UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R. Forum

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WhatIsLaw69

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UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by WhatIsLaw69 » Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:35 am

165-168, 3.1-3.3.

Goals: Not necessarily NYC market BigLaw, but I'd like to make close to the top of the market depending on where I end up. Eventually transition in-house/FedGov.

Location: Not tied to any one place. Prefer Midwest/Chicago, but I can live with working in Boston.

With deposit deadlines coming up, I need to figure out if I'm going to deposit somewhere or start looking for post-military employment for a year while I retake.

I have a full tuition offer from UIUC that I may be able to negotiate into a living stipend thanks to the GI bill. This would be tempting, as I'd love to work in Chicago and would graduate legitimately debt free if I could lock in that stipend. Looking at 2012/2013 their BigLaw numbers were around 20%.

Also have an offer from BC, but haven't gotten the scholly information. Not expecting much. but with the GI Bill, even 20k/yr from them would drop me under 50K of tuition loans. BigLaw numbers during the recession were similar.

Waitlists at BU, WUSTL, NDLS, GWU, Fordham, GULC. Not expecting to get off of any of them.

Admits from UNC, Minn, Iowa, W&L, UW. All would essentially be free. BL numbers aren't there, though. I'll be withdrawing.

Worried that next year will be just as competitive, so even if I do manage to crack 170, my offers won't be that much better. I'll also graduate at 35+. Not real old, but definitely not young for a BL associate. Also in the middle of a deployment, so unable to attend any virtual or in-person events. Hell, I haven't even gotten mail from anyone outside of Minnesota's admittens.

I'm being dumb, right? The answer is definitely RR?

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by crazywafflez » Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:47 am

Your question is a tough one. I mean, biglaw isn't the outcome for the median grad at UIUC, so going there isn't going to necessarily get you your goals (albeit, it does get you in your market). You can absolutely snag a govt job or small firm gig though from UIUC and going for free is a fantastic way to take a chance at your dream of biglaw, but at least if you fail you have no debt and a fine regional school. However, law school is 3 years- so if you don't get biglaw (your stated main goal), you've potentially wasted 3 years of income and time. And, you're in your 30s. I think this is a tricky one. BC gives you a better shot at biglaw- but again, it is still no guarantee, and it isn't in your market, and I'm guessing you'd be saddled with a lot of debt- I personally would take BC off the table. I'm not knowledgeable enough about the midwest to know how UIUC, U of Iowa or UW or Minnesota etc place in Chi or biglaw in general- to me, and I'd imagine to most employers, these are all equivalent schools. Maybe there's a bit of hometown rep for UIUC in Chi, so they place better there.
I also think your fear of retaking is valid, but I do think 3 more points could get you into WashU, plus even a package- which is kinda your sweet deal. I'm not entirely sure if getting 3 more points will break you into the T13, let alone with a scholarship, but maybe it would- and only you know your max from PTing and how much you practiced etc.
So in sum, I haven't been terribly helpful. I think your choices are (1) get realistic goals and go now to UIUC and hope you get biglaw, with the expectation you won't (but you'll be debt free and get to go younger) (2) retake and hope for a package to washU or sticker to like Michigan or Cornell etc. (3) don't go to law school
Sorry, you're in a tough spot. I'm not sure what I'd take. If biglaw weren't your main goal (or only), I'd take UIUC on scholly. Best of luck

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by WhatIsLaw69 » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:30 pm

