Top Law Schools

I know it is too early in the cycle for these posts, but I need a general idea where I'm more likely to end up in so my SO can start looking out for job postings. Since HYS has been ghosting me the whole time, I think I'm more likely than not going to face the decision between T4-6.

- Money is absolutely no issue, so I don't really care about scholarship offers
- I don't really care about cities either, Chicago and NYC are both acceptable cities for me and my SO
- My goal is to get into a vault 20 firm upon graduation; I'm interested in M&A or international law

Any insights are enormously appreciated!!!

1) Seriously, unless your family has like millions of dollars in disposable income money should be a consideration, especially if you're just shooting for biglaw. A seriously discounted degree from Penn or Northwestern can get you to a big law firm just as well as sticker from CCN. You'd just save hundreds of thousands.

2) Why the focus on Vault 20? Vault is not really an indicator of anything. It's especially unimportant when you're looking a firms that pay the same and differ in important ways like practice groups or culture.

3) Why M&A or international law? Do you know what those entail? What sort of international law?

I'm not sure what insights you're hoping to gain. If money is no object (I never understand people who feel like they can burn six figures and not bat an eye) and location doesn't matter, then you might as well throw darts at a map to decide. All three of these schools give you a great shot at biglaw.

And the above poster is also correct about everything they said.

Because money is no object, I’ll bite.

Columbia. Strong biglaw culture, and being in NYC allows you to quickly and readily interview for openings at the drop of a hat if OCI doesn’t go as planned.

I’m going to get dragged for this, but (at least in my own very limited experience) there is also a small but noticeable prestige/selectivity difference between Columbia and NYU. Maybe others have different experiences, but at my V10 and related events, I regularly hear people talking about “the top 5” schools—“T6” is a formulation I’ve heard nowhere other than TLS.

Do you seriously hear people regularly talk about law school prestige at firm events? Because yikes, that sounds like a 0L fever dream.

Vursz wrote:Because money is no object, I’ll bite.

Columbia. Strong biglaw culture, and being in NYC allows you to quickly and readily interview for openings at the drop of a hat if OCI doesn’t go as planned.

I’m going to get dragged for this, but (at least in my own very limited experience) there is also a small but noticeable prestige/selectivity difference between Columbia and NYU. Maybe others have different experiences, but at my V10 and related events, I regularly hear people talking about “the top 5” schools—“T6” is a formulation I’ve heard nowhere other than TLS.

Top 5 just rolls off the tongue better - people are more used to the concept of the best 5 than the best 6, for whatever reason.

That being said, Columbia does have a slight edge over NYU in prestige in corporate NY. Not enough to make a difference, and I wouldn't recommend paying a single dollar more for one than the other, but, all things being equal, Columbia is the better option.

Dcc617 wrote:1) Seriously, unless your family has like millions of dollars in disposable income money should be a consideration, especially if you're just shooting for biglaw. A seriously discounted degree from Penn or Northwestern can get you to a big law firm just as well as sticker from CCN. You'd just save hundreds of thousands.

If OPs family is financing law school, the best way to think about it is having a full ride anywhere. At the end of the day, it's someone elses money. And a full ride to Chicago is objectively a better situation than a full ride to Northwestern. While both are terrific schools, they do place differently.

Yeah, if they're super rich. If they're not, then that's money that could go to anything else (house, retirement, etc.)

OP has not clarified why money is not an issue. Maybe they're just cool with debt financing, who knows?

Yeah, for UMC types whose parents can afford to put them through law school, it's not "someone else's money". It's in the family and it's eventually coming downstream, whether through inheritance, or helping buy a first house, etc. The ROI on law school is pretty crappy which makes it a bad use of this money.

Law school is expensive enough that you can only really handwave it for people with net worth in the mid-eight-figures and up (and/or income in the mid-seven-figures and up). At that point it's just a splashy discretionary expense, like buying your kid a car.

Both Columbia and Chicago are much better than NYU.

I went to an elite college, and alums from my college virtually all went to Harvard or Columbia. Columbia is THE law school for coastal elite who don't make it into Harvard. Columbia is respectable--NYU is not. Also, the student body at Columbia is stronger, as measured by LSAT. And it's easier to graduate with honors from Columbia: 3.41 for "Stone Scholar" rather than 3.6X for cum laude at NYU. (It is extremely difficult to get a 3.6X+ in law school because of curves.)

