Taking Columbia over HLS: mistake? Forum

[shohreh]

Columbia is 50k cheaper than Harvard for me, but I'm sure it's a draw with COL. My goals are kind of lofty so I'd like some help.

My goals: NYC biglaw at a litigation boutique or firm with a great litigation practice (like Quinn, BSF, S&C, Cravath, etc). I want to do a clerkship too, but not interested in doing a clerkship in a flyover district for a year or two. I'm worried that some of these firms might "require" it through. 2nd/SDNY/EDNY sounds perfect but if I got 9/DC I would take that too.

I'm not interested in academia, PI, or running for office or something where Harvard would provide a strong advantage. I do think Harvard is better for my goals, but I really did not like it when I visited. I didn't like Cambridge either. I prefer to just stay in NYC by a mile, I don't think I'll ever leave. Is the prestige of Harvard really going to do me big favors over Columbia?

[The Lsat Airbender]

If you really love NYC that much then it's not like you're completely shooting yourself in the foot by taking CLS at equal price. It's especially fine if you're okay with the worst-case outcome of pushing paper at some V50 (this is also a concern with Harvard, tbf).

But if there's any flavor of career goal where the delta between Harvard and Columbia actually matters, it's prestige-sensitive, clerkship-mandatory litigation. You should strongly consider just dealing with being elsewhere 5 years (only 3 if you get lucky on clerkship location) for the sake of your career.

[Dcc617]

Getting a high profile clerkship from Harvard isn't some cakewalk. If your grades are good enough at Harvard they'll be good enough at Columbia.

All things being equal, pick Harvard. However, all things are not equal, so feel free to go to Columbia. Being miserable in Cambridge is a real thing for a lot of people. Save some money and be happy.

[Splurgles23]

I can tell you with a high degree of confidence that some of the smaller litigation shops you're aiming for will be easier to get to from HLS than CLS, as will the clerkships that are almost mandatory in order to get into those small shops. As others point out, the delta between CLS and HLS is not huge, but it's there, especially in the margins, and especially for people like you who have specific, relatively lofty aims.

[Dcc617]

What are you basing that on?

[cavalier1138]

Getting a high profile clerkship from Harvard isn't some cakewalk. If your grades are good enough at Harvard they'll be good enough at Columbia.

Yeah, the OP is aiming for outcomes that require good grades (or whatever it is Harvard uses instead of grades) from either school. Competitive appellate clerkships are competitive from everywhere, and I just don't see how spending an extra $50k at Harvard is going to make the Second Circuit appreciably more likely for the OP.

More importantly, it's kind of dumb for 0Ls to get laser-focused on these kinds of clerkships; they're one-year jobs that the overwhelming majority of law students at top schools will still never have a chance at. And they don't make or break your career.

[FND]

I can tell you with a high degree of confidence that some of the smaller litigation shops you're aiming for will be easier to get to from HLS than CLS, as will the clerkships that are almost mandatory in order to get into those small shops. As others point out, the delta between CLS and HLS is not huge, but it's there, especially in the margins, and especially for people like you who have specific, relatively lofty aims.

I'm very curious about this statement, and would love to know which firms you're specifically talking about

[The Lsat Airbender]

Competitive appellate clerkships are competitive from everywhere, and I just don't see how spending an extra $50k at Harvard is going to make the Second Circuit appreciably more likely for the OP.

I agree, but OP is assuming (maybe a little too pessimistically, since it assumes that NY is like $1500/mo more expensive) that CoL differences will wash out most of that $50k delta. Actual difference is probably more like $20-30k.

I'm one of the biggest debt hawks on this board but I think the low five digits is a pretty good price for the slightly-better grade inflation and professor connections at Harvard (in situations like this one, where clerking would actually make a big difference for OP attaining their goals).

On the other hand I definitely agree with dcc and you that Columbia is a perfectly fine choice here and that, if OP would hate being in Cambridge for 3 years, Harvard would probably be a mistake.

[stoopkid13]

If you go to CLS, you have a 100% chance of spending three years in New York. If you go to HLS, you will have a 15% better chance at lit boutiques/clerking, but it's an uphill battle either way. I'm also not sure theres as much marginal value for a V5 like Cravath.

If you really prefer nyc by a mile, I'd just stay in nyc.