crazywafflez wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:47 am
Your question is a tough one. I mean, biglaw isn't the outcome for the median grad at UIUC, so going there isn't going to necessarily get you your goals (albeit, it does get you in your market). You can absolutely snag a govt job or small firm gig though from UIUC and going for free is a fantastic way to take a chance at your dream of biglaw, but at least if you fail you have no debt and a fine regional school. However, law school is 3 years- so if you don't get biglaw (your stated main goal), you've potentially wasted 3 years of income and time. And, you're in your 30s. I think this is a tricky one. BC gives you a better shot at biglaw- but again, it is still no guarantee, and it isn't in your market, and I'm guessing you'd be saddled with a lot of debt- I personally would take BC off the table. I'm not knowledgeable enough about the midwest to know how UIUC, U of Iowa or UW or Minnesota etc place in Chi or biglaw in general- to me, and I'd imagine to most employers, these are all equivalent schools. Maybe there's a bit of hometown rep for UIUC in Chi, so they place better there.
I also think your fear of retaking is valid, but I do think 3 more points could get you into WashU, plus even a package- which is kinda your sweet deal. I'm not entirely sure if getting 3 more points will break you into the T13, let alone with a scholarship, but maybe it would- and only you know your max from PTing and how much you practiced etc.
So in sum, I haven't been terribly helpful. I think your choices are (1) get realistic goals and go now to UIUC and hope you get biglaw, with the expectation you won't (but you'll be debt free and get to go younger) (2) retake and hope for a package to washU or sticker to like Michigan or Cornell etc. (3) don't go to law school
Sorry, you're in a tough spot. I'm not sure what I'd take. If biglaw weren't your main goal (or only), I'd take UIUC on scholly. Best of luck
Thanks for the reply! You've basically summed up what's been going through my head. I'm under no delusions about BL from UIUC, and the fear of 3 years without income is very, very real. I'm worried about taking three years just to end up making 60-80k. I could get a job in that range without too much trouble right after I get out.

As for BC, the debt load wouldnt be horrendous unless they give me like $0 in aid. The GI Bill will foot roughly 50% of their yearly tuition, so even a modest award would really limit the debt. I'd also be getting the Boston housing allowance, which is roughly $3,000/month. That takes care of most living expenses and also clamps down on the debt total.

I think the answer is retake, and if I don't get into schools putting around median into Biglaw, try something else.

Thanks again!

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by CanadianWolf » Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:19 pm

What is your precise undergraduate GPA ?

If it is a 3.1 uGPA, then retaking & achieving a higher score may not get great results with respect to scholarship money. (I am unfamiliar with military benefits for law school, therefore I am not clear as to whether scholarship money is a key concern for you.)

Without more information, Illinois might become a great option if you can negotiate a living stipend to accompany your scholarship. Age is a factor to consider.

Much depends upon how ready you are to commit to serious preparation for a retake.

Familiarize yourself with lawschoolnumbers.com to determine what LSAT score you need to achieve to get into your target schools.

In short, because of your age and due to your current option to avoid law school debt, there is no clear answer.

WhatIsLaw69

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by WhatIsLaw69 » Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:52 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:19 pm
What is your precise undergraduate GPA ?

If it is a 3.1 uGPA, then retaking & achieving a higher score may not get great results with respect to scholarship money. (I am unfamiliar with military benefits for law school, therefore I am not clear as to whether scholarship money is a key concern for you.)
100% tution at a public school, 25k/yr at a private school. Plus an additional monthly housing allowance based on the average rent in the area. Debt is not a key concern here. These benefits plus a good bit of savings will keep my debt levels low.
Without more information, Illinois might become a great option if you can negotiate a living stipend to accompany your scholarship. Age is a factor to consider.

Much depends upon how ready you are to commit to serious preparation for a retake.

Familiarize yourself with lawschoolnumbers.com to determine what LSAT score you need to achieve to get into your target schools.
Very familiar with what I needed before this insanity of a cycle. My score is on the lower end of my PT range. Fairly confident I can break 170.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by Wubbles » Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:11 am

With the military benefits, I think a lot of people go to Michigan/Berkeley/UVA. If you are truly biglaw or bust, and have PTd above 170, I would go for the retake. Getting to go to anyone of those while only paying COL is a tremendous gift. UVA has a large military student population from what I gather due to this. Also, UVA likes splitters with high LSATs and low GPAs. Michigan first choice for Chicago, then UVA, then Berkeley. After that, if you miss on those and get into Northwestern (luck of the draw sometimes), I'd go there. But definitely try to get the most bang for your buck with a top 14 public school if you can and best of luck!

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by objctnyrhnr » Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:12 pm

Another perspective:

Industry periodicals suggest that biglaw performance and demand for biglaw service is trending upwards in a big way. As such, there might be reason to predict that your OCI year will hit biglaw at a [fully post pandemic] boom time.

