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My ideal outcome is fed clerking -> Big Law litigation for 2-5y -> smaller firm lit or public crim law for QoL, in DC or Virginia. I know neither of these schools is ideal for this track, but I am uncomfortable with pigeonhole-ing myself into BL-or-bust by taking on a large debt load at a better school. I would much rather reduce my downside risk and end up taking a more modest job out of school without the debt to worry about. By looking around at past applicant outcomes, it seems my 3.5high/17low gives me a good chance at 90%+ scholarships to WUSTL and Mason. Interviews with both schools went well, but I'm still waiting for decisions. I also applied to UVA/GTown/GW/W&L (among others), but I think the cost will be too much.

I'm fortunate to be in good shape to cover CoL with a combo of savings and family help, so I only have tuition debt to worry about. If another school bought me a much stronger chance at my ideal outcome, I would maybe be willing to take on as much debt as I could pay off in the 1-1.5 years that new BL associates can reasonably expect, but any more than that feels unnecessarily risky.

How hard is it to get back to DC/Virginia from WUSTL? They have much higher overall BL/FC stats than Mason, but seem to place about the same number of them in DC. If I don't get grades to be competitive for BL from WUSTL, how much harder is it to get back to DC/Virginia for something else? Are the FC/BL people from Mason more reliant on individual connections than students at schools with more prestige, or is a high class rank enough to open the door on its own?

Thank you for any insight!

gamecocklaw wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:02 pm

How hard is it to get back to DC/Virginia from WUSTL? They have much higher overall BL/FC stats than Mason, but seem to place about the same number of them in DC. If I don't get grades to be competitive for BL from WUSTL, how much harder is it to get back to DC/Virginia for something else? Are the FC/BL people from Mason more reliant on individual connections than students at schools with more prestige, or is a high class rank enough to open the door on its own?

Thank you for any insight!

I don't claim to be an expert but I would bet that self-selection is playing a pretty big role in the DC placement numbers between the two. Until you have firm scholarship offers in hand for both its not possible to give a solid opinion, but based on your post, I would strongly favor WUSTL.

I'd be surprised if your numbers didn't net you a decent scholarship in the T13, which will serve your aspirations much better than a full ride to WUSTL. Being debt-averse is good; but don't be so scared by debt that you choose a school like WUSTL for free over UVA (or any other lower T13) for $100k.

(And don't go to GMU.)

cavalier1138 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:48 pm

I'd be surprised if your numbers didn't net you a decent scholarship in the T13, which will serve your aspirations much better than a full ride to WUSTL. Being debt-averse is good; but don't be so scared by debt that you choose a school like WUSTL for free over UVA (or any other lower T13) for $100k.

(And don't go to GMU.)

As far as T14 goes, I applied to UVA, GTown, and Penn. Seems like 1/4 to 1/3 of admits around my stats get $-$$ from them. Maybe should've added NU or Duke, but T6 is very likely out of reach and wasn't interested in Cornell/Berkeley/Mich. If I get closer to $$ at Penn or UVA, agreed that would probably be worth it. Odds seem to be that debt would actually be more like 200k+ which makes it much harder. I don't think my geographic preference is strong enough to make GTown worth 6 fig debt compared to zero debt at WUSTL, and the employment outcomes don't seem that drastically different, although I suppose that's why you said T13 instead of T14.

Care to expand at all on the blanket nix to GMU? I know fed clerking and BL would be a long shot from there, but ~15-20% isn't abysmal, and I would be ok with the median outcome if I have no debt afterward.

gamecocklaw wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:08 pm

As far as T14 goes, I applied to UVA, GTown, and Penn. Seems like 1/4 to 1/3 of admits around my stats get $-$$ from them. Maybe should've added NU or Duke, but T6 is very likely out of reach and wasn't interested in Cornell/Berkeley/Mich.

That was a bad application strategy, and you should fix it (not "should have," because you aren't even late in the cycle yet). There's no reason you should be leaving any of the lower T13 off the table, and CCN--at least Columbia and NYU--are not out of play, depending on exactly where in the 170s your LSAT falls.

gamecocklaw wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:08 pm

Care to expand at all on the blanket nix to GMU? I know fed clerking and BL would be a long shot from there, but ~15-20% isn't abysmal, and I would be ok with the median outcome if I have no debt afterward.

