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Hello. I am choosing between a 65k scholarship at NYU and a 135k scholarship at Georgetown. That's a difference of about 100k (assuming classes are in person for both semesters next fall). Interests are biglaw and government work. What should I choose? Thank you.

Have you gone back to NYU with the Gtown scholarship to see if they would up their offer?

trebekismyhero wrote:Have you gone back to NYU with the Gtown scholarship to see if they would up their offer?

Yes, these are final offers.

kidkasparov123 wrote:

trebekismyhero wrote:Have you gone back to NYU with the Gtown scholarship to see if they would up their offer?

Yes, these are final offers.

If COA were within $50k, I'd go with NYU. This is a tough call, might lean to NYU still if big law were most important, otherwise Gtown.

This is a tough call in general. I think I'd pick G'town, purely cause I'm fairly debt averse- but I think a NYU choice is certainly defensible, and it is def the better school for big law. I also think G'town may edge out NYU for govt work but this could just be from self selection rather than anything else. Best of luck.

crazywafflez wrote:I also think G'town may edge out NYU for govt work but this could just be from self selection rather than anything else. Best of luck.

While I agree it'd be defensible to choose either way, I strongly disagree with the notion that Georgetown "may edge out NYU for govt work". That is emphatically not the case. NYU's extremely strong in public interest, including government. It's arguably the second-strongest in the country after Yale, or third-strongest after Yale and Harvard. It's certainly far stronger than Georgetown. Georgetown isn't weak by any means, but it's a far cry from NYU's level.

At equal cost, no one should ever choose Georgetown over NYU based on a belief that Georgetown places better than NYU. NYU is (much) stronger across the board. (Of course, I realize we're not talking about equal COA here, which is what makes it defensible to choose either way in this case.)

I think $70K is well worth making sure you'll get a BigLaw job even if you're bottom third of the class. Think of it as insurance you've got 30 years to repay.

GULC has always been a step below rest of T14 and this gets exacerbated during recessions.

Personally, I'd eat the extra cost, enjoy three years in Manhattan at NYU, and know that I have a very good shot at gov't work after I finish my biglaw stint. GULC has a better go'vt community and better placement due to self-selection, imo, but the NYU name will give you a better chance at ending up in federal gov't long-term without the worries of striking out of biglaw initially.

I attended Georgetown on a scholarship over higher ranked schools, and am very glad I did. I was pretty debt averse, but one thing I realize even more now as an NYC biglaw associate is that loans aren’t Monopoly money - $100k more is at least a full year of your life working HARD, for essentially no benefit to you. Georgetown is more of a risk on the employment front, I admit, but even if biglaw doesn’t pan out many of my friends turned academic year federal government or other internships into full time employment (though with the added stress that offers for these jobs don’t come out until after the bar).

I was in a similar situation: $60K NYU v. $120K GULC. I chose NYU, but I'm also a New Yorker and all my family and friends are here.

I like GULC and I'm surprised that NYU is considered on a different level than GULC for some reason. Also, I don't like that the posters here have tried to forcememe "T13"--it's mean-spirited and weird. If you want to be coy, NYU is the GULC of the T6--the worst among the best law schools.

That said, I'm surprised by the inconsistent career outcomes of top students at GULC. I see magna-level GULC students striking out at OCI, I see members of law review at V100 firms. At the same time, I see cum laude-level no-law review students clerking for federal judges in selective districts. Maybe because GULC has so many students from so many walks of life that the outcomes which one observes are less consistent.

Class of 2018 employment outcomes:
GULC: 310 biglaw (501+attys) + 29 fedclerk = 339. 339/650 (total graduates) = 52.15%
NYU: 287 biglaw (501+ attys) + 19 fedclerk = 306. 306/458 (total graduates) = 66.81%

Wild Card wrote:I like GULC and I'm surprised that NYU is considered on a different level than GULC for some reason. Also, I don't like that the posters here have tried to forcememe "T13"--it's mean-spirited and weird. If you want to be coy, NYU is the GULC of the T6--the worst among the best law schools.

