Ruby v. Hamilton v. Yale Forum

[CourtroomBrown]

Going for BigLaw then in-house when I burn out. Haven’t received aid info from Yale but it’ll probably be around 100k. Also waiting to hear of I get accepted into the Doctoroff program at Chicago.

I’m assuming this is between Hamilton and Ruby. I know Ruby’s a lot more but I’ve heard CLS is pretty much a BigLaw factory do not sure how to value that. Interested in hearing y’all’s thoughts.

Thanks in advance.

[replevin123]

I chose a Ruby over H with a big aid package (didn't apply to Columbia, waitlisted at Yale). I can only speak to the Ruby, but it was great. The stipend is a big help, there are small quarterly events which were nice, you get a mentor but how useful that is varies, and that's about it (unless they've changed it recently). COL in Hyde Park is going to be way better than NY and it's easy enough to get downtown. Consider your preference for class size. Chicago is small and in that sense you're a little more special/unique. The main campus is beautiful. Seemed like anyone who wanted biglaw got it but other Chicago students can chime in. It seems you don't care about clerking, but Chicago does pretty well in case you change your mind (some people do, I did and ended up clerking).

[crazywafflez]

I'd take the Ruby. CCN are all peers, and I don't think C really edges out Chi in biglaw (it has stronger networks in NYC, obviously, but Chi can just as easily go there). Ruby is just too good to pass up, and if you're interested in clerking I think Chi has a better network for that (at least from what I've heard).
I don't see a reason to pick Yale unless you're really craving to only do academia (not that CCN shuts that door, but as you know, it is just easier from Y).
I'd take the Ruby here.

[logan3000]

I would just add that if you know you want to end up in NYC, I think it's justifiable to sacrifice the stipend/COA difference (a relatively small amount of money all things considered) to be in the city you want to practice for an extra three years & start to get settled/make connections etc. (+ not have to deal with moving back and forth in the summers).

Otherwise though, yeah objectively hard to beat the Ruby.

[The Lsat Airbender]

I would just add that if you know you want to end up in NYC, I think it's justifiable to sacrifice the stipend/COA difference (a relatively small amount of money all things considered) to be in the city you want to practice for an extra three years & start to get settled/make connections etc. (+ not have to deal with moving back and forth in the summers).

Otherwise though, yeah objectively hard to beat the Ruby.

Agree with this take. OP is an adult and is allowed to waste a bunch of money living in NYC for three years if that's what they want. Personally I think a NYC preference weighs in favor of Chicago, because it's a once-in-a-lifetime chance to experience another city, but to each their own.

Obviously, absent a strong desire to be physically located in Manhattan for law school, Chicago is the easy choice here. Yale isn't worth the price for biglaw.

[CourtroomBrown]

I chose a Ruby over H with a big aid package (didn't apply to Columbia, waitlisted at Yale). I can only speak to the Ruby, but it was great. The stipend is a big help, there are small quarterly events which were nice, you get a mentor but how useful that is varies, and that's about it (unless they've changed it recently). COL in Hyde Park is going to be way better than NY and it's easy enough to get downtown. Consider your preference for class size. Chicago is small and in that sense you're a little more special/unique. The main campus is beautiful. Seemed like anyone who wanted biglaw got it but other Chicago students can chime in. It seems you don't care about clerking, but Chicago does pretty well in case you change your mind (some people do, I did and ended up clerking).

Thank you for your input! I’m a non-Citizen so I don’t think it’s possible for me to clerk, but glad to hear that you had such a great experience choosing the Ruby. I’m definitely a fan of smaller class sizes, however I was willing to give that up for the supposedly better big law placement at Columbia. Glad to know their functioanlly equivalent.

[CourtroomBrown]

I'd take the Ruby. CCN are all peers, and I don't think C really edges out Chi in biglaw (it has stronger networks in NYC, obviously, but Chi can just as easily go there). Ruby is just too good to pass up, and if you're interested in clerking I think Chi has a better network for that (at least from what I've heard).
I don't see a reason to pick Yale unless you're really craving to only do academia (not that CCN shuts that door, but as you know, it is just easier from Y).
I'd take the Ruby here.

Thank you for your input. I’m a non-Citizen so not able to clerk, but after hearing that tbe BL placements for Chicago and Columbia are so similar it seems like I’d get along just fine taking the Ruby.

