UT vs. Vanderbilt vs. Cornell Forum

[cbbrown76]

Hi all,
Just looking for some advice with my cycle coming to a close soon. As the title states, these are my options at this point. I am still waiting to hear back from NYU and the University of Chicago, but I am expecting waitlists at both with my numbers. I am not gonna make a final decision until I hear back from them, but expecting a waitlist at this point seems realistic to me.

168 3.9 with one year of work experience. Texas resident, so ties mostly in Texas.

(Parents will not be helping with tuition at all, but will be paying cost of living so COA numbers I have estimated take that into account)

Texas: $0, full-Ride via Hazelwood act (I have to submit the necessary forms but I have confirmed I am eligible)
I have talked with the financial aid office several times and I don't think I will be able to negotiate a stipend in lieu of accepting merit aid (which I won't need because of Hazelwood).

Vanderbilt: $77,000
I guess Vanderbilt is known for being pretty stubborn on negotiating scholarships so this is probably the max I will get.

Cornell: $120,000
Received offer pretty recently so I haven't tried to negotiate yet, but what they offered seems pretty par for the course for other applicants with my numbers.

Ideally, I would like to work Biglaw for a few years at least after graduation (preferably in Texas), but I would rather live somewhere else and do Biglaw then go into a small firm in Texas. I would love to do securities law which is why I chose to apply to schools in NY, but it isn't the sole area of law that I would be interested practicing in.

I am fairly debt-averse, but not having to pay cost of living does make the debt a little more reasonable (assuming I get a Biglaw job which I know is by no means guaranteed).

Thanks!

[QContinuum]

Ideally, I would like to work Biglaw for a few years at least after graduation (preferably in Texas), but I would rather live somewhere else and do Biglaw then go into a small firm in Texas. I would love to do securities law which is why I chose to apply to schools in NY, but it isn't the sole area of law that I would be interested practicing in.

If your raison d'etre for attending law school is a BigLaw gig - and securities law is really only possible with BigLaw (or an even more competitive DoJ Honors slot) - then you should attend a T13, i.e., Cornell. Cornell's BigLaw placement rate is 75%, compared to UT at 57% and Vandy at 63%. Further, Cornell's rate has been stable in the 75+% range for years, whereas UT has only recently climbed past the 50% mark (Vandy has historically been a few percentage points higher than UT, and used to be in the low 50s), so there is some question how stable the new 57% placement rate will be, particularly if the economy takes a hit. At UT you would need to be above median 1L year to be "BigLaw secure", whereas you could land BigLaw from comfortably below median at Cornell.

Now, Cornell's placement is mostly limited to NYC, so if you were Texas or bust, I'd definitely recommend UT. But you'd prefer BigLaw elsewhere than non-BigLaw in Texas, so Cornell's the clear choice for you, IMO. And it's fairly easy to get back to Texas a few years down the line once you've done BigLaw in NYC - all the more so because you have genuine Texas ties.

(No need to seriously consider Vandy, really; it's more expensive for you than UT, its brand doesn't go as far in Texas as UT's brand, and its overall BigLaw placement is only a tiny sliver higher than UT's - not worth anywhere close to the $77k differential in COA in your case.)

[Libya]

If you want to be a securities lawyer, whether that is a litigator or a corporate lawyer I’d go go Cornell. Also I’d just go to Cornell since you said you want to work in biglaw. Not too much debt to swallow considering you will very likely get a market paying gig, especially since you are not comfortable with a small firm in texas. Do not go to Vandy if you decide against Cornell, however. Not worth it for whatever benefit it has over UT

[Wubbles]

I would add that Cornell with Texas ties also has a decent chance of landing you back in Texas for biglaw for 2L summer (and possibly 1L if you have good grades since Texas hires for 1Ls). I actually think you should get more money from Cornell with your numbers (Assuming 120k is after scholarship and cost of living paid) so I hope you applied to Michigan and Northwestern for scholarship negotiation purposes.

[QContinuum]

I would add that Cornell with Texas ties also has a decent chance of landing you back in Texas for biglaw for 2L summer (and possibly 1L if you have good grades since Texas hires for 1Ls). I actually think you should get more money from Cornell with your numbers (Assuming 120k is after scholarship and cost of living paid) so I hope you applied to Michigan and Northwestern for scholarship negotiation purposes.