15-20% isn't good at all, and it's not even going to be 15-20% if firms curb hiring due to the pandemic. And based on your first post, you wouldn't be ok with the median outcome from GMU, which would pigeon-hole you into local crim law jobs or small firms that aren't the boutiques you're likely to be interested in. Most importantly, though, it's a pointless downgrade for you. Your numbers get you much better options with good scholarship offers, and there's no need for you to be even thinking about schools like GMU and W&L for your goals.

cavalier1138 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:42 pm

That was a bad application strategy, and you should fix it (not "should have," because you aren't even late in the cycle yet). There's no reason you should be leaving any of the lower T13 off the table, and CCN--at least Columbia and NYU--are not out of play, depending on exactly where in the 170s your LSAT falls.

I'm below 25th GPA at the entire T6 and only above median LSAT for NYU, seems like a long shot and sticker price even if. After re-looking at other applicant outcomes and having read through a lot of the negotiation threads on here since applying, color me convinced on the lower T-14. I will very seriously consider applying to at least 2 or 3 additional this weekend, maybe all. Thanks

cavalier1138 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:42 pm

gamecocklaw wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:08 pm

Care to expand at all on the blanket nix to GMU? I know fed clerking and BL would be a long shot from there, but ~15-20% isn't abysmal, and I would be ok with the median outcome if I have no debt afterward.

15-20% isn't good at all, and it's not even going to be 15-20% if firms curb hiring due to the pandemic. And based on your first post, you wouldn't be ok with the median outcome from GMU, which would pigeon-hole you into local crim law jobs or small firms that aren't the boutiques you're likely to be interested in. Most importantly, though, it's a pointless downgrade for you. Your numbers get you much better options with good scholarship offers, and there's no need for you to be even thinking about schools like GMU and W&L for your goals.

I guess what didn't come across right is that, while I want to pursue BL (and especially a clerkship) as hard as is reasonable, I'm not married to the idea of getting it. Being locked into a local gig from Mason at $60-$80k with no debt would honestly be fine. I have tons of ties to the area, I might end up choosing public crim law anyway, and owing nothing makes that a solid living. Ideal outcome? No. But I think a much bigger pill to swallow would be the same outcome except in St. Louis (from WUSTL), or graduating a T14 at sticker just praying to last 4-5 years in BL (which I might end up hating anyway) or else wait until my late 30s to break even.

I do very much hope you're right about having better options. I think if I can get above a 1/3 scholarship to a T14 it might well be worth it.

I think scholarship offers are much less predictable than admission decisions themselves. And you can leverage a scholarship offer from one school to get a better deal from another school. So it really makes sense to just apply to a lot of places. Then when you see where you got in and at what price, you can make your final decision about what makes the most sense for your goals.

HamlinMcgill wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:28 am

I think scholarship offers are much less predictable than admission decisions themselves. And you can leverage a scholarship offer from one school to get a better deal from another school. So it really makes sense to just apply to a lot of places. Then when you see where you got in and at what price, you can make your final decision about what makes the most sense for your goals.

Yeah I probably jumped the gun on this post, but WUSTL and GMU both give out full tuition (or more) to over a quarter of their students, so I think it's realistic that I can get at least near that. I applied widely (15 so far) for scholarship chances off the bat, but had no idea negotiation was so common until recently reading through a bunch of old fin aid threads on here. I'll update when I have offers in hand.

I'd add a few more T14s to that list (Duke for starters), and maybe even add Vandy; I'd look at Emory as well. Are you from DC? If so, it'll be easier to get back there from WashU. Obviously, if both WashU and GMU are the same price, I think you should take WashU. Agreed with above posters though if it is between WashU for nothing or UVA for 100k, I'd pull the trigger on UVA. I'm hopeful that you'd get a pretty great package from GWU as well. Apply broadly, you'll want to have those options for negotiations. Email those other schools and ask for waivers, usually they are accommodating.

crazywafflez wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:30 am

I'd add a few more T14s to that list (Duke for starters), and maybe even add Vandy; I'd look at Emory as well. Are you from DC? If so, it'll be easier to get back there from WashU. Obviously, if both WashU and GMU are the same price, I think you should take WashU. Agreed with above posters though if it is between WashU for nothing or UVA for 100k, I'd pull the trigger on UVA. I'm hopeful that you'd get a pretty great package from GWU as well. Apply broadly, you'll want to have those options for negotiations. Email those other schools and ask for waivers, usually they are accommodating.