Also I was really considering Yale simply for their relaxed grading system. I’ve heard from students its extremely easy to get placements at top firms because of it, do you think such reduced stress is worth the extra costs?

[CourtroomBrown]

I would just add that if you know you want to end up in NYC, I think it's justifiable to sacrifice the stipend/COA difference (a relatively small amount of money all things considered) to be in the city you want to practice for an extra three years & start to get settled/make connections etc. (+ not have to deal with moving back and forth in the summers).

Otherwise though, yeah objectively hard to beat the Ruby.

Honestly, I’m not really dead set on NY, as I’ve heard Chicago and LA both have great firms and COL. I have heard though, that the firms in NY have the best connections for eventually moving in house, is this actually the case?

[CourtroomBrown]

I would just add that if you know you want to end up in NYC, I think it's justifiable to sacrifice the stipend/COA difference (a relatively small amount of money all things considered) to be in the city you want to practice for an extra three years & start to get settled/make connections etc. (+ not have to deal with moving back and forth in the summers).

Otherwise though, yeah objectively hard to beat the Ruby.

Agree with this take. OP is an adult and is allowed to waste a bunch of money living in NYC for three years if that's what they want. Personally I think a NYC preference weighs in favor of Chicago, because it's a once-in-a-lifetime chance to experience another city, but to each their own.

Obviously, absent a strong desire to be physically located in Manhattan for law school, Chicago is the easy choice here. Yale isn't worth the price for biglaw.

Thank you for your input! Quick question, I’ve heard that Yale’s grading system makes it extremly easy to get placement and you wouldn’t have to stress about grades much at all. Do you think this would be worth the extra cost or is it simply not that difficult to land well on Chicagos curve?

[logan3000]

I would just add that if you know you want to end up in NYC, I think it's justifiable to sacrifice the stipend/COA difference (a relatively small amount of money all things considered) to be in the city you want to practice for an extra three years & start to get settled/make connections etc. (+ not have to deal with moving back and forth in the summers).

Otherwise though, yeah objectively hard to beat the Ruby.

Honestly, I’m not really dead set on NY, as I’ve heard Chicago and LA both have great firms and COL. I have heard though, that the firms in NY have the best connections for eventually moving in house, is this actually the case?

In that case, yeah def take the Ruby. You can get to know Chicago + check out NYC for a summer if you want. You'll be able to land NYC BL from Chicago no problem.

My point was only that taking the Hamilton would make sense only if you want to go ahead and get settled in NYC - it's not going to help you land NYC any more than Chicago would.

[CourtroomBrown]

I would just add that if you know you want to end up in NYC, I think it's justifiable to sacrifice the stipend/COA difference (a relatively small amount of money all things considered) to be in the city you want to practice for an extra three years & start to get settled/make connections etc. (+ not have to deal with moving back and forth in the summers).

Otherwise though, yeah objectively hard to beat the Ruby.

Honestly, I’m not really dead set on NY, as I’ve heard Chicago and LA both have great firms and COL. I have heard though, that the firms in NY have the best connections for eventually moving in house, is this actually the case?

In that case, yeah def take the Ruby. You can get to know Chicago + check out NYC for a summer if you want. You'll be able to land NYC BL from Chicago no problem.

My point was only that taking the Hamilton would make sense only if you want to go ahead and get settled in NYC - it's not going to help you land NYC any more than Chicago would.

Sounds good, thank you.

[Anon-non-anon]

I would just add that if you know you want to end up in NYC, I think it's justifiable to sacrifice the stipend/COA difference (a relatively small amount of money all things considered) to be in the city you want to practice for an extra three years & start to get settled/make connections etc. (+ not have to deal with moving back and forth in the summers).

Otherwise though, yeah objectively hard to beat the Ruby.

Agree with this take. OP is an adult and is allowed to waste a bunch of money living in NYC for three years if that's what they want. Personally I think a NYC preference weighs in favor of Chicago, because it's a once-in-a-lifetime chance to experience another city, but to each their own.

Obviously, absent a strong desire to be physically located in Manhattan for law school, Chicago is the easy choice here. Yale isn't worth the price for biglaw.

Thank you for your input! Quick question, I’ve heard that Yale’s grading system makes it extremly easy to get placement and you wouldn’t have to stress about grades much at all. Do you think this would be worth the extra cost or is it simply not that difficult to land well on Chicagos curve?

