Yale full COA Forum

[mocking]

Hello all,

I recently was fortunate enough to receive admission to Yale. As the initial thrill is wearing off a bit, I thought I’d come to you lovely for a bit of advice in picking a school/debt advice because as a recent college grad I feel out of my league.

My parents make quite a bit of money — enough that I anticipate no or little need aid from Yale (though not nearly enough such that cost is no object).

My goals post law school are public interest with an emphasis on criminal law — I believe I’d be totally happy being a state prosecutor or public defender, though dream job would be along the lines of ACLU, DOJ, federal prosecutor, etc. I have 0 desire to go into big law and would prefer if you don’t consider that as an option for the sake of this question.

That said, Yale seems like a great academic fit for me. The COAP seems very extensive, and my reading of it is that it would essentially pay the same if I’m 100k in debt or 400k.

Because of that, my parents have said that if I go to Yale, I should plan to go into debt for the full freight of it. I know this is an extremely large amount of money and the thought of it makes me very nervous (I am generally a risk averse person and I hate the thought of this much debt/seems like it could be life ruining).

So I guess my questions are:

1. How risky is this tentative plan?
2. Is my reading of the COAP correct? Is there any major loophole I should be aware of?
3. Is any school even worth the full COA? I know it’s yale, but close to 400k is hard to swallow.

Thanks in advance for your time and help!

[kinge]

I know it's still fairly early in the cycle for results, but what are your other options right now? If you got into Yale, you are probably competitive for $$$-$$$$ at T6 and lower T14 schools

[mocking]

other results: in at Stanford, Harvard, NYU, Cal, Duke, and Penn. Haven’t heard about money from anywhere. Still waiting on Columbia/Uchicago/UVA.

If I get substantial money somewhere that would also be a huge consideration — I’m just wondering if Yale should even really be on the table or if I should mostly considering it a bargaining chip to use to hopefully get scholarships elsewhere.

[TESTESTTEST]

Yale 3L here--

If you are certain that you have no interest in biglaw, then coming to YLS and using COAP is a great move. COAP is great and provided you are genuinely committed to lower-paying public interest work, YLS will open doors and provide you with a very cost-efficient education. Good luck in your decision making--you will very likely be getting some huge scholarships soon, but I think in the long run, COAP and YLS is hard to beat.

[nealric]

I'd confirm all the details with the school, but I know Yale's program for public interest loan relief is pretty much the gold standard. If you really and truly have zero private practice interest, the loans are more hypothetical than real.

The only thing I might consider is whether a better paid federal job (still in your wheelhouse) might trigger some repayment obligations - you could end up making low six figures after 5 years or so in the federal public defender's office (for example).

[The Lsat Airbender]

Full-ride at NYU or Michigan or something would be preferable IMO but Yale is a great choice for PI and it's hard to regret going.

[QContinuum]

First, OP, congrats on your tremendous success! You should rightly be very proud of yourself for all of the hard work that's brougth you to this point.

Now, to your question. It's a tough call. On the one hand, as others have pointed out, Yale's the gold standard for public interest, especially tough-to-get positions like impact litigation at the ACLU/EFF/etc., DoJ Honors, etc. Yale's also, far and away, the gold standard for federal clerkships, which are effectively a prerequisite for many prestigious PI positions. And finally, COAP's the gold standard in law school loan repayment assistance programs. Unlike most other law school LRAPs (notably including Harvard's LIPP), COAP doesn't even require public interest per se. You could graduate YLS, decide to go into clowning, make $50k per year as a clown-for-profit, and qualify for COAP. COAP's as good as it gets, and if, as you say, you're 200% committed to not doing BigLaw, then there's very little risk in assuming the debt, as scary as it may seem.

(Notably, you can/should write Stanford and Harvard off. There's no reason to choose either over Yale. Neither Stanford nor Harvard offer merit aid; neither places as strongly as Yale into PI positions or federal clerkships; and Yale's COAP beats Harvard's LIPP and Stanford's LRAP in terms of flexibility by a country mile.)