I realize you have an ax to grind against your alma mater, but there's no need to be dishonest. It's the "T13" because there's a large, 15-point drop in placement power between Cornell and Georgetown, and effectively no drop between Georgetown and UT (a 3-point difference). In fact, Vandy's placement power exceeds Georgetown's, so why would it be the "T14"? If we insisted on using the "T14", it ought to be the T13 plus Vandy, and not the T13 plus Georgetown.

This isn't any slight against Georgetown, but a simple recognition of the fact that in terms of placement power, it fits right in with the other T20 schools (and is the second-strongest T20 after Vandy), and not the T13.

Combined BigLaw + Federal Clerkship Placement (ABA 2018 Data)
Ordered by USNWR Rank

• Chicago: 79.1%
• Columbia: 81.6%
• NYU: 75.1%
• Penn: 80.2%
• UVA: 83.3%
• Northwestern: 75.6%
• Duke: 76.8%
• Cornell: 75.0%

• Georgetown: 60.6%
• UCLA: 48.4%
• UT: 57.0%
• WUSTL: 52.2%
• USC: 42.4%
• Vanderbilt: 63.1%
  

Look at the list above. Look at the 75.0+% placement of the T13. Look at the 42.4-63.1% placement of the T20 (excluding Georgetown). Now look at Georgetown's 60.6% placement. Does it fit with the T13 or with the T20? Georgetown's 60.6% sits snugly between UT's 57.0% and Vandy's 63.1%. But it's a yawning 15-point chasm from Georgetown's 60.6% to #13 Cornell's 75.0%.

That's why it's the T13.

gotCentred wrote:I attended Georgetown on a scholarship over higher ranked schools, and am very glad I did. I was pretty debt averse, but one thing I realize even more now as an NYC biglaw associate is that loans aren’t Monopoly money - $100k more is at least a full year of your life working HARD, for essentially no benefit to you. Georgetown is more of a risk on the employment front, I admit, but even if biglaw doesn’t pan out many of my friends turned academic year federal government or other internships into full time employment (though with the added stress that offers for these jobs don’t come out until after the bar).

Yeah, this is a very real concern.

If OP clerks and then goes into gov't or goes straight into government, both of which I imagine will be easier at NYU, albeit it lacking a great community for either, PSLF+LRAP takes care of this problem. If OP wants to spend several years in biglaw first, it would be a bummer to do an extra year of strenuous work for essentially 0 financial benefit just to have the NYU degree. If OP does a year or two and then transitions into public service, OP can just pay a very small amount back while working in biglaw and then hop on PSLF while in public service. That will negate most of the increased debt burden. Although OP presumably won't have access to NYU's LRAP, all the money made in biglaw will probably make it a wash.

As for excluding Georgetown when we use the T13, I don't think it's meant to be mean spirited - at least that's not how I use it. Georgetown been lagging the rest of the T14 in placement by ~15% or more for several years now. At equal money, I could tell someone there is a good argument for Cornell vs Northwestern vs Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke vs Virginia. At equal money, I couldn't make that argument for GULC. It's placement power just isn't what it used to be. Using T13 is an attempt to make that clear to prospective students. I still think GULC is still a fantastic institution and makes sense given sufficient $$$ and specific goals.

QContinuum wrote: I realize you have an ax to grind against your alma mater, but there's no need to be dishonest. It's the "T13" because . . . . In fact, Vandy's placement power exceeds Georgetown's, so why would it be the "T14"? If we insisted on using the "T14", it ought to be the T13 plus Vandy, and not the T13 plus Georgetown.

This isn't any slight against Georgetown, but a simple recognition of the fact that in terms of placement power, it fits right in with the other T20 schools (and is the second-strongest T20 after Vandy), and not the T13.

I am not being "dishonest." I disclose that I define biglaw as 501+ attorneys. In which case,

Class of 2018 employment outcomes:
GULC: 310 biglaw (501+attys) + 29 fedclerk = 339. 339/650 (total graduates) = 52.15%
NYU: 287 biglaw (501+ attys) + 19 fedclerk = 306. 306/458 (total graduates) = 66.81%
Vandy: 66 biglaw (501+ attys) + 19 fedclerk = 95. 85/179 (total graduates) = 47.49%

With respect to "placement power," these figures tell us quantity, but not quality.

