Fordham for $60k or SJU for free? Forum

[LiquoreStoreHero]

First off, please be gentle because I am deeply embarrassed that I didn’t ask earlier, and I am anxious to the point of losing sleep over this decision.

I am in a bind between two schools. First is Fordham Law, the other is Saint John’s University. I receive $45k in scholarship per year at Fordham, and my total COA should be about $60,000. SJU would be free provided I maintain 2.15 or higher, with negligible costs for books and transportation.

My career goals are work-life balance at a mid-size firm or perhaps the federal government. I want to make high five-figures to low six-figures a year and work 40-50 hours a week or less. I'm willing to take lower pay for lower hours.

While I am curious about BigLaw, it’s not my life, and I’d only do it for 1-2 years so I could put it on my resume and work my way up to a low-six-figure salary at a mid-size firm quicker.

How much does name matter? How much of a difference is there in USNWR rankings? Fordham is #27 this year but was #39 last year. SJU is #74 this year but #77 last year. I realize that’s a large difference, but neither are T-14 or even T-25.

Finally, while I am okay with working in Queens, I also want to keep Manhattan and Westchester open. Does anyone know how much SJU’s alumni network reaches out of Queens and Long Island?

One other note -- I got a 170 on the LSAT after three tries, and I have a 3.62 undergrad GPA (3.85 in-major). If I just don’t feel ready to go to school this year, what do you think are my odds I could get these same scholarship offers next year, given the widespread economic downturn we face, and the concomitant potential decrease in university endowments?

[cavalier1138]

Fordham is far and away the better choice here, but I want to nip one particular misconception in the bud:

want to make high five-figures to low six-figures a year and work 40-50 hours a week or less.

Those jobs don't exist outside of a select few government positions. They certainly don't exist for fresh graduates.

[Law2019]

First off, please be gentle because I am deeply embarrassed that I didn’t ask earlier, and I am anxious to the point of losing sleep over this decision.

I am in a bind between two schools. First is Fordham Law, the other is Saint John’s University. I receive $45k in scholarship per year at Fordham, and my total COA should be about $60,000. SJU would be free provided I maintain 2.15 or higher, with negligible costs for books and transportation.

My career goals are work-life balance at a mid-size firm or perhaps the federal government. I want to make high five-figures to low six-figures a year and work 40-50 hours a week or less. I'm willing to take lower pay for lower hours.

While I am curious about BigLaw, it’s not my life, and I’d only do it for 1-2 years so I could put it on my resume and work my way up to a low-six-figure salary at a mid-size firm quicker.

How much does name matter? How much of a difference is there in USNWR rankings? Fordham is #27 this year but was #39 last year. SJU is #74 this year but #77 last year. I realize that’s a large difference, but neither are T-14 or even T-25.

Finally, while I am okay with working in Queens, I also want to keep Manhattan and Westchester open. Does anyone know how much SJU’s alumni network reaches out of Queens and Long Island?

One other note -- I got a 170 on the LSAT after three tries, and I have a 3.62 undergrad GPA (3.85 in-major). If I just don’t feel ready to go to school this year, what do you think are my odds I could get these same scholarship offers next year, given the widespread economic downturn we face, and the concomitant potential decrease in university endowments?

Fordham for 60k is by far the superior choice. I received a slightly smaller scholarship from Fordham and a full ride from St. John's. I did not even consider St. John's.

Ignore the USNWR rankings. Look at the job numbers. Fordham's big law numbers are much better than St. John's numbers. St. John's peers are Cardozo and Brooklyn. Fordham is a tier above (but below NYU and Columbia).

[notatourist69]

I’m in almost the same pickle and likely taking the full ride at SJU because I’m older, incredibly debt averse, and am not worried about my job prospects after graduating. It sounds you’re still figuring out the particulars of what you want to go into but know you want a good work life balance. Fordham would be the safer bet because it would give you more opportunities in figuring out the particulars but I don’t think you can go wrong at SJU given your goals and willingness to take lower pay.

In terms of reaching Manhattan, I know several people who have landed jobs with the city from SJU. Just anecdotal.