On the other hand, debt's still debt. If you marry a high-earning spouse sometime in the next 13 years, that could get you kicked out of COAP. Having that much debt, even with COAP, could make it challenging to get a mortgage and buy a house. You might even decide to join the BigLaw train, either right out of law school or at some point in the decade after graduating. (Normally the BigLaw train comes once and done, but it's possible to slide back in from the kinds of PI positions Yalies get.) And, you aren't laser-focused on prestige. You don't sound like the kind of law student who'd feel wrecked if they had to clerk on EDNY instead of SDNY, or the 10th Circuit instead of the D.C. Circuit.

Taking all this together, this is what I'd do if I were in your shoes. I'd wait for scholarship offers to come in. I'd presume I'd attend Yale, unless I received a full-ride from Chicago or NYU RTK. If I got NYU RTK (note, not NYU Vandy), I'd choose NYU. Otherwise, I'd choose between Chicago and Yale. Again, it would be perfectly defensible, and a great idea, to choose Yale regardless. But I think NYU RTK comes close enough to offering what Yale offers, without the debt load, that I'd take NYU RTK over Yale given your stated goals.

(The rest of the T13, while terrific schools, are, in my view, sufficiently weaker compared to Yale, especially for PI placement, that it wouldn't make sense to choose them. Michigan, for example, has historical PI strength, but I don't know that I'd ever recommend Michigan over a full ride at Chicago, NYU RTK or sticker at Yale. UVA punches above its weight in clerkship placement, but I still wouldn't recommend it over Chicago/NYU RTK/Yale. Columbia's a phenomenal school but its primary strength is corporate law, not public interest, and it punches under its weight in clerkship placement. Etc.)

[nealric]

On the other hand, debt's still debt. If you marry a high-earning spouse sometime in the next 13 years, that could get you kicked out of COAP.

I'm not sure if that's true. I thought one of the amazing features of COAP was that it didn't consider spousal income, but I could be wrong. It's worth confirming.

[QContinuum]

On the other hand, debt's still debt. If you marry a high-earning spouse sometime in the next 13 years, that could get you kicked out of COAP.

I'm not sure if that's true. I thought one of the amazing features of COAP was that it didn't consider spousal income, but I could be wrong. It's worth confirming.

Nope, spousal income is considered and affects COAP payments. See https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/file ... iption.pdf

COAP's main amazing feature, which should not be undersold, is its lack of qualifying employment restrictions. No other LRAP I know of - none - apply to "all jobs in all sectors", including nonlegal jobs and jobs in the private sector, as COAP does.

[Necho2]

Damn I didn't realize COAP factors in spousal income. That, coupled with snagging any FedGov jobs that might tip you into the six figures fairly quickly, might be worth considering the Ruby at UChicago if you get it. Quite literally zero debt (20k stipend plus 5k each summer is plenty for living in Hyde Park debt-free). YLS definitely places substantially better, but you're hedging a ton of downside risk by not having any debt.

[mocking]

Damn I didn't realize COAP factors in spousal income. That, coupled with snagging any FedGov jobs that might tip you into the six figures fairly quickly, might be worth considering the Ruby at UChicago if you get it. Quite literally zero debt (20k stipend plus 5k each summer is plenty for living in Hyde Park debt-free). YLS definitely places substantially better, but you're hedging a ton of downside risk by not having any debt.

Would definitely highly consider the Ruby if offered, though, frankly, am quite nervous about the culture of UChicago (intensity, big law focus, and emphasis of “intellectualism all don’t appeal to me at all) and am nervous about how that would impact my quality of life/ability to do well in law school. Unfortunately I won’t be able to visit any schools before enrolling (living abroad)

[The Lsat Airbender]

UChicago isn't that different. The main difference in QoL is that you have meaningful grades, especially 1L. That's an important consideration but not worth $300k IMO.

