George Washington Law Vs Miami Law Forum

[vccfc]

Hello Everybody,

I am currently struggling to decide what to do for the next three years.

I have received an admissions offer to both GW and Miami law school. However, GW did not offer me any scholarship money (60k a year) and Maimi offered me an 80% scholarship on tuition. What should I do? I understand that GW is a much better school with a better reputation. Also, they have a top 5 international law program that intrigues me. However, Miami offered me a substantial amount of scholarship money.

Also, I feel lucky to get into GW with a 161 LSAT and a 3.9 GPA.

Thank you all!

[cavalier1138]

What are your career goals, and where do you want to work?

[raven1231]

What are your goals? Where do you want to practice? What do you want to do? We need a lot more information to be able to give you any meaningful advice. That aside with a 3.9gpa you should absolutely retake the LSAT. A few more points could make all the difference.

[vccfc]

What are your goals? Where do you want to practice? What do you want to do? We need a lot more information to be able to give you any meaningful advice. That aside with a 3.9gpa you should absolutely retake the LSAT. A few more points could make all the difference.

My goal is basically to be a successful international lawyer working in a vibrant city. On the other hand, my goal is also to be close to my family in Maimi. I also have many connections in Miami. DC would be a totally new adventure for me without knowing the area or anyone living in the area.
Also, would retaking the LSAT help with scholarship opportunity if I am already admitted to the school?

[cavalier1138]

What are your goals? Where do you want to practice? What do you want to do? We need a lot more information to be able to give you any meaningful advice. That aside with a 3.9gpa you should absolutely retake the LSAT. A few more points could make all the difference.

My goal is basically to be a successful international lawyer working in a vibrant city. On the other hand, my goal is also to be close to my family in Maimi. I also have many connections in Miami. DC would be a totally new adventure for me without knowing the area or anyone living in the area.
Also, would retaking the LSAT help with scholarship opportunity if I am already admitted to the school?

What is an "international lawyer?" What kinds of matters do you envision yourself working on, and how much do you want to earn out of school?

[vccfc]

What are your goals? Where do you want to practice? What do you want to do? We need a lot more information to be able to give you any meaningful advice. That aside with a 3.9gpa you should absolutely retake the LSAT. A few more points could make all the difference.

My goal is basically to be a successful international lawyer working in a vibrant city. On the other hand, my goal is also to be close to my family in Maimi. I also have many connections in Miami. DC would be a totally new adventure for me without knowing the area or anyone living in the area.
Also, would retaking the LSAT help with scholarship opportunity if I am already admitted to the school?

What is an "international lawyer?" What kinds of matters do you envision yourself working on, and how much do you want to earn out of school?

Focus on international disputes, specifically between Israel and America. I would like to earn a good amount, just like most people going into law school.

[cavalier1138]

I think you need to do a little research into the legal field, because this:

international disputes, specifically between Israel and America

is not really an area of legal practice.

But can you also be more specific about what you consider "a good amount?" Legal salaries are bimodal, so this is fairly important. In other words, if you aren't making $190k right out of school, you're making roughly $45-60k. Do you consider the latter to be "a good amount?"

[vccfc]

I think you need to do a little research into the legal field, because this:

international disputes, specifically between Israel and America

is not really an area of legal practice.

But can you also be more specific about what you consider "a good amount?" Legal salaries are bimodal, so this is fairly important. In other words, if you aren't making $190k right out of school, you're making roughly $45-60k. Do you consider the latter to be "a good amount?"

I would love to make 190k. That would be ideal.
Now going back to my original question. Any advice?

[Libya]

For your goals I would not choose either. GW is absolutely unjustifiable at that price. Miami is justifiable if you are OK working at a small firm in Miami, which I don’t believe handle international disputes, but I admit I don’t really know. Your most likely outcome out of Miami will be a small firm in town or local gov, making 45-60K. As to your goals: If you want to do international arbitration I would recommend retaking and only considering the T13. If you want to do International human rights stuff (if that’s what disputes w/ israel means) I would not go anywhere outside of the T6, and would strongly suggest YSH.

[Libya]

I think you need to do a little research into the legal field, because this:

international disputes, specifically between Israel and America

is not really an area of legal practice.

But can you also be more specific about what you consider "a good amount?" Legal salaries are bimodal, so this is fairly important. In other words, if you aren't making $190k right out of school, you're making roughly $45-60k. Do you consider the latter to be "a good amount?"

I would love to make 190k. That would be ideal.
Now going back to my original question. Any advice?