[Anon-non-anon]

I can tell you with a high degree of confidence that some of the smaller litigation shops you're aiming for will be easier to get to from HLS than CLS, as will the clerkships that are almost mandatory in order to get into those small shops. As others point out, the delta between CLS and HLS is not huge, but it's there, especially in the margins, and especially for people like you who have specific, relatively lofty aims.

I'm very curious about this statement, and would love to know which firms you're specifically talking about

I'm also curious what firms would fit into this category, especially in NYC... I can imagine something in DC or Boston, but I severely doubt anyone with relatively similar stats from HLS vs CLS would get an interview at a boutique where the other wouldn't. Maybe compounding effect from a better clerkship at the margins, but still... if your profile qualifies you for an NYC lit boutique coming from HLS, the same profile w/ CLS swapped out is going to get the same look.

[nealric]

Competitive appellate clerkships are competitive from everywhere, and I just don't see how spending an extra $50k at Harvard is going to make the Second Circuit appreciably more likely for the OP.

I agree, but OP is assuming (maybe a little too pessimistically, since it assumes that NY is like $1500/mo more expensive) that CoL differences will wash out most of that $50k delta. Actual difference is probably more like $20-30k.

I would guess the cost delta is not even $20k, unless you decide to make it that. You aren't really paying NYC market housing prices at CLS, and I wouldn't expect a drastic difference for food or other expenses either.

Getting one of those top boutiques probably is a bit easier at H, but I agree with the assessment that it's maybe a 15-20% better chance. If you are miserable in Cambridge, you may perform more poorly than if you are happy in NYC. That being said, if you get into Y, just go there- it's really the best bet for the work you are interested in. I will say that S&C/Quinn is probably an easier bet than Boies and other smaller shops just by virtue of the former's much larger recruiting volume.

[Libya]

OP, you cannot really limit yourself to those courts before law school even starts. There is no real rhyme or reason why you listed the courts you did, so I’m assuming you’re interested in them for “prestige”; however, basically any COA clerkship is competitive and prestigious. To be honest you have a pretty mediocre chance of clerking at these courts (9th Circuit probably less so because of the sheer size) from either school; H is a good school but it does not have the AIII placement power of Y by any means. For example, I personally know people in the top 10% applying to second tier District courts (think Cleveland, Miami, Atlanta, Houston) as well as COAs not in major cities. I will say, for your goals H is probably the better choice. Just do not go in expecting a high powered COA clerkship and a job offer at Susman. From the research I’ve done on HLS outcomes, the most likely outcome (median grades) would probably be an SA at a V20 and a D.Ct. clerkship either in “flyover” country or in a less competitive city than the major markets (along with a good chance it’ll be a year or two out). This is not a bad median outcome by any metric, however, and I also do know people that have clerked for circuit courts from median (though this is not likely)

[FND]

Look, this whole line of questioning is ridiculous.
Anywhere in the T6*, you got to screw up royally to not have a good outcome, and generally speaking it's just as hard to get certain outcomes from every one of these schools, and any opportunity you could get at one school you could also get at another.

*except for Yale, which sends by far more students into academia and clerkships than any other school, and only a relatively small proportion of students to biglaw - less than any other T14, and less than some schools ranked much lower than that.

That being said, each school does have a big of an edge, which is probably more through self-selection than anything else, with Stanford, Harvard, and Chicago sending somewhat more students to clerkships, NYU sending more into public interest, and Columbia sending more to biglaw, and specifically NY biglaw.

In a vacuum with all else being equal, (and Yale being off the table), for a clerkship it makes sense to pick Stanford, Harvard, or Chicago over Columbia, and if you're gunning for New York firms Columbia is the way to go. But the difference is not that big. No matter what the desired outcome, if there's a noticeable price difference, choose the cheapest of those schools

[jbagelboy]

I clerked on one of the appellate courts you mention and worked/work at an elite litigation firm comparable or better to the ones you mention (for what it’s worth, S&C and Cravath are not elite litigation boutiques, they are mega corporate.)

There is not much of a difference in prestige or placement power between HLS and CLS here, so go wherever you’d rather be. Columbia places similar to Harvard at standard v10 firms like Cravath, S&C, or Davis Polk, and the margin for clerkships is narrowest for those New York-based clerkships (certainly not 15%, per a post above; something more marginal than that); it gets a little more favorable for HLS the further afield, such as DC Circuit or elite boutiques in smaller markets, and the distinctions become material if you’re talking about academia. But if you’re focused on staying in New York for a legal career in private practice, you are never doing yourself a disservice by going to Columbia.