[crazywafflez]

I'm not a northerner, and don't know a lot about the market specifics of NYC, but i'd take Fordham. Its numbers for even just an attorney job are much better compared to SJU. I had a friend attend SJU for a year and then she transferred to Emory and she's got a decent job back in NYC now. 60k COA is pretty darn good for a decent regional school, not that SJU is bad by any means, it jsut doesn't have the placement power. I think you'd get similar scholarships to these if you sit out a year but it is a crapshoot- you could do worse or you could do better. A lot more folks could be aiming to go to law school next year if the economy goes south (buying their time for a few years for employment to pick back up). Best of luck.

[LiquoreStoreHero]

Law2019 and cavalier1138,

First off, thank you both for your timely responses! I understand you both say Fordham is far and away superior -- BUT WHY??? I can't wrap my head around it. They do put more people in BigLaw, sure, but typically only top third goes to BigLaw. Granted, they have sent 40.7% into BigLaw in 2017, 50.7% to Biglaw in 2018 and 58.2% in 2019 -- but as I understand it, typically, the majority don't go into BigLaw. If I don't end up in BigLaw, won't I be making the same starting salary no matter where I go? And if so, then why am I paying extra? Won't I need to spend the same amount of time working my way up the payscale? I am not trying to be difficult but I legitimately don't understand why Fordham is better even given my acceptance of lower pay.

I guess what I'm asking is, other than BigLaw, why is Fordham better? What difference does a tier make outside of BigLaw? What doors does Fordham open up that SJU doesn't? What exactly am I paying for? I should note that I'd have to pay most of the COA in loans, with perhaps $10,000 in assistance from my family. I am really afraid on taking on that kind of debt without an articulable reason as to why I'm doing so. Thank you both so much again.

notatourist69,

Yes you're completely right I actually have very little solid plan as to what I'm doing. I'm also debt averse. Would you mind telling me about your anecdotes of people who reached Manhattan, so that I might understand what kind of jobs they've gotten? I understand that it would by no means be representative so I'll take it with the appropriate grain of salt. Also, you say that Fordham is a safer bet to let me explore what I want to do, yet, I thought SJU might be a safer bet to explore what I want to do because I'd graduate debt-free; that's a large part of why it appealed to me. Could you explain your thoughts to me?

crazywafflez,

I appreciate your input! Could you elaborate on placement power? I looked at the overall employment rate for SJU and Fordham on Law School Transparency, and it looks like they both place people into jobs at a similar rate. From 2011-2018, SJU placed an average of 63.5% of its graduates into bar-passage required jobs, while Fordham placed 68.0% of graduates into such jobs. (https://www.lstreports.com/compare/stjohns/fordham/) Clearly, Fordham has a little bit of an advantage, but is it decisive? Or do you mean something else by "placement power?"

Thank all of you again and have a wonderful evening!

[Golradaer]

You asked what the difference between Fordham and SJU is if you aren't aiming for big law.

Imagine you're applying for a job as a lawyer in NYC — any job. Faced with two resumes that are otherwise similar, the Fordham grad will get an interview over the SJU grad. Faced with two candidates who both interviewed well, and both are good fits with solid grades, the firm will hire the Fordham grad.

The reason Fordham is the obvious choice is $60k debt is very reasonable in the world of law school admissions for what you're getting, and at that price you should be doing everything you can to maximize job opportunities. As arbitrary as it might seem, this is a prestige-obsessed occupation and that isn't going to change.

[cavalier1138]

You asked what the difference between Fordham and SJU is if you aren't aiming for big law.

Imagine you're applying for a job as a lawyer in NYC — any job. Faced with two resumes that are otherwise similar, the Fordham grad will get an interview over the SJU grad. Faced with two candidates who both interviewed well, and both are good fits with solid grades, the firm will hire the Fordham grad.

The reason Fordham is the obvious choice is $60k debt is very reasonable in the world of law school admissions for what you're getting, and at that price you should be doing everything you can to maximize job opportunities. As arbitrary as it might seem, this is a prestige-obsessed occupation and that isn't going to change.

In addition to all this, I really want to reemphasize: The job you're looking for does not exist.

If you want to be a practicing lawyer, Fordham gives you a much better shot at that than SJU.

[objctnyrhnr]

Your numbers are way too good for these to be your only/best options.

And, frankly, in a mediocre economy, neither are great.

Is there something you’re not disclosing here?

[LiquoreStoreHero]

Your numbers are way too good for these to be your only/best options.