I continue to maintain that CLS has stronger "placement power" than NYU, in the sense that the very best law firms are willing to dig deeper into the class at CLS than at NYU. I've been willing to compare summer associate class sheets with CLS alums to prove my point.

In the same way, the very best law firms are not hiring from Vanderbilt over Georgetown; the most selective federal judges are not hiring from Vanderbilt over Georgetown.

Wild Card wrote:I am not being "dishonest." I disclose that I define biglaw as 501+ attorneys. In which case,

Class of 2018 employment outcomes:
GULC: 310 biglaw (501+attys) + 29 fedclerk = 339. 339/650 (total graduates) = 52.15%
NYU: 287 biglaw (501+ attys) + 19 fedclerk = 306. 306/458 (total graduates) = 66.81%
Vandy: 66 biglaw (501+ attys) + 19 fedclerk = 95. 85/179 (total graduates) = 47.49%

With respect to "placement power," these figures tell us quantity, but not quality.

I continue to maintain that CLS has stronger placement power than NYU, in the sense that the very best law firms are willing to dig deeper into the class at CLS than at NYU. I've been willing to compare summer associate class sheets with CLS alums to prove my point.

In the same way, the very best law firms are not hiring from Vanderbilt over Georgetown; the most selective federal districts are not hiring from Vanderbilt over Georgetown.

No one is saying that NYU is stronger than CLS for BigLaw. Each of CCN has their own unique strength. CLS is stronger for BigLaw. NYU is stronger for PI. And Chicago's stronger for clerking (and arguably stronger than CLS for BigLaw, as well).

Even in your data above, there's a large, 15-point (14.66%) gap between NYU and Georgetown, and a very small (4.66%) difference between Georgetown and Vandy, so even there, it continues to show Georgetown fits in more with Vandy than with NYU. The median student at Georgetown/Vandy is "on the edge", whilst the median student at NYU is pretty damn safe. And I maintain that my calculations in my earlier post, which were based on firms with 100+ attorneys, plus federal clerks, is more accurate than looking only at 500+ attorney firms (plus fedclerks).

And, we're not talking about Georgetown vs. Vandy here, but I agree that at equal COA, it's defensible to choose Georgetown over Vandy, both because of Georgetown's historical reputation (Vandy's climbed the ranks in terms of placement power relatively recently), as well as Georgetown's D.C. location, which does confer some nonzero advantage in terms of Fed Gov networking. Thing is, typically it's not equal COA, because Georgetown is legendarily stingy (relatively speaking) while Vandy's typically significantly more generous in offering merit aid.

Thanks for the feedback; I have a question.

I know many Georgetown students go into high-level government/PI jobs, and I'm wondering if the low biglaw numbers are a result of self-selection. Of the people going to law firms from Georgetown, over 75% are going to biglaw (I think this is a more valuable way to measure biglaw placement). This number's in alignment with the 13 schools ranked above it, and contrasts sharply with the schools ranked below it. Wouldn't this suggest Georgetown is comparable with the other top schools in terms of biglaw placement?

Also, to sum up the argument of those in the NYU camp: NYU is more prestigious and the long-term benefits of the degree outweigh the costs. Is this accurate? Thanks.

kidkasparov123 wrote:I know many Georgetown students go into high-level government/PI jobs, and I'm wondering if the low biglaw numbers are a result of self-selection. Of the people going to law firms from Georgetown, over 75% are going to biglaw (I think this is a more valuable way to measure biglaw placement). This number's in alignment with the 13 schools ranked above it, and contrasts sharply with the schools ranked below it. Wouldn't this suggest Georgetown is comparable with the other top schools in terms of biglaw placement?

Not really. There's plenty of selection into high-level government/PI jobs from the other schools, particularly NYU, which is known for its PI prowess (which is likely why its BigLaw placement is lower than that of its peer schools). It's not at all true that T13 students are targeting BigLaw to the exclusion of DoJ Honors/ACLU/EFF/etc. Those outcomes, to the extent attainable, are frequently preferred over BigLaw by many.

kidkasparov123 wrote:Also, to sum up the argument of those in the NYU camp: NYU is more prestigious and the long-term benefits of the degree outweigh the costs. Is this accurate? Thanks.