FYI latter refers to the later thing in a sequence. Might want to tighten up the former/latter distinction before law school

[JOThompson]

What is the GPA/ranking requirement on Miami?

True international law jobs are almost mythical. I'm not sure that GW is going to get you one of those, but you'd have a better chance than with Miami.

For your goals, I'd probably go to GWU but it's a risk with the higher debt. However, you'll likely have far more options if you retake and apply later. The pedigree of the school you go to can open/close many doors over the course of a career (especially the first few years), and the extra year delay in matriculating is well worth it if you can add a couple points to your score.

[cavalier1138]

Pretty much everything Libya said regarding the relative benefits/drawbacks of each school is correct.

The reason I wasn't directly answering your first question is that your subsequent answers seem to show that you shouldn't be attending law school this year at all. You've identified an area of legal practice that doesn't really exist as a career goal. To the extent that a broader practice area related to what you were referring to exists, it isn't going to be accessible from Miami, and it's going to be an extremely unlikely outcome from GW (and that's being charitable). So my advice would be to spend some time researching the legal profession before committing three years of your life and a significant amount of money to law school.

[nealric]

For your goals I would not choose either. GW is absolutely unjustifiable at that price. Miami is justifiable if you are OK working at a small firm in Miami, which I don’t believe handle international disputes, but I admit I don’t really know. Your most likely outcome out of Miami will be a small firm in town or local gov, making 45-60K. As to your goals: If you want to do international arbitration I would recommend retaking and only considering the T13. If you want to do International human rights stuff (if that’s what disputes w/ israel means) I would not go anywhere outside of the T6, and would strongly suggest YSH.

Yup. I'd bump that a bit more and say T6 for international arbitration. It's a niche that a lot of law students want and is more competitive than just getting any random biglaw gig.

Hate to be a dose of reality, but either of those schools would be a pretty big risk if you really are set on biglaw and making $190k. It's not really clear what you mean by "disputes with Israel," but I suggest you do a bit more research on the realities of legal practice before pulling the trigger on law school.

[QContinuum]

For your goals I would not choose either. GW is absolutely unjustifiable at that price. Miami is justifiable if you are OK working at a small firm in Miami, which I don’t believe handle international disputes, but I admit I don’t really know. Your most likely outcome out of Miami will be a small firm in town or local gov, making 45-60K. As to your goals: If you want to do international arbitration I would recommend retaking and only considering the T13. If you want to do International human rights stuff (if that’s what disputes w/ israel means) I would not go anywhere outside of the T6, and would strongly suggest YSH.

I also cosign this excellent advice. What's more, with OP's 3.9 GPA (assuming that's their LSAC GPA), the T6 (and certainly T7-T13) is entirely within reach, given the right LSAT, which is entirely achievable with sufficient/proper preparation. Attending a T6, or at least a T13, would give OP a solid shot at landing an international arbitration BigLaw job starting at $190k. Neither Miami or GWU would do that, and OP shouldn't attend either school.

I'll also add just to be extra-clear: For international human rights stuff, if that's what OP wants to do, they should be aware these jobs, like all public interest positions, do not pay anywhere close to $190k. Going in expecting $45-60k starting would be more realistic, maybe slowly progressing up to the high five figures over the years, and I imagine you wouldn't reach $100k (let alone $190k) unless you became very well-known years/decades down the line. These positions are extremely sought after and require Yale, Stanford, Harvard, NYU RTK (in that order) for a realistic shot, but they don't pay well and even the median Yalie isn't going to be able to practice international human rights law.

[vccfc]

For your goals I would not choose either. GW is absolutely unjustifiable at that price. Miami is justifiable if you are OK working at a small firm in Miami, which I don’t believe handle international disputes, but I admit I don’t really know. Your most likely outcome out of Miami will be a small firm in town or local gov, making 45-60K. As to your goals: If you want to do international arbitration I would recommend retaking and only considering the T13. If you want to do International human rights stuff (if that’s what disputes w/ israel means) I would not go anywhere outside of the T6, and would strongly suggest YSH.

Yup. I'd bump that a bit more and say T6 for international arbitration. It's a niche that a lot of law students want and is more competitive than just getting any random biglaw gig.

Hate to be a dose of reality, but either of those schools would be a pretty big risk if you really are set on biglaw and making $190k. It's not really clear what you mean by "disputes with Israel," but I suggest you do a bit more research on the realities of legal practice before pulling the trigger on law school.

Thank you for your reply and for being honest! I will do some research. If you were in my position and wanted to get a position in big law, what would you do?

