Top Law Schools

Between HLS, Chicago and CLS. Will be close to sticker at Harvard, $ at Columbia and Chicago. Dream is DOJ and judiciary. Thanks for your thoughts.

If we can agree that becoming a judge is highly unlikely from any avenue (which I think is fair) then it's probably prudent to focus on the part of the dream that is reasonably attainable.

DOJ work can be gotten from any of these schools. If your goal is AUSA (which I think is a nice long-term, 7-10-yearish-from-now goal) then you'll want either: school --> clerkship --> DOJ Honors OR school --> clerkship --> firm work --> AUSA. I think it could theoretically be done from any of these schools with school --> clerkship --> DA --> AUSA, I just have never talked to anybody that's done it.

So you're definitely going to want to understand each school's clerkship placement paths. It's probably also a good idea to ask the admissions folks to hook you up with an AUSA who went to that school so you can ask those questions directly.

Personally, I'd take the money. Especially going government. It's not like these guys are scrimping to get by but this DOJ paychart puts some actual numbers to id: https://www.justice.gov/usao/career-cen ... lan-charts

Have you looked a bit further down to Michigan/UVA/Penn? They might be willing to back up the Brinks truck for you for an only slightly smaller chance at the career path.

Are these your only choices? There should be MVP with $$$ or if not then lower T 14 with $$$ or $$$$. I took H and while I’ve gotten some great opportunities so far, I have to say I think about the debt alot when planning my future out (and I’m sure it will suck more when I start paying). In hindsight I can’t say whether I made the right choice or not, but if I were you I’d think long and hard about taking the $ depending on how much you have at each school. If it’s a difference of like 45K total I’d take Harvard but once you get into the 75-100K territory the needle shifts towards Chicago or Columbia imo

Libya wrote: If it’s a difference of like 45K total I’d take Harvard but once you get into the 75-100K territory the needle shifts towards Chicago or Columbia imo

TCR

Depending on price difference, I'd choose Harvard -> Chicago -> Columbia.

Harvard is indisputably the best, though the marginal benefit over Chicago or Columbia is not that big that it's worth $100k difference. Chicago is better than Columbia for geographic reasons. Columbia is much more connected to the hyper-competitive New York and Washington D.C.; the most direct connections are to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th circuits, which everyone wants, whereas Chicago has connections through the entire midwest, where there simply isn't the same level of competition. There's a reason why, if you look at placement statistics, Chicago places noticeably more people into Fed. clerkships than Columbia.

[+] Spoiler

yes, I know all fedreal clerkships are hypercompetitive, and it's not about geography, and there are professors at every one of these schools that could have connections to any federal judge; but by and large, Chicago has much more and better connections to the midwest, and a much smaller chance that the same judge that's getting a call from your professor is getting a call from a professor at NYU about a competing applicant

Can you post the actual COA for each school and how much debt you're expecting from each? What does "$" from CLS and Chicago mean? And do you have any other options?

HLS is worth $90,000 more than CLS and UChicago. Hamilton/Rubenstein is another story.

Wild Card wrote:HLS is worth $90,000 more than CLS and UChicago. Hamilton/Rubenstein is another story.

I completely disagree. I know it's not part of the above discussion, but for biglaw, Columbia easily places just as well as Harvard. Chicago places just as well as Harvard for Federal clerkships (in 2018, Chicago actually beat Harvard significantly - 24% of Chicago students got Federal clerkships, compared to 15% at Harvard)
As a matter of fact, in 2018, Columbia and Chicago both outplaced Harvard in objectively 'desirable' outcomes. (and, because some categories are a little hard to determine, a significantly larger number of Harvard grads ended up in objectively bad outcomes).

So no, Harvard is not worth $90k more than CLS or Chicago. Objectively, having now looked at the data, I'm not sure if Harvard is worth a penny more than CLS or Chicago.

Delano wrote:Can you post the actual COA for each school and how much debt you're expecting from each? What does "$" from CLS and Chicago mean? And do you have any other options?

$50,000 to $60,000 total aid at CLS and Chicago. Very close to full price at HLS. About $290,000 total debt at Harvard, $230,000 at the others.