[QContinuum]

Would definitely highly consider the Ruby if offered, though, frankly, am quite nervous about the culture of UChicago (intensity, big law focus, and emphasis of “intellectualism all don’t appeal to me at all) and am nervous about how that would impact my quality of life/ability to do well in law school. Unfortunately I won’t be able to visit any schools before enrolling (living abroad)

I wouldn't be too worried about 'culture'. Yes, Chicago has meaningful grades, but a median Chicago 1L still has plenty of terrific, competitive PI options. And the flip side of YLS not having meaningful grades is, professorial relationships become all the more important. So, I wouldn't count on YLS being any less "intense" than Chicago. Also, YLS is probably the single most "intellectual" law school in the country. All of the T13 are pretty "intellectual", frankly; it's the T2 and below (or at least T1 and below) law schools that are more focused on practical skills and the black-letter law. In the T6, probably the law school that's the least focused on abstract, fancy-pantsy legal theory etc. is Columbia, and even Columbia has more than its share of abstract theory-focused professors.

I also wanted to take this opportunity to flag up NYU RTK again. NYU's probably the law school that's most like Yale, culturally and in terms of PI focus. While NYU as a whole is still weaker than Chicago (let alone Yale), NYU RTK comes close to closing the gap for PI-minded students. RTK isn't merely a scholarship program, it offers specific mentoring and networking opportunities to participants.

[mocking]

Would definitely highly consider the Ruby if offered, though, frankly, am quite nervous about the culture of UChicago (intensity, big law focus, and emphasis of “intellectualism all don’t appeal to me at all) and am nervous about how that would impact my quality of life/ability to do well in law school. Unfortunately I won’t be able to visit any schools before enrolling (living abroad)

I wouldn't be too worried about 'culture'. Yes, Chicago has meaningful grades, but a median Chicago 1L still has plenty of terrific, competitive PI options. And the flip side of YLS not having meaningful grades is, professorial relationships become all the more important. So, I wouldn't count on YLS being any less "intense" than Chicago. Also, YLS is probably the single most "intellectual" law school in the country. All of the T13 are pretty "intellectual", frankly; it's the T2 and below (or at least T1 and below) law schools that are more focused on practical skills and the black-letter law. In the T6, probably the law school that's the least focused on abstract, fancy-pantsy legal theory etc. is Columbia, and even Columbia has more than its share of abstract theory-focused professors.

I also wanted to take this opportunity to flag up NYU RTK again. NYU's probably the law school that's most like Yale, culturally and in terms of PI focus. While NYU as a whole is still weaker than Chicago (let alone Yale), NYU RTK comes close to closing the gap for PI-minded students. RTK isn't merely a scholarship program, it offers specific mentoring and networking opportunities to participants.

yes the whole not having grades thing would be SO nice and agree I have probably been focusing so much on the differences between schools I’m discounting how similar they are.

As for NYU RTK, I definitely applied & that is probably my top choice at the moment - so fingers crossed that pans out!

[QContinuum]

yes the whole not having grades thing would be SO nice and agree I have probably been focusing so much on the differences between schools I’m discounting how similar they are.

As for NYU RTK, I definitely applied & that is probably my top choice at the moment - so fingers crossed that pans out!

Sounds like you've done your research very well - sounds like a terrific plan. Best wishes! Would love to hear where you end up, if you'd be willing to update us. And of course, in the meantime don't hesitate to come back here if you have any further questions. We have plenty of folks here from each of the schools you're considering, so should be able to answer any questions you have.

(On that note, you can/should also feel free to reach out to the schools' admissions offices and request to talk to current students. Schools are usually pretty good about fulfilling these requests. Yes, there's a selection effect - they won't put you in touch with a disgruntled student who hates the school - but overall, folks are still going to be honest and they really have no motive to sugercoat things.)

[mocking]

[/url]

yes the whole not having grades thing would be SO nice and agree I have probably been focusing so much on the differences between schools I’m discounting how similar they are.

As for NYU RTK, I definitely applied & that is probably my top choice at the moment - so fingers crossed that pans out!

Sounds like you've done your research very well - sounds like a terrific plan. Best wishes! Would love to hear where you end up, if you'd be willing to update us. And of course, in the meantime don't hesitate to come back here if you have any further questions. We have plenty of folks here from each of the schools you're considering, so should be able to answer any questions you have.

