Top Law Schools

I'm looking for advice on where to enroll in law school this coming fall. I know that none of these schools are "top law schools" and I know there will be a bunch of people that tell me to retake the LSAT but I won't. haha
Me and my wife want to end up working somewhere either in the pacific northwest (where my family is) or Utah/Arizona (her family, and where I did my undergrad). I'm interested in general small business law and see myself working in a small firm in the private sector.

Oregon $40,000/year (about 90% tuition)
Arizona $31,000/year (full tuition)
Willamette $46,000/year (full)
Utah (no scholarship info yet, but I'm guessing it will be about half in-state tuition)
Gonzaga $29,000/year

I know that Arizona is the highest ranked school, but their employment/bar numbers are middle of the pack with these schools so maybe someone could help me out on why they are ranked so much higher.

Thanks people!

Are these numbers the scholarships you received? Or what you expect to pay?

grantspasslaw wrote:I'm looking for advice on where to enroll in law school this coming fall. I know that none of these schools are "top law schools" and I know there will be a bunch of people that tell me to retake the LSAT but I won't. haha
Me and my wife want to end up working somewhere either in the pacific northwest (where my family is) or Utah/Arizona (her family, and where I did my undergrad). I'm interested in general small business law and see myself working in a small firm in the private sector.

Oregon $40,000/year (about 90% tuition)
Arizona $31,000/year (full tuition)
Willamette $46,000/year (full)
Utah (no scholarship info yet, but I'm guessing it will be about half in-state tuition)
Gonzaga $29,000/year

I know that Arizona is the highest ranked school, but their employment/bar numbers are middle of the pack with these schools so maybe someone could help me out on why they are ranked so much higher.

Thanks people!

Define "small firm"? What salary are you hoping to make after graduation? Do you care whether you end up in the pacific northwest or in Utah / Arizona? Do you see the need to move at some point in the future?

Assuming you're listing scholarship info, then I guess Arizona and Oregon make the most sense unless Utah ends up being close to the same price. You just need to determine whether you would rather be in AZ or Oregon and if you would be fine making $60k out of law school.

trebekismyhero wrote:Assuming you're listing scholarship info, then I guess Arizona and Oregon make the most sense unless Utah ends up being close to the same price. You just need to determine whether you would rather be in AZ or Oregon and if you would be fine making $60k out of law school.

+1. The PNW and Southwest are generally considered insular markets: hard to break into without going to law school there or having strong ties (ideally, both). It sounds like you have strong ties to the PNW and moderately strong Southwest ties, but they are different markets, and picking a school at that rank-level probably won't make you portable between the markets if you change your mind on which market to be in.

I agree with trebek that Oregon and Arizona make the most sense, and I'd add that I only think Utah makes sense if you want to be in Utah/SLC rather than Arizona. I'm basing this on scholarship outcomes rather than (presumably similar) employment outcomes---a full ride is a big deal, and Arizona doesn't pull scholarships for failing to make top half. Utah DOES give conditional scholarships (more than 2/3 of their scholarships are conditional), and they give out far fewer of them: 55% of matriculants had scholarships or grants, and only 2% got a full ride (more than full tuition; they did not give full-tuition-only scholarships). Arizona for no money is a great deal if you want to be in the Southwest, and I think that's a better offer than anything Utah is likely to give you unless you're set on practicing in Utah.

Yes all numbers are scholarship offers. And by small firm I mean 2-12 attorneys. I'd like to be starting around $60k or so.

grantspasslaw wrote:Yes all numbers are scholarship offers. And by small firm I mean 2-12 attorneys. I'd like to be starting around $60k or so.

Pacific Northwest is a large area. If you mean Washington State or Idaho, that's not quite the same as if you mean Oregon.

If you really dont' have a preference between Oregon and Arizona, go with whichever school has the lowest total cost (tuition and cost of living). If all you're looking for is a job in a small firm in the location of the law school, either is fine. Gonzaga is too expensive, and I don't see Willamette being worth even $10k more than Oregon or Arizona.

FND wrote:

grantspasslaw wrote:Yes all numbers are scholarship offers. And by small firm I mean 2-12 attorneys. I'd like to be starting around $60k or so.

Pacific Northwest is a large area. If you mean Washington State or Idaho, that's not quite the same as if you mean Oregon.

If you really dont' have a preference between Oregon and Arizona, go with whichever school has the lowest total cost (tuition and cost of living). If all you're looking for is a job in a small firm in the location of the law school, either is fine. Gonzaga is too expensive, and I don't see Willamette being worth even $10k more than Oregon or Arizona.