Major Kong wrote:

Delano wrote:Can you post the actual COA for each school and how much debt you're expecting from each? What does "$" from CLS and Chicago mean? And do you have any other options?

$50,000 to $60,000 total aid at CLS and Chicago. Very close to full price at HLS. About $290,000 total debt at Harvard, $230,000 at the others.

Pretty much a dead heat at those prices, and since that's a lot of debt I'd strongly strongly consider taking more money at another T14 if it's an option. You don't want to be down $300k on gov't salary.

The Lsat Airbender wrote:

Major Kong wrote:

Delano wrote:Can you post the actual COA for each school and how much debt you're expecting from each? What does "$" from CLS and Chicago mean? And do you have any other options?

$50,000 to $60,000 total aid at CLS and Chicago. Very close to full price at HLS. About $290,000 total debt at Harvard, $230,000 at the others.

Pretty much a dead heat at those prices, and since that's a lot of debt I'd strongly strongly consider taking more money at another T14 if it's an option. You don't want to be down $300k on gov't salary.

Yep. That debt level is devastating and is going to make government dreams (and a lot of other things) really hard and will follow you for many, many years. If you had financial aid at H or outside financial support to lessen the burden, it would be a different question, but I could never advise someone to take on nearly $300k in debt for a law degree.

Do you have other options and what are they? If you got into HLS, you should definitely be in the running for $$$ elsewhere in the t14. It's still early for financial aid, so there may be places you haven't heard from.

Major Kong wrote:

Delano wrote:Can you post the actual COA for each school and how much debt you're expecting from each? What does "$" from CLS and Chicago mean? And do you have any other options?

$50,000 to $60,000 total aid at CLS and Chicago. Very close to full price at HLS. About $290,000 total debt at Harvard, $230,000 at the others.

You should know that biglaw firms are firing first-year associates now, and the vast majority of biglaw associates leave their firms after 4 or 5 years of practice. Where they go off to, nobody knows.

I think that a Harvard Law degree will help you land a higher rank firm initially. And after your first firm fires you, after 2 to 4 years, and you want to lateral to another firm (or try something completely different), I think an HLS degree will soften your landing. And then after your second firm fires you, an HLS will again soften your landing. And so on.

So your trajectory might look like V10 > V50 > v100 > in house (HLS) rather than V50 > V100 > leaving law entirely (CLS).

Your life in the law might be better and last longer, in other words.

And if you decide to, or are forced to, leave the law altogether, laypersons are more impressed by a Harvard degree than a Columbia degree.

--

I come from a lower middle class background and an immigrant family and got $60,000 from NYU. I would have gladly traded it for sticker at HLS. $60,000 to $90,000 feels like a lot of money, but you're going to be working for the next 30 to 50 years of your life, so you want to set yourself up for long-term success.

Wild Card wrote:So your trajectory might look like V10 > V50 > v100 > in house (HLS) rather than V50 > V100 > leaving law entirely (CLS).

That's not what most corporate biglaw career trajectories look like, regardless of the school. And the notion that CLS students are somehow less competitive for firms with an arbitrary vault ranking cutoff is fucking absurd.

I get that you've built up some weird inferiority complex regarding going to a "lesser" school (NYU, how plebeian), but stop projecting that onto the advice you give 0Ls.

Wild Card wrote:So your trajectory might look like V10 > V50 > v100 > in house (HLS) rather than V50 > V100 > leaving law entirely (CLS).

the difference between these two scenarios is *not* whether you went to HLS or Columbia. This is silly.

nixy wrote:

Wild Card wrote:So your trajectory might look like V10 > V50 > v100 > in house (HLS) rather than V50 > V100 > leaving law entirely (CLS).

the difference between these two scenarios is *not* whether you went to HLS or Columbia. This is silly.

it's also completely fictional.

I've had classmates who missed the biglaw boat initially and managed to get there eventually, including one who just lateraled into a V10.

Likewise, anyone who is getting fired as a first year is gonna have a lot of trouble landing anywhere (see related thread in the employment forum).

