Duke v. UT v. Vandy v. UF Forum

[PettPett5]

Hello everyone, looking for some advice!

I will be financing school with loans and my wife can help offset COL a bit.

Duke (COA ~150)

Vandy (COA ~80)

Texas (COA ~60)

UF (COA ~0)

Goals/Preferences: Florida big/mid law > Texas big/mid law > South big/mid law. I would like to do big or mid law for a few years to pay off debts and buy a house and then potentially transition into public interest work. Ideal public interest work would be a local chapter of the ACLU or similar organization. I don't care if the organization is prestigious, I just don't know of many besides the ACLU or SPLC. Legal aid work is another alternative.

Personal: I will be graduating law school at age 30+ so I am trying to minimize debt as much as possible. My wife and I would like to be able to buy a house and start a family a few years after law school so, again, minimizing debt is quite important.

Ties: I was born and raised in south Florida and went to undergrad in central Florida. I also have some extended family in Atlanta. I don't have strong ties in Texas or other Southern states. Is telling potential employers that my wife and I plan to settle down in the area where their firm is located enough to be considered "ties?" I'm hoping that me being a bit older and married will signal to employers that I am not a flight risk (I also genuinely want to settle down after law school).

Thank you!

[decimalsanddollars]

I would do Texas because it's ranked highly enough to keep you in play for biglaw in most markets (including Florida with your current ties) and somewhat-elite PI down the road. Texas biglaw markets are an excellent value proposition for you---low cost of living, NYC-scale comp---and UT places very well in Texas biglaw. None of these options are bad, though.

[Bigdawg98981]

This is tough because of your preferences. I lean Duke because it is the most portable and can get you to any of your desired markets. That being said, Vandy and Texas for $70k and $90k attractive for cost savings, but neither places as well as Duke. I think you hedge economic risk best by choosing Duke, but you pay for that hedge in the form of higher COA.

If you were all in on living and working in Florida and would be happy with a smaller regional firm, law school for free ain't a bad option. They also have a kick-ass law school softball team.

To answer your last question, you clearly can show ties to Florida and Texas, but I don't really know how to evaluate the "settling down" part. My gut says it would help, but I don't have facts/experience to back it up. Regardless, continue to negotiate each of these schools on scholarships until you get a "no." It might give you your answer. Good luck!

[The Lsat Airbender]

Among the schools that cost money, I think Duke makes the most sense - getting a biglaw/midlaw offer somewhere in the South is a reasonable expectation from Duke even if the economy sours over the next 5 years. Duke is your best chance at Miami biglaw by a considerable margin. Try and negotiate them down to $100-120k if you can, which would make it a slam dunk IMO.

UF for free is a great option given your geographic preferences, and biglaw is possible if you win the grades lotto, but you need to be okay with the median outcome of making five figures well into your 30's.

Vandy and Texas are best-of-both worlds if legal hiring stays strong and worst-of-both worlds if the party ends - and if you miss biglaw you'll not only be tens of thousands of dollars in the hole but you'll have probably weakened your shot at non-biglaw Florida jobs compared to UF. The UT-Houston biglaw pipeline is under siege as long as oil prices stay under $40/bbl.

[lavarman84]

Hello everyone, looking for some advice!

I will be financing school with loans and my wife can help offset COL a bit.

Duke (COA ~150)

Vandy (COA ~80)

Texas (COA ~60)

UF (COA ~0)

Goals/Preferences: Florida big/mid law > Texas big/mid law > South big/mid law. I would like to do big or mid law for a few years to pay off debts and buy a house and then potentially transition into public interest work. Ideal public interest work would be a local chapter of the ACLU or similar organization. I don't care if the organization is prestigious, I just don't know of many besides the ACLU or SPLC. Legal aid work is another alternative.

Personal: I will be graduating law school at age 30+ so I am trying to minimize debt as much as possible. My wife and I would like to be able to buy a house and start a family a few years after law school so, again, minimizing debt is quite important.

Ties: I was born and raised in south Florida and went to undergrad in central Florida. I also have some extended family in Atlanta. I don't have strong ties in Texas or other Southern states. Is telling potential employers that my wife and I plan to settle down in the area where their firm is located enough to be considered "ties?" I'm hoping that me being a bit older and married will signal to employers that I am not a flight risk (I also genuinely want to settle down after law school).

Thank you!

This is a tough one. Florida will not be easy for your goals, but the lack of debt will make it the best option for public interest work (but it'll make it harder to land one with a "prestigious" group). Of Texas and Vandy, Texas is the better deal. With regard to Duke, it kills in the South, even in Florida. But that's a lot of debt to pay off.

I recommend thinking about what you want out of life. If you want to stay in FL and practice public interest law, UF with no debt is a good option. You'll need to go out of your way to extern during law school with public interest organizations to show a demonstrated interest and network. But if you go to UF, the reality is that you may not have the opportunity to do biglaw if your grades aren't strong.

If you are willing to spend more time in biglaw working off your debt, Duke is the safest option. It'll provide you with a lot of security, but that debt load is nothing to sneeze at. Finally, Texas isn't a bad compromise, but it seems like you don't have ties there (which isn't a big deal in the bigger cities if you go to UT). UT-Austin dominates in the state, and you'll have strong options in terms of biglaw/midlaw and then public interest. The debt load isn't bad. But if you don't like living in Texas, the UT name doesn't carry the weight that Duke does in FL and the South.