(On that note, you can/should also feel free to reach out to the schools' admissions offices and request to talk to current students. Schools are usually pretty good about fulfilling these requests. Yes, there's a selection effect - they won't put you in touch with a disgruntled student who hates the school - but overall, folks are still going to be honest and they really have no motive to sugercoat things.)

Thank you — I realize that I probably should have saved this discussion until I had all my results, but even getting some has for me ANTSY lol.

Appreciate the advice and definitely will be back for more!

[mocking]

Posting again with an update! Received a Ruby at Chicago, so now decision is down to Chicago debt free or Yale full debt w/ plan for COAP.

Leaning towards Chicago, because I think it makes sense for all the practical reasons & seems like having a Ruby should help with mentorship/etc, but can’t help thinking I’d be happier at Yale/nervous that Chicago doesn’t really have a public interest culture (which would probably negatively impact my student experience & mean probably less alums in my field/less career advising etc.

Let me know your thoughts! Thanks!

[LBJ's Hair]

Posting again with an update! Received a Ruby at Chicago, so now decision is down to Chicago debt free or Yale full debt w/ plan for COAP.

Leaning towards Chicago, because I think it makes sense for all the practical reasons & seems like having a Ruby should help with mentorship/etc, but can’t help thinking I’d be happier at Yale/nervous that Chicago doesn’t really have a public interest culture (which would probably negatively impact my student experience & mean probably less alums in my field/less career advising etc.

Let me know your thoughts! Thanks!

Yale, and it's frankly not close.

If you go to Yale, you will not look back in 10 years and think "I wish I could trade this for some money and a Chicago diploma."

There is a very, very real possibility that you look back three years from now, at Chicago, and think "my grades aren't great so I can't clerk anywhere outside of the midwest, my classmates are obsessing over stupid law firms, this Ruby mentorship thing is a joke, and I'm tired of grinding for exams. Why didn't I just go to Yale fucking Law School??? I wouldn't have any of these problems and I'd actually like, enjoy law school.

(I wouldn't say this about Harvard BTW. This is a Yale thing.)

[Delano]

Posting again with an update! Received a Ruby at Chicago, so now decision is down to Chicago debt free or Yale full debt w/ plan for COAP.

Leaning towards Chicago, because I think it makes sense for all the practical reasons & seems like having a Ruby should help with mentorship/etc, but can’t help thinking I’d be happier at Yale/nervous that Chicago doesn’t really have a public interest culture (which would probably negatively impact my student experience & mean probably less alums in my field/less career advising etc.

Let me know your thoughts! Thanks!

Ruby 100%

Yale's COAP is great but an enormous debt level is going to affect your life in at least two major ways: One, it's going to affect on your personal life - your credit scores, ability to buy a house, ability to respond to major unanticipated life changes, etc. This is ten years of your life after graduation. That's a lot of debt for a long time. I can't speak to the specifics of what this looks like, but do research and speak to people who can. (Also, consider COAP in relation to the realities of your career - At HLS, at least, the financial aid people were quite frank that the vast majority of people do not stay in their program for more than a few years, because most people opt to accept jobs that pay above the eligibility level. This was surprising to me, at least.)

Second- No debt is a huge psychological relief. It enables you to take career risks you otherwise wouldn't. It frees up your choice of where you work and what you do. It means you can quit law and live in a cabin in the woods if you so desire.

Chicago is a fantastic, fantastic school. I hesitate to say this, but if you got the Ruby it's statistically probable you'll do at least decently well academically. I would advise against putting too much weight on the "public interest culture" aspect of things, because: 1) It's only three years, 2) IMO, a school's "culture" is kind of a myth. At either school, you'll develop a small-ish social group of people who are (or are not) like-minded. These are the people who you'll interact with the most often and who will affect your student experience the most. 3) How much time are you really going to spend speaking to career services?

(FWIW, I faced a similar choice and chose the no debt option, and it's without a doubt one of the best decisions I ever made.)