Thanks for your advice. Do you feel it would be difficult to get a job in Washington or Idaho with a degree from the University of Oregon? I believe out of pocket expense would be around $8,000/year at Oregon and the scholarship is contingent on a 2.5 GPA. Willamette would be free every year and is guaranteed. Arizona is also free every year guaranteed as long as I am in good academic standing.

I know that the regional pull is extremely important, but how difficult would it be to break into the PNW coming from Arizona?

Right now I feel like we would slightly rather live in Oregon/Washington, but I also feel that Arizona is a much better deal.

grantspasslaw wrote: Thanks for your advice. Do you feel it would be difficult to get a job in Washington or Idaho with a degree from the University of Oregon? I believe out of pocket expense would be around $8,000/year at Oregon and the scholarship is contingent on a 2.5 GPA. Willamette would be free every year and is guaranteed. Arizona is also free every year guaranteed as long as I am in good academic standing.

I know that the regional pull is extremely important, but how difficult would it be to break into the PNW coming from Arizona?

Right now I feel like we would slightly rather live in Oregon/Washington, but I also feel that Arizona is a much better deal.

I wouldn't go to Oregon, and it has nothing to do with placement. Oregon's curve is 2.67-2.75, so if you're barely below average you'll lose your scholarship. On top of that, I recall (but can't find) allegations of section-stacking. That's where the school puts everyone with a scholarship in the same section, guaranteeing that quite a few of them lose their scholarship.

Considering your goal of working for a small (2-12) firm with a modest salary, Willamette will do just fine in Oregon, Washington, and Idaho (if you're not targeting Seattle, Portland or Boise)

Arizona's a great choice if you want to be in Arizona. It's not going to help you get to the PNW. Basically, if you're looking to be in a small firm, you want to be on the ground making connections and meeting people from day one of law school - getting that kind of a job is much more about who you know and relevant experience than it is about grades. A lot of my classmates who went to such firms worked for them while in school.

I don't want to entirely overstate things - people do move around and get hired in places other than where they attended a regional school. But it's putting a lot of unnecessary obstacles in your own way.

I am not sure that Oregon or Gonzaga have much of any reach outside of their home states. Basing this on working in the region a few years and not seeing many grads from those schools (I am from Portland and work in Seattle now). Willamette isn't worth the extra money.

Do not take Oregon unless you want to be in Oregon and are fine with being in a smaller market. Portland is a small legal market and an Oregon degree doesn't guarantee placement in Portland. I've seen Oregon grads make it to Seattle but it is pretty rare and takes some legwork or connections.

I wouldn't take Gonzaga unless you're comfortable staying in eastern Washington or perhaps Idaho. Although you can make it to Tacoma or Seattle from there, you have a lot of competition from UW, Seattle U, and T14 grads. I know only maybe two recent Gonzaga grads in Seattle, the rest are ancient and probably started working here when it was a much less competitive market.

Of your options, if you don't have a huge preference about where you live, I'd take Arizona. It seems to place better in its state and region than Oregon or Gonzaga. Also, Arizona seems to be growing, and real estate is still fairly cheap there compared to Oregon or western Washington.

Spokane, Washington is a very small town in a very red area of the country. Gonzaga doesn't place particularly well. I know a little about Washington State and Oregon, not as much about the other states you mentioned. I'd definitely make sure I'm alright being in one of these places for the rest of my career. The difference between Seattle and anywhere 50+ miles inland is like the difference between NYC and Buffalo. While you may feel you'd be happy anywhere in the Pacific NW, you may want to look at specific environments and spend a week in each before you make this decision.

Definitely agree with the above. There are some very rural, desolate places in eastern Washington. I think it's easy to have a certain image of Washington in mind before actually visiting there. Would definitely recommend spending a few days in Spokane and some of the smaller cities before committing to Gonzaga (or any school in a smaller city).

JOThompson wrote:Definitely agree with the above. There are some very rural, desolate places in eastern Washington. I think it's easy to have a certain image of Washington in mind before actually visiting there. Would definitely recommend spending a few days in Spokane and some of the smaller cities before committing to Gonzaga (or any school in a smaller city).

Thank you for your advice, I have a lot of family in the tri-cities area of Washington so I know exactly what you mean haha it is very very different from Seattle and Portland. I have visited a fair amount though and do like Spokane, but I agree that Gonzaga just isn't worth it for the money when compared to Arizona. Right now we are definitely leaning towards Arizona and will probably decide after we get all the scholarship info from Utah within the next day or two. Thank you!