Assuming that’s the case (and yes obviously it’s not 100% predictable), you might want to seriously consider BC if they give you a good scholly offer. If memory serves, BC places quite well during biglaw booms (Fordham is another school that I remember noting how much their biglaw placement increases in strong times). Might be worth checking out numbers from like 2017 give or take for these respective schools to see how they do in a boom before you make up your mind. And obviously the BC scholly # is an important datapoint.

In short, I respect your desire to look at these schools’ placements in a worst-case scenario situation, but honestly it seems like that we will be long past that by the time you get to OCI. Many are predicting a move to 200k or 210 based on recent PPP increases at the vault50.

Also, over the past handful of years a ton of new amlaw100 firms have set down offices in boston. Of those boston/Seattle sized cities, I think boston might be exhibiting some of the strongest growth in this arena and all of those firms are full of BC grads.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by WhatIsLaw69 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:34 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:12 pm
Another perspective:

Industry periodicals suggest that biglaw performance and demand for biglaw service is trending upwards in a big way. As such, there might be reason to predict that your OCI year will hit biglaw at a [fully post pandemic] boom time.
Oh wow, I haven't heard this. Can you give a little more detail, or is that basically it? I only ask because it's been pretty dour on the board lately, with respected posters encouraging 0Ls to look at post-2008 hiring classes. What you're suggesting would actually change the calculus quite a bit, especially if I get off a WL at Fordham or NDLS.

I understand what you're saying, but 2017 just happens to be BC's worst year for BL numbers in the last five. Just thought it was a funny coincidence.

Thanks for popping in the thread, you may have legitimately changed my decision.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by CalF123 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:17 am

I’d take BC. Decent big and midlaw placement in Boston. Some national portability also.

To be frank, T14s are not going to be desperate to make offers to an applicant with a 3.1 GPA (even with a 170+ LSAT, which is itself unlikely).

You have a decent offer at BC. It’s no T14- but you are very unlikely to get near a T14 unfortunately with your numbers.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by CalF123 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:35 am

I will add BC are rejecting or wait listing people with similar or better numbers than yours this year.

So you can’t even be sure of getting offers from there or similar schools next year.

WhatIsLaw69

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by WhatIsLaw69 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:46 am

CalF123 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:17 am
To be frank, T14s are not going to be desperate to make offers to an applicant with a 3.1 GPA (even with a 170+ LSAT, which is itself unlikely).

You have a decent offer at BC. It’s no T14- but you are very unlikely to get near a T14 unfortunately with your numbers.
I'm sorry, but barring this aberration of a cycle, I respectfully disagree. Self reported data from 2018 and 2019 puts applicants 2.9-3.1 and 169-172 at 46% at UVA, and over 30% at NU and UMich. WUSTL is over 75%, and that's almost as "near" the T14 as you can get.

Am I favored? No, but I don't believe I'd be "very unlikely" with a 170+. Is it high enough to risk sitting out a year? Maybe, that's what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe I'm way off base here, but I don't think it's as bleak a picture as you paint.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by CalF123 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:44 am

WhatIsLaw69 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:46 am
CalF123 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:17 am
To be frank, T14s are not going to be desperate to make offers to an applicant with a 3.1 GPA (even with a 170+ LSAT, which is itself unlikely).

You have a decent offer at BC. It’s no T14- but you are very unlikely to get near a T14 unfortunately with your numbers.
I'm sorry, but barring this aberration of a cycle, I respectfully disagree. Self reported data from 2018 and 2019 puts applicants 2.9-3.1 and 169-172 at 46% at UVA, and over 30% at NU and UMich. WUSTL is over 75%, and that's almost as "near" the T14 as you can get.

Am I favored? No, but I don't believe I'd be "very unlikely" with a 170+. Is it high enough to risk sitting out a year? Maybe, that's what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe I'm way off base here, but I don't think it's as bleak a picture as you paint.
The problem is you’ve got way too many variables.