And, frankly, in a mediocre economy, neither are great.

Is there something you’re not disclosing here?

I'm waitlisted at NYU but I'm operating on the assumption they won't accept me. I got waitlisted at Cornell but missed the part of the email that said I had to respond to stay on the waitlist, so I they withdrew my application. Columbia flatly rejected me.

Beyond that, I was planning on living at home with my family and commuting to an NYC school because I want to practice and live here because this is where my family and friends are. I didn't think to apply out of state. I wanted to focus on schools where I'm above the averages for LSAT score so I could attend school on generous scholarship, so as to avoid taking out loans. I hope I'm not being dense, but what else would you want me to disclose? What would be better options in your opinion?

[LiquoreStoreHero]

In addition to all this, I really want to reemphasize: The job you're looking for does not exist.

If you want to be a practicing lawyer, Fordham gives you a much better shot at that than SJU.

I appreciate your point that this job doesn't exist. I set those numbers as ideals, and I understand and appreciate that in all likelihood, the pay will be less and the hours will be more. I also understand that you have to work your way up from a more intense and lower paying job when you start practicing; I want those numbers as an end goal. Finally, I'll have to plead ignorance if I come off as not knowing what I'm talking about.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Your numbers are way too good for these to be your only/best options.

And, frankly, in a mediocre economy, neither are great.

Is there something you’re not disclosing here?

OP might have only applied to schools in the NYC metro, and their numbers are waitlist material at NYU/Columbia.

[objctnyrhnr]

Your numbers are way too good for these to be your only/best options.

And, frankly, in a mediocre economy, neither are great.

Is there something you’re not disclosing here?

I'm waitlisted at NYU but I'm operating on the assumption they won't accept me. I got waitlisted at Cornell but missed the part of the email that said I had to respond to stay on the waitlist, so I they withdrew my application. Columbia flatly rejected me.

Beyond that, I was planning on living at home with my family and commuting to an NYC school because I want to practice and live here because this is where my family and friends are. I didn't think to apply out of state. I wanted to focus on schools where I'm above the averages for LSAT score so I could attend school on generous scholarship, so as to avoid taking out loans. I hope I'm not being dense, but what else would you want me to disclose? What would be better options in your opinion?

This feels like one of those times to ignore common wisdom and go to school outside of nyc and then bid hard for nyc biglaw. You should blanket bottom half of t14. You’ll end up with some money and, unlikely most metro areas where regionality of school is key, nyc can be accessed pretty easily from a number of schools.

My advice: go to penn or uva or something if you don’t get off NYU waitlist.

Your numbers are too good to end up with Fordham imo and with this economic uncertainty, it’s not a great move.

[LiquoreStoreHero]

Your numbers are way too good for these to be your only/best options.

And, frankly, in a mediocre economy, neither are great.

Is there something you’re not disclosing here?

I'm waitlisted at NYU but I'm operating on the assumption they won't accept me. I got waitlisted at Cornell but missed the part of the email that said I had to respond to stay on the waitlist, so I they withdrew my application. Columbia flatly rejected me.

Beyond that, I was planning on living at home with my family and commuting to an NYC school because I want to practice and live here because this is where my family and friends are. I didn't think to apply out of state. I wanted to focus on schools where I'm above the averages for LSAT score so I could attend school on generous scholarship, so as to avoid taking out loans. I hope I'm not being dense, but what else would you want me to disclose? What would be better options in your opinion?

This feels like one of those times to ignore common wisdom and go to school outside of nyc and then bid hard for nyc biglaw. You should blanket bottom half of t14. You’ll end up with some money and, unlikely most metro areas where regionality of school is key, nyc can be accessed pretty easily from a number of schools.

My advice: go to penn or uva or something if you don’t get off NYU waitlist.

Your numbers are too good to end up with Fordham imo and with this economic uncertainty, it’s not a great move.

I appreciate your input. For reasons relating to the economy as well as personal issues, I'm really uncertain about going to law school this year. I'm playing with the idea of reapplying to law schools, but more strategically this time, perhaps along the lines of what you just said. Do you think it would hurt me to reapply to Fordham, Cornell, etc? I'm just afraid of going through all this again and disadvantaging myself. I also really have a bad gut feeling about going to law school this year. I know SJU is way below my numbers, and I'm beginning to appreciate why that matters. Fordham seems okay but not great and I'm having a hard time justifying the money I'd put into it.