[bajablast]

OP, this might be the hardest law school admission to make, congrats on an excellent outcome. Listen to what others have to say (and your gut), but you will have a great future regardless of where you go

[The Lsat Airbender]

OP, this might be the hardest law school admission to make, congrats on an excellent outcome. Listen to what others have to say (and your gut), but you will have a great future regardless of where you go

Agree with this. I respect the other two repliers above but the "100%" "it's not even close" language is absurd.

This is a pretty tough choice between improving OP's worst-case scenario (Chicago has a better fail-case because no debt, although Yale's loan assistance closes some of the gap) and your best-case scenario (Yale because you get to clerk for CADC instead of the 7th Circuit).

[Pennoyer v. Meh]

I'd take Chicago. There is a public interest culture here--just because more people go to firms doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and as was pointed above out you're not actually spending that much time talking about this sort of thing. The faculty at Chicago is great, and the Ruby will let you interact with them more than you otherwise would (quite a few of them have spent time in public service, too).

Not having to worry about debt is a huge thing, and gives you a cushion in case something goes wrong, academically or professionally or in the larger economic world. As for the "worrying about exams", I wouldn't stress too much about that. If you got a Ruby, you're likely in a position to succeed anyway. So think it over, it's not a slam dunk, but I'd take debt-free option.

[LBJ's Hair]

OP, this might be the hardest law school admission to make, congrats on an excellent outcome. Listen to what others have to say (and your gut), but you will have a great future regardless of where you go

Agree with this. I respect the other two repliers above but the "100%" "it's not even close" language is absurd.

This is a pretty tough choice between improving OP's worst-case scenario (Chicago has a better fail-case because no debt, although Yale's loan assistance closes some of the gap) and your best-case scenario (Yale because you get to clerk for CADC instead of the 7th Circuit).

See, to me, the worst case scenario isn't OP graduating unemployed with no job prospects. (Although I'd still rather be the worst student in my class at YLS than the worst student my class at Chicago with the Ruby. The former could still go to a V10, latter most definitely isn't.) It's that OP can't pursue his/her dream of doing something other than working at [big law firm]. There's a much higher risk of that at Chicago than there is at YLS.

At YLS, if OP wants AUSA, they just need to not get straight Ps - it's not going to be hard getting a good district court clerkship. If OP wants ACLU - great, the YLS brand carries huge weight in the impact lit space, and OP will have time to do clinics and schmooze.

This just isn't true at Chicago - the median Chicago student is going to a market-paying law firm. S/he will not do impact lit, or become an AUSA in a competitive district, or w/e.

So, personally, I'd look at YLS as the low risk move. You're maximizing your chances of actually doing criminal law or impact lit or w/e 3-5 years from now. The high risk move, to me, is betting that you can still do it at Chicago, and be compensated for that risk in $$$. And with YLS's super generous financial aid program, like... is the financial burden really that different?

If OP's goal was to go to like, Skadden, and moving in-house ASAP, this would be less obvious to me. Pretty easy to do that at either school, so may as well pick up a ton of cash to do it at Chicago. But that's expressly *not* OP's goal.

[LBJ's Hair]

^Also just to be clear, these are like, two of the best-possible options for a 0L. I have pretty strong views on which is "better" but like, the Ruby is still awesome.

[The Lsat Airbender]

See, to me, the worst case scenario isn't OP graduating unemployed with no job prospects. (Although I'd still rather be the worst student in my class at YLS than the worst student my class at Chicago with the Ruby. The former could still go to a V10, latter most definitely isn't.) It's that OP can't pursue his/her dream of doing something other than working at [big law firm]. There's a much higher risk of that at Chicago than there is at YLS.

My read of the OP is that the biglaw route is immaterial and they'd be happy as a public defender in [American city], although obviously it would be fun/fulfilling to do something more prestigious. That should be perfectly doable from either school and is my baseline for the worst case.

In that scenario, I'd rather not have to deal with COAP -- income over $50k gets clawed back, you have to worry about spousal income if that ever comes up, etc. Plenty of people do manage a free lunch from loan assistance, but they have to distort other life choices to stay eligible for all 10 years. With the Ruby, you never have to wear those manacles in the first place.

(Cards on the table: I lean Yale here, for pretty much the same reasons as you.)