1. You don’t have a 170+ LSAT at this point and you’re more likely than not not going to this time next year.
2. The chances you’re looking at for places like UMich and UVA are still low. A 30% chance of being admitted means you’ve got a 70% chance of not being.
3. You’re not applying in 2018 or 2019- Next cycle is unlikely to be as competitive as this year but I’d still bet it’ll be heaps more competitive than 18 or 19.
4. Frankly I think you’re lucky to have been accepted to somewhere like BC this cycle. They have rejected heaps of applicants with similar or better profiles to you. If next cycle is anything at all like this, you have a very real prospect of striking out at this level.
5. An offer at sticker at places like BC doesn't suggest a high chance of offers from even places like BU next cycle. Different if you’re getting decent scholly packages from these schools but I just don’t see sticker at BU converting to sticker at a UMich or UVA.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by objctnyrhnr » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:54 pm

WhatIsLaw69 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:34 pm
objctnyrhnr wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:12 pm
Another perspective:

Industry periodicals suggest that biglaw performance and demand for biglaw service is trending upwards in a big way. As such, there might be reason to predict that your OCI year will hit biglaw at a [fully post pandemic] boom time.
Oh wow, I haven't heard this. Can you give a little more detail, or is that basically it? I only ask because it's been pretty dour on the board lately, with respected posters encouraging 0Ls to look at post-2008 hiring classes. What you're suggesting would actually change the calculus quite a bit, especially if I get off a WL at Fordham or NDLS.

I understand what you're saying, but 2017 just happens to be BC's worst year for BL numbers in the last five. Just thought it was a funny coincidence.

Thanks for popping in the thread, you may have legitimately changed my decision.
Was it? Okay maybe I was off by a couple years. Point is that it might be worth checking the numbers during a boom. There are a handful of schools that go wayyyy up during booms with biglaw placement.

If you look at some of the threads for legal employment in this forum, you’ll see how slammed transactional (and to a slightly lesser extent) litigation practices are. These firms literally do not have enough bodies to do the work. Consequently the associates are crushed and leaving, which makes the problem even worse. Basically the industry predicted a doomsday because of Covid and for amlaw100 (give or take), the opposite occurred. Profits are skyrocketing and business is booming for the most part.

Law360, law.com, and other similar publications (the type that us associates wake up with on our smartphones) are reporting almost daily Re record profits for 2020 across the industry. Wilkie’s new bonus and another recent move by Dla (see atl over past week or two) suggests firms are preparing for a raise in starting salaries, although neither of those I just mentioned will be the first movers.

If I were predicting, I’d say that we’ll see some of the top biglaw numbers from the Bu/BC/Fordham/wash U-type schools in the next OCI cycle and the one after that.

Add this to what other posters have said here. Law school has gotten insanely more competitive this year, to a level that these schools didn’t necessarily predict early in the cycle. As a result, schollies and acceptances go down for numbers that would have nailed it a couple years ago. Schools like BC are likely to adjust their algorithms for accept/scholly next year accordingly.

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WhatIsLaw69

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by WhatIsLaw69 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:42 pm

CalF123 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:44 am
WhatIsLaw69 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:46 am
CalF123 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:17 am
To be frank, T14s are not going to be desperate to make offers to an applicant with a 3.1 GPA (even with a 170+ LSAT, which is itself unlikely).

You have a decent offer at BC. It’s no T14- but you are very unlikely to get near a T14 unfortunately with your numbers.
I'm sorry, but barring this aberration of a cycle, I respectfully disagree. Self reported data from 2018 and 2019 puts applicants 2.9-3.1 and 169-172 at 46% at UVA, and over 30% at NU and UMich. WUSTL is over 75%, and that's almost as "near" the T14 as you can get.

Am I favored? No, but I don't believe I'd be "very unlikely" with a 170+. Is it high enough to risk sitting out a year? Maybe, that's what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe I'm way off base here, but I don't think it's as bleak a picture as you paint.
The problem is you’ve got way too many variables.

1. You don’t have a 170+ LSAT at this point and you’re more likely than not not going to this time next year.
2. The chances you’re looking at for places like UMich and UVA are still low. A 30% chance of being admitted means you’ve got a 70% chance of not being.
3. You’re not applying in 2018 or 2019- Next cycle is unlikely to be as competitive as this year but I’d still bet it’ll be heaps more competitive than 18 or 19.
4. Frankly I think you’re lucky to have been accepted to somewhere like BC this cycle. They have rejected heaps of applicants with similar or better profiles to you. If next cycle is anything at all like this, you have a very real prospect of striking out at this level.
5. An offer at sticker at places like BC doesn't suggest a high chance of offers from even places like BU next cycle. Different if you’re getting decent scholly packages from these schools but I just don’t see sticker at BU converting to sticker at a UMich or UVA.
Thanks for the perspective. I prefer TLS over some other boards because of the honesty.