And frankly, I'd say the UT name doesn't carry the weight UF does in FL. UT isn't exactly a regional school, but the South is a bit of an odd region in how it weighs law schools. Vandy and Duke are Southern schools, so they'll get more respect in the South. Texas is Texas (neither the South nor Texas considers Texas to be "Southern"). But Vandy doesn't offer the employment prospects that UT does, so I'd take it off the list.

I know I haven't given you an answer, and that's because I don't think I can. I've lived and worked in both the South and Texas. I figure it's best for me to give you the information and let you weigh your priorities. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

[crazywafflez]

Hey, I voted vandy. First off, congrats, these are all great choices and a good position to be in!
I'm from TN and father's family is from TX- TX ain't the south! It's southwest, (I kid- they are Texas hah).
But you can get Texas with a Vandy degree, I'm sure you can get in the south with a UT degree. I think Vandy places better in FL though? And certainly does in Atlanta. Both are great choices.
I'll also say that UF is a great choice for you. You all are looking to start a family, it's free, and you want to be in FL. It's the best school there and you're from there.
I will say though that Duke is my dream school and I personally would've pulled the trigger on it hah.
This is just too close to call. I personally would've chose Duke (from my situation)- in your situation I do think Vandy is maybe a tiny bit better and you kinda get the best of all worlds? UT offers this for you too, I'm just not sure it does as well as Vandy does in FL or the south in general- this could be self selection though- and again, from my experience in Atlanta and talking to Attorneys there, there is a reverence for vandy and duke folks. This could certainly fade the further south in FL you go though.
Best of luck and congrats again!

[PettPett5]

Thank you for all the advice! I have a few follow-up questions.

I've read to get Big Law in Florida basically requires being top 10% at UF. How far in the class do you think Florida Big Law would dip for Duke with my ties?

I am more interested in litigation than doing corporate. What do you think is a reasonable expectation of hours/week for Big Law in the South, specifically Florida, Atlanta, or Charlotte? I understand it will fluctuate between slow times and hectic times, but is 50-60 hours/week too optimistic? Basically, would I ever be able to see my family?

I'm hoping to negotiate Duke down. How long do you think it would take to pay off 100-120k in debt?

[Bigdawg98981]

I imagine they would dip below median at Duke (maybe well below median) with the right ties, but I'll let someone with knowledge on the Florida market lend some credibility.

As far as paying off debt, it depends. If your spouse can cover living expenses on their on, I think you could knock it out in two years if you throw all your earnings at it. But if you need your salary to supplement living expenses or have unforeseen healthcare expenses, etc. probably longer.

[The Lsat Airbender]

OP, go to the Legal Employment forum on this website and search for the keyword "Miami" (or "Atlanta", or "Charlotte", etc.). You'll get a better sense by reading through all that stuff than by getting someone's condensed answer in this thread.

60-hour weeks are perfectly realistic with the important caveat that most of the cities/firms where this is true will pay substantially less than NYC market.

[lavarman84]

Thank you for all the advice! I have a few follow-up questions.

I've read to get Big Law in Florida basically requires being top 10% at UF. How far in the class do you think Florida Big Law would dip for Duke with my ties?

I am more interested in litigation than doing corporate. What do you think is a reasonable expectation of hours/week for Big Law in the South, specifically Florida, Atlanta, or Charlotte? I understand it will fluctuate between slow times and hectic times, but is 50-60 hours/week too optimistic? Basically, would I ever be able to see my family?

I'm hoping to negotiate Duke down. How long do you think it would take to pay off 100-120k in debt?

I think 60 hours per week is probably realistic in lit, but as you noted, it'll fluctuate. Beyond the 60 hours, at least some of that time will be done working from home (although, face time matters a bit more in the South than say at your typical NYC biglaw firm).

How far would Florida biglaw dip? It's hard to say. There aren't a ton of SA spots in Florida, so it's relatively competitive. I'd say median, but that's nothing more than speculation (and I wouldn't feel safe at median). No idea on how long to pay off debt. Take a look at the legal employment forum. There's a lot of info in there.

[pizzagoblin]

I'm a Vandy alumna who is currently clerking in federal court but will work in Florida big law after.

I had a very easy time getting a job in Florida. Vandy is really well-respected down here. However, I should warn you that I graduated in the top of my class (making it easier to get jobs) and I largely had to apply to Florida jobs by myself (i.e., the school didn't have a ton of connections to Florida employers).

If you want Texas, Vandy is a GREAT option. So many of my classmates got great jobs in Texas, and the school has strong connections to Texas firms.

I've worked with a few UF Law graduates, and it seems like it was more difficult for their classmates to get big law jobs--in any state--than it was for my classmates to get big law jobs. Almost every one of my classmates who wanted big law got it.

[hookem7]

First off, I think you've got some good options here so congrats on that.

My insight on Texas as a Texas grad - while it's a good number in terms of cost, I don't think I can recommend UT here. I don't know of anyone in my class that was trying to go to Florida and don't imagine the brand carries significant weight. Texas can be "portable" if you do well, but the out of state alumni are mostly in CA or NY. I would venture a guess that Texas will be viewed the least favorably of all 4 options by in your top choice market (FL), so for that reason I think you have to rule them out.

Of the 3 remaining options, I think all have a valid argument and it depends on what you want most. Duke is obviously going to give you the best options to achieve your stated goals. However, 150k is a LOT OF MONEY. Personally, I don't like the half-measures approach of taking Vandy here and think it has the highest downside where you could owe 80k and still not be in position to get BL. I think you either take Duke knowing you have a very good shot at getting big law in at least one of those markets allowing me to pay back 150k or UF for free. But if you are trying to save and only want a couple years in BL (cuz it sucks), are you really getting ahead with that option? If I was in your shoes, I'd go to UF for free.