Agree. I was just trying to consider the respective "worst case" scenarios for Cornell and UT. From Cornell, the "worst case" is a NYC BigLaw gig, with almost an ironclad guarantee of being able to lateral back to Texas (most likely Houston) in a couple years. From UT, the "worst case" - with an almost 1 in 2 chance of coming true - is missing the BigLaw boat altogether, from which there'd be no getting back on that boat.

[Anon-non-anon]

I would add that Cornell with Texas ties also has a decent chance of landing you back in Texas for biglaw for 2L summer (and possibly 1L if you have good grades since Texas hires for 1Ls). I actually think you should get more money from Cornell with your numbers (Assuming 120k is after scholarship and cost of living paid) so I hope you applied to Michigan and Northwestern for scholarship negotiation purposes.

Agree. I was just trying to consider the respective "worst case" scenarios for Cornell and UT. From Cornell, the "worst case" is a NYC BigLaw gig, with almost an ironclad guarantee of being able to lateral back to Texas (most likely Houston) in a couple years. From UT, the "worst case" - with an almost 1 in 2 chance of coming true - is missing the BigLaw boat altogether, from which there'd be no getting back on that boat.

I'm not sure I buy that 1 in 2 chance of missing biglaw boat at UT given OPs situation and goals.

I would venture to guess UT has a fair amount of selection out of big law as the strongest school in the state (and really region). So if you wanted to do PI / gov and did well, you'd still go to UT and skew biglaw results. That may skew results vs cornell especially, bc many ppl choose Cornell bc it's a great choice for guaranteeing NYC biglaw.

As a result, I really don't think "worst case" of missing big law boat from UT is really 1/2 chance, given that OP is happy to go to NYC or stay in Texas and military background seemed to be well-liked during OCI.

Just my 2 cents. Not saying anyone is super wrong here. But Texas for $0 and maybe even a stipend is an incredible option for someone who wants Texas biglaw. Over $100k of debt is nothing to scoff at.

[trmckenz]

I say UT is a no brainer here. You are a TX resident, want to end up in TX, and have a full ride to go there. Why look anywhere else?

UT is the best school in Texas, and everyone knows it. All the big firms in TX, including NY-based ones, recruit from UT first.

I don't see how Vanderbilt gets you anything additional beyond UT, except that it is a private school and some may prefer that. But Vanderbilt won't beat UT in Texas.

Cornell is great for NYC / general big law, plus it is ranked the highest of the three. It may increase your options for big law outside of TX, but I don't see it moving the needle much in TX.

Importantly, Ithaca sucks so hard compared to Austin.

I understand the desire to really dig into the numbers and make an "informed decision". I also see wisdom in avoiding a worst case scenario of going to UT and not landing big law. But I don't see Cornell being $120k better than UT given your goals. Going to UT for free, IMO, is worth the "risk".

You can get any job you want from UT. Crush it there and enjoy having little debt.

[blackmamba8]

Feel free to PM me, OP. I'm a current Cornell student who struck out at OCI, and I know others who were in the same position as me. The 'worst case' from Cornell is definitely not a NYC BigLaw gig. I'm not bitter because I'm happy with how things ended up, but you have to consider the possibility that you pay a lot more for Cornell and still don't get Big Law. I would go to Texas if I was you.

[cubusmybro]

Feel free to PM me, OP. I'm a current Cornell student who struck out at OCI, and I know others who were in the same position as me. The 'worst case' from Cornell is definitely not a NYC BigLaw gig. I'm not bitter because I'm happy with how things ended up, but you have to consider the possibility that you pay a lot more for Cornell and still don't get Big Law. I would go to Texas if I was you.

I'm interested in hearing more about this, but I haven't posted enough to PM you. Can you PM me? And if not, without doxing yourself, do you regret Cornell? I'm considering depositing there soon.

[QContinuum]

Feel free to PM me, OP. I'm a current Cornell student who struck out at OCI, and I know others who were in the same position as me. The 'worst case' from Cornell is definitely not a NYC BigLaw gig. I'm not bitter because I'm happy with how things ended up, but you have to consider the possibility that you pay a lot more for Cornell and still don't get Big Law. I would go to Texas if I was you.

I'm interested in hearing more about this, but I haven't posted enough to PM you. Can you PM me? And if not, without doxing yourself, do you regret Cornell? I'm considering depositing there soon.