There are a lot of paths in law. While there are ideal outcomes, there are plenty of other acceptable outcomes. TLS is very set on the bimodal outcome, which to some degree is true when you first graduate, but several years out, the outcomes are much more variable

Yes, it's great to make scale for for several years and then make partner, or get an article 3 clerkship and eventually a USAO position. Yes, it sucks if you can't get any law job and exit with a boatload of debt. But there is a world of different outcomes between them. Unfortunately, there is very little data about it, there's no clear path, and it's very much a matter of luck.

As an aside, statistically, the attrition rate in biglaw is roughly 16% per year. Despite what people think, not all are counseled out, plenty of people leave voluntary, because biglaw is a hard life. Despite what every T14 grad thinks, biglaw isn't paying them $190k/year because they're good at the law, the firms are paying that kind of money for you to sacrifice your life.

Wild Card wrote:So your trajectory might look like V10 > V50 > v100 > in house (HLS) rather than V50 > V100 > leaving law entirely (CLS).

My god, you sound like one of those doomsday preppers on television--unmoored from reality but projecting that the sky is falling nonetheless.

Given your goals, OP, I'd either take the cheaper options at CLS/Chicago, or try and get even more money from MVP rather than paying ~300k to go to HLS. I just don't see the value add at those prices.

cavalier1138 wrote:

Wild Card wrote:So your trajectory might look like V10 > V50 > v100 > in house (HLS) rather than V50 > V100 > leaving law entirely (CLS).

That's not what most corporate biglaw career trajectories look like, regardless of the school. And the notion that CLS students are somehow less competitive for firms with an arbitrary vault ranking cutoff is fucking absurd.

I get that you've built up some weird inferiority complex regarding going to a "lesser" school (NYU, how plebeian), but stop projecting that onto the advice you give 0Ls.

Yes.
But this is all a moot point because OP should not take either of these options.

Delano wrote:

The Lsat Airbender wrote:

Major Kong wrote:

Delano wrote:Can you post the actual COA for each school and how much debt you're expecting from each? What does "$" from CLS and Chicago mean? And do you have any other options?

$50,000 to $60,000 total aid at CLS and Chicago. Very close to full price at HLS. About $290,000 total debt at Harvard, $230,000 at the others.

Pretty much a dead heat at those prices, and since that's a lot of debt I'd strongly strongly consider taking more money at another T14 if it's an option. You don't want to be down $300k on gov't salary.

Yep. That debt level is devastating and is going to make government dreams (and a lot of other things) really hard and will follow you for many, many years. If you had financial aid at H or outside financial support to lessen the burden, it would be a different question, but I could never advise someone to take on nearly $300k in debt for a law degree.

Do you have other options and what are they? If you got into HLS, you should definitely be in the running for $$$ elsewhere in the t14. It's still early for financial aid, so there may be places you haven't heard from.

I am in at NYU but have either not heard or been w/l'd from all the other T-14 save 2 - and no money offers yet from any. I suppose I could tell them I would attend if I get XX dollars, but not sure how to proceed with that approach. Anyone have experience with this?

Major Kong wrote:

Delano wrote:

The Lsat Airbender wrote:

Major Kong wrote:

Delano wrote:Can you post the actual COA for each school and how much debt you're expecting from each? What does "$" from CLS and Chicago mean? And do you have any other options?

$50,000 to $60,000 total aid at CLS and Chicago. Very close to full price at HLS. About $290,000 total debt at Harvard, $230,000 at the others.

Pretty much a dead heat at those prices, and since that's a lot of debt I'd strongly strongly consider taking more money at another T14 if it's an option. You don't want to be down $300k on gov't salary.

Yep. That debt level is devastating and is going to make government dreams (and a lot of other things) really hard and will follow you for many, many years. If you had financial aid at H or outside financial support to lessen the burden, it would be a different question, but I could never advise someone to take on nearly $300k in debt for a law degree.

Do you have other options and what are they? If you got into HLS, you should definitely be in the running for $$$ elsewhere in the t14. It's still early for financial aid, so there may be places you haven't heard from.

I am in at NYU but have either not heard or been w/l'd from all the other T-14 save 2 - and no money offers yet from any. I suppose I could tell them I would attend if I get XX dollars, but not sure how to proceed with that approach. Anyone have experience with this?

