Harvard (some aid) v. UVA Dillard Forum

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cavalier1138

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Re: Harvard (some aid) v. UVA Dillard

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:11 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:03 pm
So, if I understand your most recent post in this thread, you draw the line at $100,000.

You wrote: "If the cost difference is six figures, I can't really imagine a scenario where Harvard is worth it."
Please don't try and use deposition tricks in an online forum. Or anywhere outside of an actual deposition, really.

As you'll note, I said that my "line in the sand" would vary based on someone's goals and actual costs. I also said that I would have a hard time justifying spending any extra money on a Harvard degree with generic biglaw goals.

But again, an admirable duck-and-weave on the actual question I asked. I assume you think that if you keep engaging in "Socratic dialogue," I'll just lose my head entirely and forget that I asked a question at all.

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Re: Harvard (some aid) v. UVA Dillard

Post by nixy » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:24 pm

I do wonder what the specific differences are. It’s hard to tell because no one can gone through both UVA and HLS attempting to accomplish the same exact goals. Of course HLS people think that HLS opens doors; I’d be interested to know if there’s some material contingent of UVA people who feel shut out of specific opportunities by virtue of having gone to UVA and not HLS (as opposed to not having high enough grades or right connections or experiences). There’s kind of no way to know that someone who went to UVA and ended up with something other than their ideal outcome would have been more successful at that outcome at HLS. Looking at the employment stats for these two schools doesn’t really shed a lot of light (the differences in numbers aren’t big enough; it’s not comparing HLS with a respectable but not top tier school).

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Re: Harvard (some aid) v. UVA Dillard

Post by LawTweet » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:55 pm

nixy wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:24 pm
I do wonder what the specific differences are. It’s hard to tell because no one can gone through both UVA and HLS attempting to accomplish the same exact goals. Of course HLS people think that HLS opens doors; I’d be interested to know if there’s some material contingent of UVA people who feel shut out of specific opportunities by virtue of having gone to UVA and not HLS (as opposed to not having high enough grades or right connections or experiences). There’s kind of no way to know that someone who went to UVA and ended up with something other than their ideal outcome would have been more successful at that outcome at HLS. Looking at the employment stats for these two schools doesn’t really shed a lot of light (the differences in numbers aren’t big enough; it’s not comparing HLS with a respectable but not top tier school).
Agree with this. Personally, I chose MVP with a named scholarship, graduated a couple of years ago, and am happy with my decision. I personally got the unicorn job I always wanted despite not having tippy top grades. I think the named scholarship stands out when you put it on your resume and gets you additional opportunities, but of course I'm just guessing.

I will admit I didn't have the world's easiest time getting a clerkship (as in, I got 5 interviews after mass applying to like 200 judges w/out professor calls or connections), but I didn't find my peers at Harvard faring any better. As in, my Harvard colleagues at my same job had a more difficult time landing federal clerkships. Only the Yale kids seemed to have a significantly easier time.

Anyway, I now have a non-zero chance of being able to fund my entire retirement by my early 30s, something I wouldn't realistically have been able to do if I went to HYS.

Make of this what you will. Long story short, you'll very likely be fine either way. I personally love having the security of no debt.

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Re: Harvard (some aid) v. UVA Dillard

Post by Ultramar vistas » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:45 pm

I think that “you’ll most likely be fine either way” is the most reasonable thing to say here.

In response to the folks above who question the value of any Harvard branded degree (with the exception of the extension school... heh), it’s hard to talk about without sounding hugely douchey, but the further you get from law school where everyone understands how this shit really works, people just fall over themselves at hearing you went to HLS. It’s global in recognition, and applies across a surprisingly broad reach of industries. For any given job, there’s probably a degree or experience that is better for it (duh - your HLS degree is not going to get you an engineering job) but it’s honestly magical in that people assume from the get go that you are smart, and treat you as such. Even in the biglaw environment where every 3rd attorney is from HYSCCN, you get cut additional slack as an associate for being from a tippy top school, extra opportunities and extra chances to fail. I know this happens because it happened to me and I’ve seen partners select summer and new first years for projects based on pedigree only. It isn’t good, but it is what it is.

Now, does any of that matter to your specific goals? Only you know. Is it worth six figures? Law student market seems to say yes sometimes. Intensely personal decision, just here to give my take, rather than the very stripped down economic one.

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Re: Harvard (some aid) v. UVA Dillard

Post by Joachim2017 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:38 pm

Ultramar vistas wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:45 pm

In response to the folks above who question the value of any Harvard branded degree (with the exception of the extension school... heh), it’s hard to talk about without sounding hugely douchey, but the further you get from law school where everyone understands how this shit really works, people just fall over themselves at hearing you went to HLS. It’s global in recognition, and applies across a surprisingly broad reach of industries. For any given job, there’s probably a degree or experience that is better for it (duh - your HLS degree is not going to get you an engineering job) but it’s honestly magical in that people assume from the get go that you are smart, and treat you as such. Even in the biglaw environment where every 3rd attorney is from HYSCCN, you get cut additional slack as an associate for being from a tippy top school, extra opportunities and extra chances to fail. I know this happens because it happened to me and I’ve seen partners select summer and new first years for projects based on pedigree only. It isn’t good, but it is what it is.

Now, does any of that matter to your specific goals? Only you know. Is it worth six figures? Law student market seems to say yes sometimes. Intensely personal decision, just here to give my take, rather than the very stripped down economic one.
This is the right answer. OBVIOUSLY counterfactuals are not possible -- you can't go back in time and go to the other school and compare options. The reason paying more to go to a place like Yale or Harvard or Stanford is that later in life you don't know for sure if your goals/desires will change, and those schools maximize optionality. It's (comparatively) easier to get tippy-top jobs, or transition to something where that kind of network pays dividends. It's hard to put a dollar number on that.

And of course, everyone has hindsight bias. Folks who didn't go to those schools are likely to insist it made no difference in whether or not, for example, they got an offer from Susman or Kellogg (and so a six-figure bonus which is 3x what you get in Big Law); folks who paid more to go to YLS or HLS are more likely to say that made a difference in whether they got that offer. in order to justify that decision. When you're young, and the future is uncertain, a priori it makes sense to hedge and value optionality because you don't know what you might want in the future.

Those asking for precise data about what career options are relatively increased by paying more to go to Y/H/S simply do not understand the nature of this decision, or are trying to project something deeper. It's really not a difficult concept, everyone just needs to make the decision for themselves, with the realization that you can't replace that hard decision with data.

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Re: Harvard (some aid) v. UVA Dillard

Post by Laserguy213 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:41 pm

Another point to keep in mind is that if you get grant aid at Harvard and you do biglaw either summer, they basically take all your earnings. So if you get 30k in aid, and make 35k in a summer, they actually deduct about 25k from your aid for the following year. If you only have 10k in aid, they just deduct all 10k.

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