Not entirely. It's true that an NYU J.D. will have more long-term benefits than a Georgetown J.D. because law is pretty prestige-obsessed, but that's not the most important thing we're looking at. The most important thing is the risk of failing to secure Fed Gov, elite PI OR BigLaw out of law school. That's a pretty minor risk out of NYU, but a much larger risk out of Georgetown. Specifically, about 15 points more risky at Georgetown. Fed Gov/elite PI is typically harder to land than BigLaw, so looking at BigLaw placement is illustrative and, if anything, overly optimistic for someone focused on Fed Gov/elite PI outcomes.

QContinuum wrote:

kidkasparov123 wrote:I know many Georgetown students go into high-level government/PI jobs, and I'm wondering if the low biglaw numbers are a result of self-selection. Of the people going to law firms from Georgetown, over 75% are going to biglaw (I think this is a more valuable way to measure biglaw placement). This number's in alignment with the 13 schools ranked above it, and contrasts sharply with the schools ranked below it. Wouldn't this suggest Georgetown is comparable with the other top schools in terms of biglaw placement?

Thank you for your response. I think we're talking past each other. Of those who choose to go to law firms at GT, about 77% get biglaw. That's about the same as the other 13 top schools. This is a better metric because it focuses on the outcomes of students going to law firms (most of these ppl want biglaw). It also removes those who select into PI/government.

kidkasparov123 wrote:

QContinuum wrote:

kidkasparov123 wrote:I know many Georgetown students go into high-level government/PI jobs, and I'm wondering if the low biglaw numbers are a result of self-selection. Of the people going to law firms from Georgetown, over 75% are going to biglaw (I think this is a more valuable way to measure biglaw placement). This number's in alignment with the 13 schools ranked above it, and contrasts sharply with the schools ranked below it. Wouldn't this suggest Georgetown is comparable with the other top schools in terms of biglaw placement?

Thank you for your response. I think we're talking past each other. Of those who choose to go to law firms at GT, about 77% get biglaw. That's about the same as the other 13 top schools. This is a better metric because it focuses on the outcomes of students going to law firms (most of these ppl want biglaw). It also removes those who select into PI/government.

What Q is saying is that you're making an awfully big assumption in viewing the statistics that way. And if you apply that reasoning to other top schools, Georgetown still underperforms by a significant margin. You can't just pretend that only Georgetown has students self-selecting into PI/government when you look at job numbers.

Look, Georgetown is defensible with the scholarship gap. But you will absolutely have better options at NYU, especially when you factor in the fact that the most common track to competitive fedgov positions is through biglaw.

Wild Card wrote:[Insert anti-NYU ranting here.]

Do you ever get tired of this routine? I'm sorry that you didn't get Cravath. You wouldn't have gotten Cravath if you had gone to Columbia. You need to get over it.

cavalier1138 wrote:

kidkasparov123 wrote:

QContinuum wrote:

kidkasparov123 wrote:I know many Georgetown students go into high-level government/PI jobs, and I'm wondering if the low biglaw numbers are a result of self-selection. Of the people going to law firms from Georgetown, over 75% are going to biglaw (I think this is a more valuable way to measure biglaw placement). This number's in alignment with the 13 schools ranked above it, and contrasts sharply with the schools ranked below it. Wouldn't this suggest Georgetown is comparable with the other top schools in terms of biglaw placement?

Thank you for your response. I think we're talking past each other. Of those who choose to go to law firms at GT, about 77% get biglaw. That's about the same as the other 13 top schools. This is a better metric because it focuses on the outcomes of students going to law firms (most of these ppl want biglaw). It also removes those who select into PI/government.

Hello, thanks for your response. I think other law schools have students self-selecting into that line of work, so I use this metric at the other schools, too. If GT's placement is worse, their percentages should be much lower across the board. But they're not. Of students at Cornell going to law firms, 79% go to biglaw, 78% at Duke, 77% at Berkeley, etc.

I will say that at NYU, 84% get biglaw (of those going to law firms). That's higher than at GT, but I'm not sure it's worth the price difference.

kidkasparov123 wrote:Hello, thanks for your response. I think other law schools have students self-selecting into that line of work, so I use this metric at the other schools, too. If GT's placement is worse, their percentages should be much lower across the board. But they're not. Of students at Cornell going to law firms, 79% go to biglaw, 78% at Duke, 77% at Berkeley, etc.