This is true from my understanding. If you're really set on big law / inhouse, the debt isn't as important either and you can walk in the door knowing you've accomplished your goals. I agree with others that Chicago overall would probably make more sense (it's a cool city) but there is something to the 99.9% certainty of success (as opposed to slightly lower certainty at chicago/columbia) plus the shiny Yale law degree forever.

I'd try to figure out total cost of attendance difference and weigh that against the little extra certainty, factoring in that New Haven sucks

[Libya]

If your goal is just biglaw I’d take the Ruby

[Libya]

Double post

[Wild Card]

If money is no object, then you should prefer Yale, because it's much more selective than the other law schools.

Otherwise, Chicago, because Ruby covers housing, and you also get mentoring and networking, IIRC.

If it matters, if you don't do as well as you'd hoped at Chicago/Columbia, when you graduate, you'll just be another Chicago/Columbia graduate. Whereas a Yale degree would set you apart on its own, even if you don't do as well as you had hoped.

[nixy]

Your average Columbia and Chicago grads are in pretty good positions, too. We’re not talking Yale v. Rutgers or something.

[cheeseballs]

Congrats! Take the Ruby.

First, enjoy the opportunity to live in Chicago for three years. Although I prefer NYC, it’s a great place to be. Second, you can get more “prestigious” NY biglaw jobs relatively deeper into the class than at Columbia or NYU. I think this is because only a small segment of the class wants NY and the grading scale obscures things a bit.

[CanadianWolf]

Have you considered the consequences if you are admitted to the Doctoroff Business Leadership Program with respect to employment ?

What was your undergraduate major ?

Is a JD/MBA dual degree program of interest to you ?

I ask because of your stated interest in the Doctoroff Business Leaders program and its expectations.

P.S. Do you want a career in business or in law ? The required summer internship for the Doctoroff Program should be researched to determine the type & function of the typical placement. It is not easy to switch between business & law.

[CourtroomBrown]

Congrats! Take the Ruby.

First, enjoy the opportunity to live in Chicago for three years. Although I prefer NYC, it’s a great place to be. Second, you can get more “prestigious” NY biglaw jobs relatively deeper into the class than at Columbia or NYU. I think this is because only a small segment of the class wants NY and the grading scale obscures things a bit.

Thank you for your response! I had no idea about the depth benefit at Chicago due to only a small segment of the class interested in that field, that’s fantastic to hear. I had a quick question though. Does the prestige of the firm I end up working at effect the rest of my career? In other words, would my career be hurt in any way if I worked at a V25 instead of a V10? Just curious to know how rankings effect careers beyond law school.

[CourtroomBrown]

Have you considered the consequences if you are admitted to the Doctoroff Business Leadership Program with respect to employment ?

What was your undergraduate major ?

Is a JD/MBA dual degree program of interest to you ?

I ask because of your stated interest in the Doctoroff Business Leaders program and its expectations.

P.S. Do you want a career in business or in law ? The required summer internship for the Doctoroff Program should be researched to determine the type & function of the typical placement. It is not easy to switch between business & law.

Okay, from what I’ve read with Doctoroff profiles, most do in-house 1L summer positions, then just do firm work afterward. The program requires you do a 1L and 2L summer business internship, however it seems that the school is okay with associate work in place of the business internship.

I majored in business management and got a BBA for my undergraduate, but I do want to do a career in corporate law (M&A) as it was the most interesting part of my undergraduate studies, relatively speaking. I mentioned the Doctoroff program because it seems like a cool opportunity to guarantee in-house experience first year, get mentored throughout law school, and take some courses that will hopefully be relevant to M&A practice. Not my primary focus, however, just seemed like a cool addition to the total package being offered by Chicago. Also, JD/MBA doesn’t interest me.

[CanadianWolf]

My understanding is that the Doctoroff only requires a business internship between the first & second year of law school, and does not require a second internship.

I like the 5 courses required for the business leadership program. So long as the internship is in the in-house legal dept.--as opposed to an MBA type management position--then I agree that the Doctoroff could be a benefit when dealing in corporate matters & relationships. (The list of recent internship placements lacked any law firm placements so I was not sure as to the type of internship.)

As an aside, another poster who has significant m&a experience did share that his biglaw firm complained about associates lack of familiarity with financial statements.

[cheeseballs]

Congrats! Take the Ruby.

First, enjoy the opportunity to live in Chicago for three years. Although I prefer NYC, it’s a great place to be. Second, you can get more “prestigious” NY biglaw jobs relatively deeper into the class than at Columbia or NYU. I think this is because only a small segment of the class wants NY and the grading scale obscures things a bit.

