had a good experience, but with some perspective I think going to a higher ranked school would have been worth the additional costs. Going to a non T-14 means there is ABSOLUTELY no room for error. I messed up an exam my first semester and made a C. This basically screwed me for OCI, I ended up with a big law gig (no pick of firm or practice group though), but it took a ton of hustling and I basically had to live in the library for the following five semesters in order to graduate with honors/top 20 percent. Graduating debt free is HUGE and I am not saying I would definitely chose the other path, but I wish I had given it more serious consideration.

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Re: BU $0 debt vs. Cornell $110k debt [NEVER BEEN THIS SPLIT MY ENTIRE LIFE]

Post by jjjetplane » Wed May 05, 2021 12:12 am

I am a lawyer not a student. I went to a lower ranked school and graduated toward the very top of my class and got v20 biglaw.

No debt is HUGE. Grind hard at BU, get Boston Biglaw (Skadden, Weil, Ropes, WSGR, etc. come to mind), grind another five years - learn a TON, stack paper, and then go to South Korea.

BU won't be as shiny of a school on your resume, but those large firm years will, they will train you well, and you'll have saved a ton of cash (living in a slightly cheaper city that pays NYC market, no less). When work sucks, you'll have more stamina to stick with it to learn more / earn more. If you decide to leave before the 5-year mark - no harm, no foul. You won't have tons of debt to pay off and you can be nimble.

I will caveat that you will need to study HARD. That also means scouring TLS for how-to guides to end up at the top of your class for 1L, when it matters for firm recruiting. If you follow those guides to a T, they actually work.

My two cents. DO NOT listen to students who are saying that the obvious answer is Cornell. They lack perspective.

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cavalier1138

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Re: BU $0 debt vs. Cornell $110k debt [NEVER BEEN THIS SPLIT MY ENTIRE LIFE]

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed May 05, 2021 6:33 am

jjjetplane wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:12 am
I will caveat that you will need to study HARD. That also means scouring TLS for how-to guides to end up at the top of your class for 1L, when it matters for firm recruiting. If you follow those guides to a T, they actually work.
So just to be clear: Everyone in your class who didn't land biglaw (based on your description, I'm guessing that was at least 70-80% of your class) didn't study hard enough? (https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... s-reality/)

The OP also isn't looking at sticker-debt from Cornell. They're talking about taking out $110k in debt for a massive increase in their chances at securing the career they want. That's an entirely manageable debt load. The OP also doesn't need to go to BU to get a leg up in Boston hiring because (again, read the thread) they already have ties.

Congrats on your great outcome. The fact that you don't recognize the significant role luck played in your story is disheartening, but again, survivorship bias is a helluva drug. You should not be trying to convince 0Ls that "hard work" is somehow going to separate them from the pack and guarantee that outcome for them.

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screwtapeletters

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Re: BU $0 debt vs. Cornell $110k debt [NEVER BEEN THIS SPLIT MY ENTIRE LIFE]

Post by screwtapeletters » Wed May 05, 2021 11:16 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 6:33 am
jjjetplane wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:12 am
I will caveat that you will need to study HARD. That also means scouring TLS for how-to guides to end up at the top of your class for 1L, when it matters for firm recruiting. If you follow those guides to a T, they actually work.
So just to be clear: Everyone in your class who didn't land biglaw (based on your description, I'm guessing that was at least 70-80% of your class) didn't study hard enough? (https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... s-reality/)

The OP also isn't looking at sticker-debt from Cornell. They're talking about taking out $110k in debt for a massive increase in their chances at securing the career they want. That's an entirely manageable debt load. The OP also doesn't need to go to BU to get a leg up in Boston hiring because (again, read the thread) they already have ties.

Congrats on your great outcome. The fact that you don't recognize the significant role luck played in your story is disheartening, but again, survivorship bias is a helluva drug. You should not be trying to convince 0Ls that "hard work" is somehow going to separate them from the pack and guarantee that outcome for them.
I second Cavalier. Who’s not a lawyer at TLS? OP, the numbers recently came out: http://www.abarequireddisclosures.org/E ... comes.aspx BU is 98 out of 227 biglaw (43.17%), and 6 out of 227 Fed (2.64%). That’s not bad, but it’s still less than a coin flip chance, and you have to assume your classmates are all hardworking people who are at the least as smart as you. Class of 2023 had a 167 LSAT and 3.8 GPA median - that’s not an easy number to get to for most applicants (not saying having high LSAT/GPA is necessarily indicative of a person’s smartness, but it does show a group of people who are willing to sit down and work hard): https://www.bu.edu/law/admissions/jd-ad ... s-profile/