Chicago is king of the Midwest, and it also draws exceptional students. It remains highly respectable.

Both are far better than NYU, to be brief.

Wild Card wrote:Both Columbia and Chicago are much better than NYU.

I went to an elite college, and alums from my college virtually all went to Harvard or Columbia. Columbia is THE law school for coastal elite who don't make it into Harvard. Columbia is respectable--NYU is not. Also, the student body at Columbia is stronger, as measured by LSAT. And it's easier to graduate with honors from Columbia: 3.41 for "Stone Scholar" rather than 3.6X for cum laude at NYU. (It is extremely difficult to get a 3.6X+ in law school because of curves.)

Chicago is king of the Midwest, and it also draws exceptional students. It remains highly respectable.

Both are far better than NYU, to be brief.

The quality of your composition is slipping.

Also, you're wrong, especially since this thread is about the narrow criterion of V20 M&A.

Also 100% wrong because some ephemeral idea of prestige in some mysterious circles is a terrible reason to pick law schools. Focus on employment outcomes and debt.

Also, NYU is a peer to Chicago and Columbia.

Dcc617 wrote:Also 100% wrong because some ephemeral idea of prestige in some mysterious circles is a terrible reason to pick law schools. Focus on employment outcomes and debt.

Also, NYU is a peer to Chicago and Columbia.

To be fair, TLS is its own mysterious circle with an ephemeral idea of prestige. We like to (sometimes) cite (selective) numbers and data when it suits us, but I've increasingly noticed that the way people carve up stuff here (the "conventional TLS wisdom") isn't actually shared by a lot of people in the country, let alone internationally.

Wild Card wrote:Both Columbia and Chicago are much better than NYU.

I went to an elite college, and alums from my college virtually all went to Harvard or Columbia. Columbia is THE law school for coastal elite who don't make it into Harvard. Columbia is respectable--NYU is not. Also, the student body at Columbia is stronger, as measured by LSAT. And it's easier to graduate with honors from Columbia: 3.41 for "Stone Scholar" rather than 3.6X for cum laude at NYU. (It is extremely difficult to get a 3.6X+ in law school because of curves.)

Chicago is king of the Midwest, and it also draws exceptional students. It remains highly respectable.

Both are far better than NYU, to be brief.

Do you ever get bored of posting this nonsense?

Splurgles23 wrote:

Dcc617 wrote:Also 100% wrong because some ephemeral idea of prestige in some mysterious circles is a terrible reason to pick law schools. Focus on employment outcomes and debt.

Also, NYU is a peer to Chicago and Columbia.

To be fair, TLS is its own mysterious circle with an ephemeral idea of prestige. We like to (sometimes) cite (selective) numbers and data when it suits us, but I've increasingly noticed that the way people carve up stuff here (the "conventional TLS wisdom") isn't actually shared by a lot of people in the country, let alone internationally.

people or lawyers? (also, for most people, international prestige is pretty irrelevant.)

I don't know about the midwest, but in NYC, when you talk to 'people' Columbia does have more 'prestige' than NYU, BUT NYU places just as well as Columbia. The difference is purely psychological. A student will rank roughly the same at NYU as they will at Columbia, and will have roughly the same job outcomes.

Historically there was, and may also still be, a certain amount of self-selection where NYU students are more likely to go the non-corporate route (non-profits, government) and Columbia students are more likely to go the corporate route (biglaw), and the politics of the student body used to (and may still) be somewhat different because of it, but again )today) the difference is purely psychological.

All things being equal, I'd choose Columbia over NYU, but I wouldn't pay $1 more for the pleasure.

Frankly if I were a 22-year-old 0L I'd take NYU in a heartbeat (assuming equal price) for its better location.

If you have DGAF money, Columbia.

Otherwise, whichever is less expensive.

Any of the three will get you some high ranked vault firm that has both M&A and “international” facing practices in corporate or litigation unless you are towards the bottom of the class. This holds equally across all three.

As an aside, your practice goals are a bit nebulous to put it generously, which is fine for an 0L, but you may want to consider taking your first year as an opportunity to speak with some lawyers in private practice and refine your goals.