WhatIsLaw69

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by WhatIsLaw69 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:41 am

objctnyrhnr wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:54 pm
WhatIsLaw69 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:34 pm
objctnyrhnr wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:12 pm
Another perspective:

Industry periodicals suggest that biglaw performance and demand for biglaw service is trending upwards in a big way. As such, there might be reason to predict that your OCI year will hit biglaw at a [fully post pandemic] boom time.
Oh wow, I haven't heard this. Can you give a little more detail, or is that basically it? I only ask because it's been pretty dour on the board lately, with respected posters encouraging 0Ls to look at post-2008 hiring classes. What you're suggesting would actually change the calculus quite a bit, especially if I get off a WL at Fordham or NDLS.

I understand what you're saying, but 2017 just happens to be BC's worst year for BL numbers in the last five. Just thought it was a funny coincidence.

Thanks for popping in the thread, you may have legitimately changed my decision.
Was it? Okay maybe I was off by a couple years. Point is that it might be worth checking the numbers during a boom. There are a handful of schools that go wayyyy up during booms with biglaw placement.

If you look at some of the threads for legal employment in this forum, you’ll see how slammed transactional (and to a slightly lesser extent) litigation practices are. These firms literally do not have enough bodies to do the work. Consequently the associates are crushed and leaving, which makes the problem even worse. Basically the industry predicted a doomsday because of Covid and for amlaw100 (give or take), the opposite occurred. Profits are skyrocketing and business is booming for the most part.

Law360, law.com, and other similar publications (the type that us associates wake up with on our smartphones) are reporting almost daily Re record profits for 2020 across the industry. Wilkie’s new bonus and another recent move by Dla (see atl over past week or two) suggests firms are preparing for a raise in starting salaries, although neither of those I just mentioned will be the first movers.

If I were predicting, I’d say that we’ll see some of the top biglaw numbers from the Bu/BC/Fordham/wash U-type schools in the next OCI cycle and the one after that.

Add this to what other posters have said here. Law school has gotten insanely more competitive this year, to a level that these schools didn’t necessarily predict early in the cycle. As a result, schollies and acceptances go down for numbers that would have nailed it a couple years ago. Schools like BC are likely to adjust their algorithms for accept/scholly next year accordingly.
Yeah this really adds a wrinkle. In a good way, though, I suppose.

Ha I was expecting a lot of RR comments, and got the exact opposite.

Thanks for popping in, I appreciate it.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by Dcc617 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:13 am

Keep 0L advice in perspective OP (I’m assuming a lot of the “just go to BC” crowd are 0Ls.

You should only go to a school if you’d be happy with their median outcome. It does not sound like you’d be happy with median outcome at either of the schools listed, so you’d be risking spending 3 years and tens of thousands to get a disappointing outcome. That seems dumb.

If your goal is to get biglaw, you have to go T14 to be safe. If your goal is not biglaw, then you can go to other schools to manage the debt.

All this is moot if you think you left LSAT points on the table. A couple points could save you tens of thousands. Besides this sounds like a weird cycle this year.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by CalF123 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:32 am

Dcc617 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:13 am
Keep 0L advice in perspective OP (I’m assuming a lot of the “just go to BC” crowd are 0Ls.

You should only go to a school if you’d be happy with their median outcome. It does not sound like you’d be happy with median outcome at either of the schools listed, so you’d be risking spending 3 years and tens of thousands to get a disappointing outcome. That seems dumb.

If your goal is to get biglaw, you have to go T14 to be safe. If your goal is not biglaw, then you can go to other schools to manage the debt.

All this is moot if you think you left LSAT points on the table. A couple points could save you tens of thousands. Besides this sounds like a weird cycle this year.
You’re right that T14 gives the best shot at biglaw (although even then it’s far from guaranteed).

But there is no point advising T14 for applicants who are unfortunately just not going (or are very unlikely to) get near it.