To put things into perspective, Cornell had a 168 LSAT and 3.86 GPA median. Yes, the numbers are slightly higher, but I wouldn’t say the students at Cornell are vastly superior to those at BU. In other words, whether you go to BU or Cornell, the competition will be fierce with smart, hard-working people of similar caliber. But at Cornell, you get 135/195 biglaw (69.2%) and 12/195 Fed (6.2%), such that you get that extra psychological comfort of sitting down one night before the finals as you tear your hair out regretting not having started exam prep earlier rather than outlining, but then realizing you can just relax cause even if you end up at bottom 30%, you still have a pretty good shot at biglaw.

If your goal wasn’t biglaw I’d be 100% for BU here, but given your goals, I’d say Cornell makes much more sense (and seriously, 100k isn’t ideal, but it’s not that bad).

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Re: BU $0 debt vs. Cornell $110k debt [NEVER BEEN THIS SPLIT MY ENTIRE LIFE]

Post by Res Ipsa Loquitter » Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:08 pm

Wild Card wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:40 pm
Cornell is a good school, and there is a big SK community there, which you may like.

Reputation-wise, and with respect to career prospects, they are on a different level.

And if you want to work in SK, Cornell will surely help you.

You could pay off $110K after 2+ years of biglaw. $200k+ is a different story.
How can OP pay off $110K debt in 2 years of Biglaw? It's not like Boston or more likely NYC are cheap places to live.

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BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?)

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Re: BU $0 debt vs. Cornell $110k debt [NEVER BEEN THIS SPLIT MY ENTIRE LIFE]

Post by BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) » Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:37 am

Cornell, and it's not even close. Especially because you want to wind up in Korea long term. Asia is a much bigger prestige-whore than the US.

The Lsat Airbender

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Re: BU $0 debt vs. Cornell $110k debt [NEVER BEEN THIS SPLIT MY ENTIRE LIFE]

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:58 pm

Res Ipsa Loquitter wrote:
Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:08 pm
Wild Card wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:40 pm
Cornell is a good school, and there is a big SK community there, which you may like.

Reputation-wise, and with respect to career prospects, they are on a different level.

And if you want to work in SK, Cornell will surely help you.

You could pay off $110K after 2+ years of biglaw. $200k+ is a different story.
How can OP pay off $110K debt in 2 years of Biglaw? It's not like Boston or more likely NYC are cheap places to live.
Have you even attempted to do the math? $60k/year is a little over half of a first-year associate's take-home pay after NYC taxes and making 401(k); the remaining $4.8k/month is plenty to live on.

Res Ipsa Loquitter

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Re: BU $0 debt vs. Cornell $110k debt [NEVER BEEN THIS SPLIT MY ENTIRE LIFE]

Post by Res Ipsa Loquitter » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:34 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:58 pm
Res Ipsa Loquitter wrote:
Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:08 pm
Wild Card wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:40 pm
Cornell is a good school, and there is a big SK community there, which you may like.

Reputation-wise, and with respect to career prospects, they are on a different level.

And if you want to work in SK, Cornell will surely help you.

You could pay off $110K after 2+ years of biglaw. $200k+ is a different story.
How can OP pay off $110K debt in 2 years of Biglaw? It's not like Boston or more likely NYC are cheap places to live.
Have you even attempted to do the math? $60k/year is a little over half of a first-year associate's take-home pay after NYC taxes and making 401(k); the remaining $4.8k/month is plenty to live on.
Yes, the math could be done by a seven year old. My point is that putting 50% of take-home toward loans is (at least to folks outside of this website) an extreme course of action that (1) few will truly have the discipline to do, and (2) will result in meaningful hardship. $4800 a month is doable but far from "plenty"

The Lsat Airbender

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Re: BU $0 debt vs. Cornell $110k debt [NEVER BEEN THIS SPLIT MY ENTIRE LIFE]

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:54 pm

Res Ipsa Loquitter wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:34 pm
The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:58 pm
Res Ipsa Loquitter wrote:
Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:08 pm
Wild Card wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:40 pm
Cornell is a good school, and there is a big SK community there, which you may like.

Reputation-wise, and with respect to career prospects, they are on a different level.

And if you want to work in SK, Cornell will surely help you.