Lastly -- I want to use NYU to negotiate a full ride from Fordham. Does it matter if I put down my deposit first at Fordham? Also, this might sound dumb, but would NYC schools even care if I used out-of-state T14 school acceptance letters as leverage? Would they think, "oh, this person shows no interest in practicing out of state, he must be bluffing?" Part of the reason I'm embarassed to have asked so late is I feel like I avoided the particulars of the admissions and negotiations process because it freaked me out and now all I've done is kicked the can down the road. I can't overstate how much I appreciate the input.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Lastly -- I want to use NYU to negotiate a full ride from Fordham. Does it matter if I put down my deposit first at Fordham? Also, this might sound dumb, but would NYC schools even care if I used out-of-state T14 school acceptance letters as leverage? Would they think, "oh, this person shows no interest in practicing out of state, he must be bluffing?" Part of the reason I'm embarassed to have asked so late is I feel like I avoided the particulars of the admissions and negotiations process because it freaked me out and now all I've done is kicked the can down the road. I can't overstate how much I appreciate the input.

- Your negotiation position is weaker if you've already deposited.

- Fordham would definitely consider an out-of-state T14 offer in a scholarship negotiation. Less obvious if they'd care as about, say, UT-Austin, even though it's higher-ranked.

- The reason the T14 are special is that they are nationally-recognized, and NYC is by far the easiest national market to get to. Literally no one will bat an eye at a Queens native going to Michigan Law and then coming back to practice in a big/medium firm. You'd be at a slight disadvantage for some public-sector stuff, where being able to extern/network can be important, but I'd wager that T14 prestige outweighs that factor nine times out of ten.

- Lastly, I think you're right to trust your gut and not attend law school this year. Keep your powder dry, save some money, think harder about what specific legal career you want (and get in touch with people who have that career, and ask their advice, etc.) It would be different if you had awesome offers in hand, or if you had a concrete reason for getting into the law now, but you don't.

You only get to pull this trigger once. It'll have a huge impact on your career trajectory and probably be the second-biggest purchase of your life, assuming you buy a house at some point.

[LiquoreStoreHero]

Lastly -- I want to use NYU to negotiate a full ride from Fordham. Does it matter if I put down my deposit first at Fordham? Also, this might sound dumb, but would NYC schools even care if I used out-of-state T14 school acceptance letters as leverage? Would they think, "oh, this person shows no interest in practicing out of state, he must be bluffing?" Part of the reason I'm embarassed to have asked so late is I feel like I avoided the particulars of the admissions and negotiations process because it freaked me out and now all I've done is kicked the can down the road. I can't overstate how much I appreciate the input.

- Your negotiation position is weaker if you've already deposited.

- Fordham would definitely consider an out-of-state T14 offer in a scholarship negotiation. Less obvious if they'd care as about, say, UT-Austin, even though it's higher-ranked.

- The reason the T14 are special is that they are nationally-recognized, and NYC is by far the easiest national market to get to. Literally no one will bat an eye at a Queens native going to Michigan Law and then coming back to practice in a big/medium firm. You'd be at a slight disadvantage for some public-sector stuff, where being able to extern/network can be important, but I'd wager that T14 prestige outweighs that factor nine times out of ten.

- Lastly, I think you're right to trust your gut and not attend law school this year. Keep your powder dry, save some money, think harder about what specific legal career you want (and get in touch with people who have that career, and ask their advice, etc.) It would be different if you had awesome offers in hand, or if you had a concrete reason for getting into the law now, but you don't.

You only get to pull this trigger once. It'll have a huge impact on your career trajectory and probably be the second-biggest purchase of your life, assuming you buy a house at some point.

Listen dude. I appreciate it a lot. Where else would you recommend I go to figure out the law school admissions game? It's one of those things that has so many unwritten and unofficial rules that I just found it overwhelming to even engage with.

Also, let's pretend for a moment that I'd want to go to law school this year so I can "strike while the iron is hot" and just get this damn JD out of the way. How could I politely ask Fordham to extend my deposit deadline, without quite saying "Because I want NYU to accept me so I can wring a full ride out of you"?