No one is claiming BC has T14 employment prospects. But it is a very solid option for applicants who cannot get T14 and are happy to work in Boston.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by Dcc617 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:58 am

CalF123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:32 am
Dcc617 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:13 am
Keep 0L advice in perspective OP (I’m assuming a lot of the “just go to BC” crowd are 0Ls.

You should only go to a school if you’d be happy with their median outcome. It does not sound like you’d be happy with median outcome at either of the schools listed, so you’d be risking spending 3 years and tens of thousands to get a disappointing outcome. That seems dumb.

If your goal is to get biglaw, you have to go T14 to be safe. If your goal is not biglaw, then you can go to other schools to manage the debt.

All this is moot if you think you left LSAT points on the table. A couple points could save you tens of thousands. Besides this sounds like a weird cycle this year.
You’re right that T14 gives the best shot at biglaw (although even then it’s far from guaranteed).

But there is no point advising T14 for applicants who are unfortunately just not going (or are very unlikely to) get near it.

No one is claiming BC has T14 employment prospects. But it is a very solid option for applicants who cannot get T14 and are happy to work in Boston.
Yeah, which does not sound like what OP wants at all.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by WhatIsLaw69 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:55 am

Dcc617 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:13 am
Keep 0L advice in perspective OP (I’m assuming a lot of the “just go to BC” crowd are 0Ls.

You should only go to a school if you’d be happy with their median outcome. It does not sound like you’d be happy with median outcome at either of the schools listed, so you’d be risking spending 3 years and tens of thousands to get a disappointing outcome. That seems dumb.

If your goal is to get biglaw, you have to go T14 to be safe. If your goal is not biglaw, then you can go to other schools to manage the debt.

All this is moot if you think you left LSAT points on the table. A couple points could save you tens of thousands. Besides this sounds like a weird cycle this year.
Thanks. You're pretty spot on with the goals and exactly right about the fear of spending 3 years. I definitely left points on the table. The take was several years ago during a series of very busy pre-deployment work ups. With dedicated studying and the new at home formatting, I'm very confident.

I really don't think my chances with a 170+ are as bleak as the other poster, although I do honestly appreciate the point of view. I just don't think I lose all that much by attempting the retake. Objctnyrhnr's comments about the possible hiring boom do give me pause, though. BC/BU/Fordham/NDLS type schools have all had pretty impressive BL numbers while the economy has been humming.

Debt is really not as big an issue for me as it may be for others. The G.I. Bill really is a huge boon ("sticker" at a school is really at least 40% tuition at private schools), and I have large enough savings to cover most of the rest. Even at sticker, I'd be graduating from BC somewhere under $50k all in. The housing allowance alone in a city like Boston is $3,000/month.

It isn't the debt. It's the employment numbers I'm after. BC is definitely more attractive after making this thread.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by Dcc617 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:01 am

I just wouldn’t leave points on the table. And look only at the employment numbers for assessing employment, not half-baked speculation about hiring from 0Ls.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by objctnyrhnr » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:31 am

Dcc617 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:01 am
I just wouldn’t leave points on the table. And look only at the employment numbers for assessing employment, not half-baked speculation about hiring from 0Ls.
“Anybody who suggests anything other than t14 or bust must be a 0L so you shouldn’t listen to them.”

This is CLASSIC TLS. Don’t you realize that the decision Re whether to go to a regional powerhouse t30 with a low cost of attendance is way more nuanced than what you’re making it out to be?

OP, I’m not saying definitely go to BC. I put up a perspective worth considering. Either way, I wouldn’t listen to this guy/girl who is just parroting the standard TLS rhetoric because they don’t know any better.

Obviously I’m not a 0L. I’m a mid level lit associate on the hiring committee of my v25. We have a big office in boston, so I’m on the pulse of the market in boston, and have been for the past several years at least. I don’t want to provide that much more info about my own situation for the purpose of maintaining an ounce of anonymity, but feel free to PM if you’d like to talk in more specifics.

Re the boston market, as an illustration of what I’m describing, take mintz levin as an example. Not an amazing firm nationally by any stretch, but it pays market or just below and is chock full of BC grads in its very large boston office. Probably like amlaw90 or so. Anyway, they just exhibited fairly unprecedented double digit profit growth. I know this because I read it in one of the industry periodicals about a week ago (which is what mid level associates do; 0Ls do not do this). This isn’t unusual. A large number of firms are showing growth approaching that.