You could pay off $110K after 2+ years of biglaw. $200k+ is a different story.
How can OP pay off $110K debt in 2 years of Biglaw? It's not like Boston or more likely NYC are cheap places to live.
Have you even attempted to do the math? $60k/year is a little over half of a first-year associate's take-home pay after NYC taxes and making 401(k); the remaining $4.8k/month is plenty to live on.
Yes, the math could be done by a seven year old. My point is that putting 50% of take-home toward loans is (at least to folks outside of this website) an extreme course of action that (1) few will truly have the discipline to do, and (2) will result in meaningful hardship. $4800 a month is doable but far from "plenty"
$4800 of disposable income is what you'd have on a salary of $110,000 (assuming you still max your 401(k)). That's roughly median household income in Manhattan. No models-and-bottles, but I wouldn't call it "meaningful hardship".

$2500 rent
$600 health insurance
$1000 food
$700 misc.

is a reasonable monthly budget for a thirty-ish single person. You're right that not everyone has the discipline to live in such penury but it's 100% doable, which is why your incredulous "How can OP pay off $110K debt in 2 years of Biglaw?" made me wonder if you'd actually run the numbers.

Also, Wild Card said "2+ years", not 24 months. If you give yourself from the start of stub year to the end of second year (to get bonus), which most people would do anyway if they'd decided to get to July of their second year, then paying down $110k is downright easy (that $4800 monthly take-home becomes more like $6k).

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Res Ipsa Loquitter

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Re: BU $0 debt vs. Cornell $110k debt [NEVER BEEN THIS SPLIT MY ENTIRE LIFE]

Post by Res Ipsa Loquitter » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:59 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:54 pm
Res Ipsa Loquitter wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:34 pm
The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:58 pm
Res Ipsa Loquitter wrote:
Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:08 pm
Wild Card wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:40 pm
Cornell is a good school, and there is a big SK community there, which you may like.

Reputation-wise, and with respect to career prospects, they are on a different level.

And if you want to work in SK, Cornell will surely help you.

You could pay off $110K after 2+ years of biglaw. $200k+ is a different story.
How can OP pay off $110K debt in 2 years of Biglaw? It's not like Boston or more likely NYC are cheap places to live.
Have you even attempted to do the math? $60k/year is a little over half of a first-year associate's take-home pay after NYC taxes and making 401(k); the remaining $4.8k/month is plenty to live on.
Yes, the math could be done by a seven year old. My point is that putting 50% of take-home toward loans is (at least to folks outside of this website) an extreme course of action that (1) few will truly have the discipline to do, and (2) will result in meaningful hardship. $4800 a month is doable but far from "plenty"
$4800 of disposable income is what you'd have on a salary of $110,000 (assuming you still max your 401(k)). That's roughly median household income in Manhattan. No models-and-bottles, but I wouldn't call it "meaningful hardship".

$2500 rent
$600 health insurance
$1000 food
$700 misc.

is a reasonable monthly budget for a thirty-ish single person. You're right that not everyone has the discipline to live in such penury but it's 100% doable, which is why your incredulous "How can OP pay off $110K debt in 2 years of Biglaw?" made me wonder if you'd actually run the numbers.

Also, Wild Card said "2+ years", not 24 months. If you give yourself from the start of stub year to the end of second year (to get bonus), which most people would do anyway if they'd decided to get to July of their second year, then paying down $110k is downright easy (that $4800 monthly take-home becomes more like $6k).
Agree that it's doable. Just think OP needs to understand both sides of this coin. Cornell is much safer than BU for biglaw, especially in Asia. But unless OP has a rich family providing a safety net, $110K debt is nothing to sneeze at, either.

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Re: BU $0 debt vs. Cornell $110k debt [NEVER BEEN THIS SPLIT MY ENTIRE LIFE]

Post by balaklava » Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:54 am

Current BU 2L with Biglaw SA.

Strong agree with previous posters about grinding at BU. It is a great school for learning the law. But the numbers aren't close to Cornell and 1L was a nightmare that many of us barely woke up from. I know several smart people who struck out. I would have gladly signed a deal to work an extra year (or even two) in Biglaw for a guaranteed spot, so I think Cornell is the easy choice here.

Something I am surprised not to see in this thread is that BU did well in 2021 but that was in the context of one of the hottest markets in recent memory. OP, would your calculus change if BU chances were 35% instead of 45%? Or even worse? Take the safe bet.

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