I don't want to at all invalidate blackmamba's experience. That said, the data doesn't lie. 75% of Cornell students land BigLaw or a federal clerkship. At any law school, if 90% of the students want BigLaw (you'll always have at least 10% of the class who are diehard public-interest folks), and 90% of those students who try for BigLaw successfully land BigLaw, that's an 81% placement rate. 75% isn't too far off of that. You're never going to get 100% placement into BigLaw from any school; an 80+% shot, which Cornell offers (~90% of Cornellians wanting BigLaw, with ~83% securing BigLaw slots = ~75% overall placement), is about as good as it possibly gets.

While BigLaw hiring is largely formulaic, there are still pitfalls. Some are avoidable - a common mistake is "bad bidding", wherein a student exclusively targets a tiny secondary market, say, Seattle, or a below-median non-Y/S student exclusively targets a grade-selective market, say, D.C. or CA, or grade-selective firms in NYC. Other mistakes are potentially avoidable - it is possible to wipe out due to being an awful interviewee, but this can be worked around with sufficient advance notice and practice. And, while I don't want to speculate re: blackmamba's race, it is unfortunately true that minorities disproportionately struggle more on the interview circuit.

Anyway, the long and the short of it is, while it's certainly possible to strike out from Cornell, just as it's still possible to strike out from Harvard or even Yale (I know people who've been in those situations), attending Cornell for NYC BigLaw is about as safe as it gets, assuming appropriate interview prep & targeting the appropriate firms.

[decimalsanddollars]

I would go UT, because all 3 schools place reasonably well in biglaw, and while Cornell is "safer," it also happens to be $120,000 more expensive for you, and like an above poster said, Austin is a way better place to spend 3 years of your life than Ithaca. I also don't know if the increase in safety between Cornell and UT is so extreme that it's worth $120k.

[texanslimjim]

120k is not worth the 20 point increase in big law odds. That's also just not a sound way to consider the difference; getting top 50% at UT versus top 75% at Cornell are not necessarily equally likely. Another thing is that UT's low placement in NYC reflects a lot of geographic factors in terms of student preferences for Texas and NY firms not doing OCI in Austin (mainly because so many of the students are not interested in going to NYC).

You need to consider the huge potential downside: taking on heavy debts but failing to get big law (25% odds = the odds of drawing a spade off the top of a freshly shuffled deck), or deciding you don't want big law after all, or deciding the law isn't for you after all. If you go to school with a full ride, you're minimizing the downside in case one of those things happen.

For someone with Texas orientation who has a full ride to UT, Cornell is not enough of an improvement to be worth taking on 6 figures if debt. U Chi or NYU would be a different story.

[lavarman84]

Take the full ride to Texas. The reality is that your preference for what you want to do might change while in law school. If you want to do biglaw, Texas gives you a good shot. If you change your mind and want to do something else, that lack of debt is going to make a huge difference. Texas is a great school, and Austin is a fun city. Plus, you want to end up in Texas. Take the full ride. It's a great deal.

And let's be honest, a lot of people end up hating biglaw. Having little debt means you can get out of biglaw quickly if you don't like it.

[bajablast]

I would add that Cornell with Texas ties also has a decent chance of landing you back in Texas for biglaw for 2L summer (and possibly 1L if you have good grades since Texas hires for 1Ls). I actually think you should get more money from Cornell with your numbers (Assuming 120k is after scholarship and cost of living paid) so I hope you applied to Michigan and Northwestern for scholarship negotiation purposes.

Agree. I was just trying to consider the respective "worst case" scenarios for Cornell and UT. From Cornell, the "worst case" is a NYC BigLaw gig, with almost an ironclad guarantee of being able to lateral back to Texas (most likely Houston) in a couple years. From UT, the "worst case" - with an almost 1 in 2 chance of coming true - is missing the BigLaw boat altogether, from which there'd be no getting back on that boat.

Worst case for Cornell would be going to school there and striking out on big law, and then having difficulty finding a small law job back in Texas with your east cost Cornell network.

[crazywafflez]

Cornell or UT. For your goals, and my bias, I'd pick UT. Vanderbilt shouldn't be in the race here. You've got better offers in general. See if Cornell will give you more. I think I'd still pick UT though tbh. Awesome job though and congrats!