Simply put, there is far more business right now than was anticipated. Mid levels everywhere are overwhelmed (just peruse “active topics” on this forum if you want corroboration). Firms are probably going to institute a series of special bonuses just to keep the associates they have. Wilkie was first to do this the other day.

All of these factors, together with overall economic projections in the US, lead me to make my prediction that biglaw hiring is going to boom for the next two years. My firm and its peers kept relatively conservative on summer offers this time around just to be safe, but some (like me) think that was a mistake. if I’m right, this is even more reason to think that OCI hiring is going to pop over the next year or two.

Obviously it’s just a prediction of mine, but it’s a well reasoned one and therefore worth considering if you’re going back and forth between these different options.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by Dcc617 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:49 am

Cool man. Did you read the OP? OP wants biglaw.

Yes, BC has pretty good placement. But it's not safe biglaw from median. And sure there are firms with a lot of BC grads, but you're doing the classic survivorship bias.

Ultimately, OP needs to decide if they're happy with the median/likely outcome from BC. If not, don't go. Especially with a big independent scholarship in the pocket and with points on the board.

I'm not T14 or bust, obviously. I'm a "don't count on being top third of your class at a law school so make sure you're happy with the median outcome at a reasonable cost."

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by CalF123 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:45 pm

Dcc617 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:49 am
Cool man. Did you read the OP? OP wants biglaw.

Yes, BC has pretty good placement. But it's not safe biglaw from median. And sure there are firms with a lot of BC grads, but you're doing the classic survivorship bias.

Ultimately, OP needs to decide if they're happy with the median/likely outcome from BC. If not, don't go. Especially with a big independent scholarship in the pocket and with points on the board.

I'm not T14 or bust, obviously. I'm a "don't count on being top third of your class at a law school so make sure you're happy with the median outcome at a reasonable cost."
What median at a T14 gets you is irrelevant because the OP has no offers from T14 schools and is IMO highly unlikely to receive any in future.

A just above median (top 40% or so) student at BC has a very strong chance of biglaw. I would expect a median student to have a very strong chance of biglaw over the next few years as firms increase recruitment.

The difference in placement between median at a T14 and median at BC is not even worth considering IMO for the OP.

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by Wubbles » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:42 pm

CalF123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:45 pm
Dcc617 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:49 am
Cool man. Did you read the OP? OP wants biglaw.

Yes, BC has pretty good placement. But it's not safe biglaw from median. And sure there are firms with a lot of BC grads, but you're doing the classic survivorship bias.

Ultimately, OP needs to decide if they're happy with the median/likely outcome from BC. If not, don't go. Especially with a big independent scholarship in the pocket and with points on the board.

I'm not T14 or bust, obviously. I'm a "don't count on being top third of your class at a law school so make sure you're happy with the median outcome at a reasonable cost."
What median at a T14 gets you is irrelevant because the OP has no offers from T14 schools and is IMO highly unlikely to receive any in future.

A just above median (top 40% or so) student at BC has a very strong chance of biglaw. I would expect a median student to have a very strong chance of biglaw over the next few years as firms increase recruitment.

The difference in placement between median at a T14 and median at BC is not even worth considering IMO for the OP.
If OP was PTing in the 170s they can almost certainly test at that level with some more practice and get into a T14. 3.1 gpa does not bar T14 acceptance, and there is an ever so slight military bump at UVA from what I gather. And with OP's funding from the military they do not need scholarship money like most on here, the bar is simply getting into one of them and preferably one of the state schools, like UVA.

OP wants midwest biglaw. If there's a decent chance at a cheap t14, I could not in good conscience recommend going to BC

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Re: UIUC, BC, or retake/reapply? Really just want to make sure the answer is indeed R/R.

Post by Dcc617 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:02 pm

Plus, if OP ends up being in a situation where Midwest biglaw isn't realistic, then the choice becomes go to law school or not, not how to make the most of going to a not ideal law school.

The safe option for Midwest biglaw is T14. Going elsewhere to achieve that goal is risky, especially given the money and opportunity cost of law school.

And top 40% is VERY clearly not a safe bet for anybody, given how random law school can be, especially as a 0L.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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