Otherwise if that doesn't work I'm not going this year. Also I should mention I'm a little frightened about T-14 schools because A) I heard they're ridiculously competitive (lots of gunners) and I don't know how I'd handle that; and B) I was operating under the assumption I might not receive a lot of money from them, though you've said at least some might throw money my way.

I'm also afraid of finding gainful employment or an internship or really anything of the sort in the one year I'll be putting off law school, but my stomach turns over at the thought of going to law school this year.

Either way I appreciate your input. This has been really helpful.

[LiquoreStoreHero]

Listen dude. I appreciate it a lot. Where else would you recommend I go to figure out the law school admissions game? It's one of those things that has so many unwritten and unofficial rules that I just found it overwhelming to even engage with.

Also, let's pretend for a moment that I'd want to go to law school this year so I can "strike while the iron is hot" and just get this damn JD out of the way. How could I politely ask Fordham to extend my deposit deadline, without quite saying "Because I want NYU to accept me so I can wring a full ride out of you"?

Otherwise if that doesn't work I'm not going this year. Also I should mention I'm a little frightened about T-14 schools because A) I heard they're ridiculously competitive (lots of gunners) and I don't know how I'd handle that; and B) I was operating under the assumption I might not receive a lot of money from them, though you've said at least some might throw money my way.

I'm also afraid of finding gainful employment or an internship or really anything of the sort in the one year I'll be putting off law school, but my stomach turns over at the thought of going to law school this year.

Either way I appreciate your input. This has been really helpful.

Let me also add that I've been out of college for two years now and I already feel like I've lost some of my mental sharpness for reading, writing, and analysis. Do you think another year will substantially diminish these skills even further? I can read and write history on my own, but it's not as rigorous as classes, research projects, and a thesis, and I'm afraid of losing "momentum". What do you think of these concerns?

[nixy]

In no particular order: you’re not going to lost momentum. People go back to school all the time; you’re fine. You won’t get less able to do the work.

Also, you can just ask Fordham for an extension by saying you’re very excited by their offer but you’re waiting for your whole cycle to play itself out so you can be sure you’re making the most informed decision, and that you have applications outstanding and would they grant you an extension. Then if you do get into NYU you go back and negotiate re: money, you don’t have to connect the two processes.

That said, a waitlist is a much weaker reason for extending a deposit deadline, and there’s no guarantee about when you’d hear.

[The Lsat Airbender]

There's also the not-even-lying option of telling Fordham that your finances and living situation are a bit uncertain because of the COVID pandemic and you need to get your ducks in a row before committing. If they say no then it probably wasn't happening anyway. Making it about money helps leave the door open to scholarship negotiation too: "I'm concerned about taking on these loans given the state of the economy, can you budge so as to compete with NYU's LRAP, or with my SJU full-ride?"

Agree with nixy that you'll be fine for the work of law-school, which is actually pretty different from undergrad anyway. Your 170 suggests that you're better-suited than most.

[nixy]

There's also the not-even-lying option of telling Fordham that your finances and living situation are a bit uncertain because of the COVID pandemic and you need to get your ducks in a row before committing. If they say no then it probably wasn't happening anyway.

Yes, this is a much better way to approach it.

[LiquoreStoreHero]

There's also the not-even-lying option of telling Fordham that your finances and living situation are a bit uncertain because of the COVID pandemic and you need to get your ducks in a row before committing. If they say no then it probably wasn't happening anyway. Making it about money helps leave the door open to scholarship negotiation too: "I'm concerned about taking on these loans given the state of the economy, can you budge so as to compete with NYU's LRAP, or with my SJU full-ride?"

Agree with nixy that you'll be fine for the work of law-school, which is actually pretty different from undergrad anyway. Your 170 suggests that you're better-suited than most.

Thank you so much. I will use this approach because it's true. It also does leave scholarship negotiation up for grabs. If it doesn't work out, I'll be more strategic next year. Y'all are the best and I appreciate it a lot. I might ask more questions tomorrow but my head is spinning and I need some time to process everything going on.

Also, thank you nixy!