The choice is not real until you have those other two finaid offers. Whichever 2 you're in with you should be on the phone/visiting to show your interest. Once they get the message that you're serious about possibly attending they're more likely to get serious about $$$. Just be professional about it. Wait for their initial offer, come back with "Hey, I've got an offer at (CLS/UChi) that is currently at the top of my list. I would really love to come to your school but at the current cost it's not possible. Is there any way I could apply for reconsideration?"

Obv not everyone will play ball, but if you've developed good rapport they'll probably at least look at the offer again.

Major Kong wrote:

Delano wrote:

The Lsat Airbender wrote:

Major Kong wrote:

Delano wrote:Can you post the actual COA for each school and how much debt you're expecting from each? What does "$" from CLS and Chicago mean? And do you have any other options?

$50,000 to $60,000 total aid at CLS and Chicago. Very close to full price at HLS. About $290,000 total debt at Harvard, $230,000 at the others.

Pretty much a dead heat at those prices, and since that's a lot of debt I'd strongly strongly consider taking more money at another T14 if it's an option. You don't want to be down $300k on gov't salary.

Yep. That debt level is devastating and is going to make government dreams (and a lot of other things) really hard and will follow you for many, many years. If you had financial aid at H or outside financial support to lessen the burden, it would be a different question, but I could never advise someone to take on nearly $300k in debt for a law degree.

Do you have other options and what are they? If you got into HLS, you should definitely be in the running for $$$ elsewhere in the t14. It's still early for financial aid, so there may be places you haven't heard from.

I am in at NYU but have either not heard or been w/l'd from all the other T-14 save 2 - and no money offers yet from any. I suppose I could tell them I would attend if I get XX dollars, but not sure how to proceed with that approach. Anyone have experience with this?

Iirc $$$ at a lot of schools doesn't often start coming out until late February and will continue throughout March. I would wait until you've heard from more places before trying to negotiate.

Delano wrote:Iirc $$$ at a lot of schools doesn't often start coming out until late February and will continue throughout March. I would wait until you've heard from more places before trying to negotiate.

On the other hand, might as well start negotiating now with the three offers OP has in hand.

- Ask Harvard to reconsider their aid package (unless you/your parents are wealthy enough that it'd just be a waste of everyone's time).

- Tell UChicago that you're in at H and struggling with the decision because, even with their current offer, Chicago Law would still be super expensive.

- Tell Columbia that you got a similar scholarship at Chicago and need a little more help to justify the CoL in New York. Etc.

If Chicago and/or CLS bump up to $80-100k then you're in a pretty good spot to twist (e.g.) Virginia's arm for $150-$180k. You could save a life-changing amount of money with a dozen emails and phone calls.

The Lsat Airbender wrote: You could save a life-changing amount of money with a dozen emails and phone calls.

This. Closed mouths don't get fed. Send out some emails and make some calls. It's the only way you're going to get more money, and you could get quite a bit of it at that.

Can we assume you have visited all 3 and are happy with the "vibe" at each? All great schools but maybe the experience at each is different. Not saying that "vibe" will make student loan payments or pay cost of living, but it might be a tie breaker on a close call or a way to eliminate one option.

My two-cents (for what little it is worth as a person that has never attended any of those schools): I would go UChicago. Good shot at Chicago market (great firms at a much cheaper CoL than NYC) but you could still hit up the NYC market. While I'm sure Harvard and Columbia could paper Chicago and do fine I have heard there is a bit of Chicago bias towards UChicago yet UChicago should place just fine in NYC.(edit: yes, you said you wanted a government job but if you have to do big law for a bit then this might play into things and you never know how life shakes out).

Echo the dialing for dollars sentiment from others: squeaky wheel gets the extra aid money.

wishywashy wrote:My two-cents (for what little it is worth as a person that has never attended any of those schools): I would go UChicago. Good shot at Chicago market (great firms at a much cheaper CoL than NYC) but you could still hit up the NYC market. While I'm sure Harvard and Columbia could paper Chicago and do fine I have heard there is a bit of Chicago bias towards UChicago yet UChicago should place just fine in NYC.(edit: yes, you said you wanted a government job but if you have to do big law for a bit then this might play into things and you never know how life shakes out).

There's other markets besides Chicago and NYC, though (like DC, which OP should be interested in if they want to work for the DOJ), and HLS is meaningfully ahead of CCN in most of them.