Thank you for your response! I had no idea about the depth benefit at Chicago due to only a small segment of the class interested in that field, that’s fantastic to hear. I had a quick question though. Does the prestige of the firm I end up working at effect the rest of my career? In other words, would my career be hurt in any way if I worked at a V25 instead of a V10? Just curious to know how rankings effect careers beyond law school.

V25 v V10 matters some on the margin, but can easily be outweighed by practice group and other preferences. Prestige matters once you move into a tier of firms that may not be able to keep up with the big guys financially. I also think there is a good argument that the real sweet spot in biglaw for QOL, pay, quality of work and exits is firms in the ~20-40 range.

[CourtroomBrown]

My understanding is that the Doctoroff only requires a business internship between the first & second year of law school, and does not require a second internship.

I like the 5 courses required for the business leadership program. So long as the internship is in the in-house legal dept.--as opposed to an MBA type management position--then I agree that the Doctoroff could be a benefit when dealing in corporate matters & relationships. (The list of recent internship placements lacked any law firm placements so I was not sure as to the type of internship.)

As an aside, another poster who has significant m&a experience did share that his biglaw firm complained about associates lack of familiarity with financial statements.

Oh thank you for the clarification, that’s really good to hear. If anything, I can email in if I receive the offer and ask for more details, but it seems like a lot of the 1L positions were just in-house legal roles so it sounds like a great opportunity especially in addition to the Ruby.

[CourtroomBrown]

Congrats! Take the Ruby.

First, enjoy the opportunity to live in Chicago for three years. Although I prefer NYC, it’s a great place to be. Second, you can get more “prestigious” NY biglaw jobs relatively deeper into the class than at Columbia or NYU. I think this is because only a small segment of the class wants NY and the grading scale obscures things a bit.

Thank you for your response! I had no idea about the depth benefit at Chicago due to only a small segment of the class interested in that field, that’s fantastic to hear. I had a quick question though. Does the prestige of the firm I end up working at effect the rest of my career? In other words, would my career be hurt in any way if I worked at a V25 instead of a V10? Just curious to know how rankings effect careers beyond law school.

V25 v V10 matters some on the margin, but can easily be outweighed by practice group and other preferences. Prestige matters once you move into a tier of firms that may not be able to keep up with the big guys financially. I also think there is a good argument that the real sweet spot in biglaw for QOL, pay, quality of work and exits is firms in the ~20-40 range.

Very interesting. When you mention the difference mattering on some margin, is that just referring to exit opportunities or compensation packages as one moves higher up the firm hierarchy?

Also I had heard about the QOL possibly improving as one moves slightly down the rankings. Is there any way to find out how good a firm will be in terms of QOL (i.e. finding that sweet spot) before getting employment there, or is more of a ‘start working and hope for the best’ type situation?

[jsnow212]

Congrats! Take the Ruby.

First, enjoy the opportunity to live in Chicago for three years. Although I prefer NYC, it’s a great place to be. Second, you can get more “prestigious” NY biglaw jobs relatively deeper into the class than at Columbia or NYU. I think this is because only a small segment of the class wants NY and the grading scale obscures things a bit.

Thank you for your response! I had no idea about the depth benefit at Chicago due to only a small segment of the class interested in that field, that’s fantastic to hear. I had a quick question though. Does the prestige of the firm I end up working at effect the rest of my career? In other words, would my career be hurt in any way if I worked at a V25 instead of a V10? Just curious to know how rankings effect careers beyond law school.

V25 v V10 matters some on the margin, but can easily be outweighed by practice group and other preferences. Prestige matters once you move into a tier of firms that may not be able to keep up with the big guys financially. I also think there is a good argument that the real sweet spot in biglaw for QOL, pay, quality of work and exits is firms in the ~20-40 range.

Very interesting. When you mention the difference mattering on some margin, is that just referring to exit opportunities or compensation packages as one moves higher up the firm hierarchy?

Also I had heard about the QOL possibly improving as one moves slightly down the rankings. Is there any way to find out how good a firm will be in terms of QOL (i.e. finding that sweet spot) before getting employment there, or is more of a ‘start working and hope for the best’ type situation?

This is a question best left answered by going through old threads in the employment forum and figuring it out during law school. None of this has bearing on deciding between T6 schools.