[notatourist69]

Law2019 and cavalier1138,

First off, thank you both for your timely responses! I understand you both say Fordham is far and away superior -- BUT WHY??? I can't wrap my head around it. They do put more people in BigLaw, sure, but typically only top third goes to BigLaw. Granted, they have sent 40.7% into BigLaw in 2017, 50.7% to Biglaw in 2018 and 58.2% in 2019 -- but as I understand it, typically, the majority don't go into BigLaw. If I don't end up in BigLaw, won't I be making the same starting salary no matter where I go? And if so, then why am I paying extra? Won't I need to spend the same amount of time working my way up the payscale? I am not trying to be difficult but I legitimately don't understand why Fordham is better even given my acceptance of lower pay.

I guess what I'm asking is, other than BigLaw, why is Fordham better? What difference does a tier make outside of BigLaw? What doors does Fordham open up that SJU doesn't? What exactly am I paying for? I should note that I'd have to pay most of the COA in loans, with perhaps $10,000 in assistance from my family. I am really afraid on taking on that kind of debt without an articulable reason as to why I'm doing so. Thank you both so much again.

notatourist69,

Yes you're completely right I actually have very little solid plan as to what I'm doing. I'm also debt averse. Would you mind telling me about your anecdotes of people who reached Manhattan, so that I might understand what kind of jobs they've gotten? I understand that it would by no means be representative so I'll take it with the appropriate grain of salt. Also, you say that Fordham is a safer bet to let me explore what I want to do, yet, I thought SJU might be a safer bet to explore what I want to do because I'd graduate debt-free; that's a large part of why it appealed to me. Could you explain your thoughts to me?

crazywafflez,

I appreciate your input! Could you elaborate on placement power? I looked at the overall employment rate for SJU and Fordham on Law School Transparency, and it looks like they both place people into jobs at a similar rate. From 2011-2018, SJU placed an average of 63.5% of its graduates into bar-passage required jobs, while Fordham placed 68.0% of graduates into such jobs. (https://www.lstreports.com/compare/stjohns/fordham/) Clearly, Fordham has a little bit of an advantage, but is it decisive? Or do you mean something else by "placement power?"

Thank all of you again and have a wonderful evening!

I know maybe 6 people who went to SJU and placed in Manhattan. 2 at the DA's office, 2 at legal aid, 2 for NYC Law Dept., and 1 in Big Law. Those are people I know closely. In total I would say I know 25 in Manhattan with 5-8 in Big Law and the rest split between the DA's office, legal aid, and NYC Law Dept. I also know quite a few people who ended up practicing in Brooklyn and the Bronx. The reason I say Fordham is safer is because their numbers are higher and you're still figuring it all out. I don't think anyone thinks of SJU poorly per se, it's a fine regional school. However, I do think there is a level of elitism that would come into play if, as someone described, you were up against someone at Fordham where they may "win." That's not to say you wouldn't be successful, just that in the beginning of your career, you may not get the head start that other schools have with certain opportunities. JW, are you URM? With a 170 you really should be able to get somewhere into the lower T-14 at least and possibly a full ride at a T-20. Also, are you sure Cornell kicked you off the list/did you ever eventually reach out to them when you notice (I know someone that did this and she was able to stay on)?

[lavarman84]

Otherwise if that doesn't work I'm not going this year. Also I should mention I'm a little frightened about T-14 schools because A) I heard they're ridiculously competitive (lots of gunners) and I don't know how I'd handle that; and B) I was operating under the assumption I might not receive a lot of money from them, though you've said at least some might throw money my way.

There are gunners at every law school. There will be gunners at Fordham and SJU. That's just how many law students are. As for money, it's best to take a shot and find out than not take a shot at all. I'm with the others that it's worth applying to the lower t13 schools too.

[LBJ's Hair]

3.6+ and 170 = don't settle for a non-T14 unless it's close to a full ride at a Texas/UCLA/etc.

Fordham's a decent school that places into BigLaw when the economy is good, but its numbers will slip materially if this recession extends into 2022. Which it might.

[LiquoreStoreHero]

JW, are you URM? With a 170 you really should be able to get somewhere into the lower T-14 at least and possibly a full ride at a T-20. Also, are you sure Cornell kicked you off the list/did you ever eventually reach out to them when you notice (I know someone that did this and she was able to stay on)?

If by URM you mean "under represented minority", no, I'm not. I'm nominally white. I reached out to Cornell by replying to the email saying I was waitlisted, the email address the waitlist email said to contact initially, and I called the admissions office the day I was withdrawn to make absolutely sure I could get back on. I don't know what else to do.