Yeah I'm pretty sure I'm going to add Duke/Northwestern/Michigan. Already applied to both Emory and Vandy (as well as BU, UNC, Texas & Richmond). I'm from the Virginia side of the DC suburbs, so kinda sorta. I'm not dead set on returning, but if I have the option I would very likely take it. If I can get UVA down that far I think it'd be almost a no-brainer, but if I had to bet it'll be closer to a $175k-$250k debt load by graduation.

While a lot of people don’t worry enough about sticker debt, it’s also easy to get sticker shock and be too scared off by a good amount of debt IMO. Getting biglaw out of school is worth an enormous amount of money over the course of a career. And as bad as a big debt load can be, as long as you are getting only federal loans, this is not like a mortgage where you lose your house if you can’t pay. Instead, you can defer or reduce payments based on income.

This really isn’t meant to downplay concerns about debt, but to me the risk of spending three years in law school and ending up in a job that doesn’t pay more than an average college grad could have gotten after three years experience (in which they could have been making money instead of paying down savings) is important too.

Even $200k debt from UVA is to me easily worth it over GMU, but I understand people have different debt tolerances.

Elston Gunn wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:49 am

While a lot of people don’t worry enough about sticker debt, it’s also easy to get sticker shock and be too scared off by a good amount of debt IMO. Getting biglaw out of school is worth an enormous amount of money over the course of a career.
...
Even $200k debt from UVA is to me easily worth it over GMU, but I understand people have different debt tolerances.

Not sure where you're at on the experience spectrum, but if you (or others) have any idea, how dependent is that ROI on staying in big law? People on here make it seem as if getting BL from a T-14 is relatively straightforward, but keeping it is another story. Are the low-mid 6-figure exit options for a short-term BL associate plentiful? If it costs 250k once all the interest is included to get BL and I leave after 1-2 years with only half (or less) of that debt paid down, how significant is the expected pay bump over the next 10-15 years for having gotten it?

gamecocklaw wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:14 pm

Elston Gunn wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:49 am

While a lot of people don’t worry enough about sticker debt, it’s also easy to get sticker shock and be too scared off by a good amount of debt IMO. Getting biglaw out of school is worth an enormous amount of money over the course of a career.
...
Even $200k debt from UVA is to me easily worth it over GMU, but I understand people have different debt tolerances.

Not sure where you're at on the experience spectrum, but if you (or others) have any idea, how dependent is that ROI on staying in big law? People on here make it seem as if getting BL from a T-14 is relatively straightforward, but keeping it is another story. Are the low-mid 6-figure exit options for a 1-2 BL associate plentiful? If it costs 250k once all the interest is included to get BL and I leave after 1-2 years with only half (or less) of that debt paid down, how significant is the expected pay bump over the next 10-15 years for having gotten it?

I’m more than 5 years out of school. First thing I’d say is that, while crazy things can definitely happen, it’s not that hard to stay in biglaw for a while *unless you personally burn out*. People who leave BL before the really good exits open up do so mostly by choice (though again there are exceptions). Of course, the reason people do that is that it is a shitty work environment, though how shitty varies a lot (and I thought it was mostly fine).

I’m not a litigator, so I can’t speak as knowledgeably about how soon good options for litigators open up, but even early in your career I believe the options for someone from UVA+BL are going to be much much better than GMU + small firm.

Elston Gunn wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:19 pm

I’m more than 5 years out of school. First thing I’d say is that, while crazy things can definitely happen, it’s not that hard to stay in biglaw for a while *unless you personally burn out*. People who leave BL before the really good exits open up do so mostly by choice (though again there are exceptions). Of course, the reason people do that is that it is a shitty work environment, though how shitty varies a lot (and I thought it was mostly fine).

Thank you, that's definitely helpful context. Seems like I will have to balance gambling on my law school performance at the risk of my long-term career prospects and on my drudgery tolerance at the risk of my mid-term financial wellbeing. Hopefully I'll end up with a nice goldilocks option.