I will say that at NYU, 84% get biglaw (of those going to law firms). That's higher than at GT, but I'm not sure it's worth the price difference.

I was more saying that it's a big stretch to assume that everyone who goes into PI/government is self-selecting. And I completely disagree with your arbitrary metric for determining how many people "wanted" to go to a firm. Again, if you assume that all students self-select into PI/government (this is not true, but we're assuming it's true for your benefit), Georgetown still has lower numbers. The only way Georgetown starts to look like it offers similar outcomes is when you torture the numbers until they look like what you want them to.

Again, it's totally defensible to go to Georgetown at this price difference. But you really need to disabuse yourself of the notion that you won't be giving something up by making that choice (especially when the job market is going to look more like 2011 than 2018).

I can’t say that *everyone* who does PI/gov is self-selecting, but those jobs aren’t especially easy to get if you’ve been gunning for biglaw. So it’s not that PI/gov is really a safe backup (I would say the common backup for people who strike out of biglaw is mid- to small law) such that a significant number of people who go that route actually wanted biglaw. I tend to agree that self-selection is reasonably influential here. (That said, there’s no way I can quantify that, and I agree that even if self-selection is playing the role I think it is, NYU is a better option in a vacuum. Just can’t say how much more $ NYU is worth.)

kidkasparov123 wrote:Thank you for your response. I think we're talking past each other. Of those who choose to go to law firms at GT, about 77% get biglaw. That's about the same as the other 13 top schools. This is a better metric because it focuses on the outcomes of students going to law firms (most of these ppl want biglaw). It also removes those who select into PI/government.

Your logic is, "oh, 100 GT students ended up at law firms of any size, so that must mean the other GT students didn't want BigLaw. And of those 100 who ended up at law firms, 77 landed BigLaw, so that must mean GT has a 77% BigLaw placement rate!" (I'm using "100" and "77" instead of the actual numbers to avoid doing math.)

But that logic doesn't hold. What's the basis for assuming that the only GT students who tried to land BigLaw were the 100 GT students who ended up at law firms of any size? Do you think GT students who try, but fail, to land BigLaw will inevitably join a small law firm instead?

And what about the 18% of GT students who struck out of the practice of law entirely (i.e., did not find any work as a lawyer, anywhere, at any salary)? Did they also "not want" to go into BigLaw - to the extent they'd rather not work as a lawyer than take a BigLaw job?

Look, it's pretty clear you've made up your mind. You want to go to Georgetown. Which, as we've all said in this thread, is a perfectly defensible and reasonable choice! No one is saying you'd be nuts to choose Georgetown over NYU, given the price difference in your case. I myself did not attend the highest-ranked law school I got into, due to price, so I totally get wanting to minimize debt.

But stop deluding yourself into thinking that you alone amongst 0Ls have figured out that Georgetown is actually just as strong a school as NYU.

It's also impossible to completely disentangle "self-selection" from people's actual opportunities. GULC students are probably dissuaded from traditional biglaw recruiting because it's harder for them; other paths are comparatively easier and therefore more appealing. They can't fall ass-backwards into a big NYC firm upon seeing their loans cross the $200k threshold the way that CCN students do.

Eh. A lot of government/PI jobs are harder to get than biglaw, frankly. You can’t fall backwards into them because they often require some kind of demonstrated commitment to/experience with the cause. And I really really doubt Georgetown is dissuading anyone from traditional biglaw recruiting; I’m not sure what that would even look like or how it would work.

nixy wrote:Eh. A lot of government/PI jobs are harder to get than biglaw, frankly. You can’t fall backwards into them because they often require some kind of demonstrated commitment to/experience with the cause. And I really really doubt Georgetown is dissuading anyone from traditional biglaw recruiting; I’m not sure what that would even look like or how it would work.

OP's (incorrect) assumption is that Georgetown students are uniquely PI-minded, such that a significantly smaller fraction of GT students (compared to T13 students) want to work in BigLaw. In fact, GT students are so married to PI they'd rather not be lawyers than take BigLaw jobs.