[raven1231]

For your goals I would not choose either. GW is absolutely unjustifiable at that price. Miami is justifiable if you are OK working at a small firm in Miami, which I don’t believe handle international disputes, but I admit I don’t really know. Your most likely outcome out of Miami will be a small firm in town or local gov, making 45-60K. As to your goals: If you want to do international arbitration I would recommend retaking and only considering the T13. If you want to do International human rights stuff (if that’s what disputes w/ israel means) I would not go anywhere outside of the T6, and would strongly suggest YSH.

Yup. I'd bump that a bit more and say T6 for international arbitration. It's a niche that a lot of law students want and is more competitive than just getting any random biglaw gig.

Hate to be a dose of reality, but either of those schools would be a pretty big risk if you really are set on biglaw and making $190k. It's not really clear what you mean by "disputes with Israel," but I suggest you do a bit more research on the realities of legal practice before pulling the trigger on law school.

Thank you for your reply and for being honest! I will do some research. If you were in my position and wanted to get a position in big law, what would you do?

Retake the LSAT and apply to the t13 and go from there.

[Libya]

For your goals I would not choose either. GW is absolutely unjustifiable at that price. Miami is justifiable if you are OK working at a small firm in Miami, which I don’t believe handle international disputes, but I admit I don’t really know. Your most likely outcome out of Miami will be a small firm in town or local gov, making 45-60K. As to your goals: If you want to do international arbitration I would recommend retaking and only considering the T13. If you want to do International human rights stuff (if that’s what disputes w/ israel means) I would not go anywhere outside of the T6, and would strongly suggest YSH.

Yup. I'd bump that a bit more and say T6 for international arbitration. It's a niche that a lot of law students want and is more competitive than just getting any random biglaw gig.

Hate to be a dose of reality, but either of those schools would be a pretty big risk if you really are set on biglaw and making $190k. It's not really clear what you mean by "disputes with Israel," but I suggest you do a bit more research on the realities of legal practice before pulling the trigger on law school.

Thank you for your reply and for being honest! I will do some research. If you were in my position and wanted to get a position in big law, what would you do?

I cannot stress enough how disparate your chances will be for biglaw at the T13/14 versus the schools you are currently considering (particularly Miami). You would also have a good chance from some of the T20 (Vandy, UT, UCLA, WUSTL) however (1) with these schools it’s more of 50/50 gamble than T13/14 where it’s more likely to get biglaw than not, (2) these schools seem to be the ones that significantly suffer in biglaw placement when recessions hit, (3) these schools have a regional reach where as the top 14 have a national reach in placement; so I would only attend these on significant scholarship, if you want to practice in their respective region, and if you wouldn’t be crushed ending up in a smaller firm or local/state government if things didn’t shake out at OCI. TLDR: Retake and gain like 6-7 points, get into a T14, and you will be in a much better position for biglaw

[nealric]

For your goals I would not choose either. GW is absolutely unjustifiable at that price. Miami is justifiable if you are OK working at a small firm in Miami, which I don’t believe handle international disputes, but I admit I don’t really know. Your most likely outcome out of Miami will be a small firm in town or local gov, making 45-60K. As to your goals: If you want to do international arbitration I would recommend retaking and only considering the T13. If you want to do International human rights stuff (if that’s what disputes w/ israel means) I would not go anywhere outside of the T6, and would strongly suggest YSH.

I also cosign this excellent advice. What's more, with OP's 3.9 GPA (assuming that's their LSAC GPA), the T6 (and certainly T7-T13) is entirely within reach, given the right LSAT, which is entirely achievable with sufficient/proper preparation. Attending a T6, or at least a T13, would give OP a solid shot at landing an international arbitration BigLaw job starting at $190k. Neither Miami or GWU would do that, and OP shouldn't attend either school.

I'll also add just to be extra-clear: For international human rights stuff, if that's what OP wants to do, they should be aware these jobs, like all public interest positions, do not pay anywhere close to $190k. Going in expecting $45-60k starting would be more realistic, maybe slowly progressing up to the high five figures over the years, and I imagine you wouldn't reach $100k (let alone $190k) unless you became very well-known years/decades down the line. These positions are extremely sought after and require Yale, Stanford, Harvard, NYU RTK (in that order) for a realistic shot, but they don't pay well and even the median Yalie isn't going to be able to practice international human rights law.

I'd say at that level, it's more about demonstrated commitment than grades (besides, who knows what median at Yale even means with their grading system). Sure, the ACLU probably wants folks with COA clerkships, but most PI organizations would take a Yalie without particular academic distinction but with deep background in the field over the Sears prize winner at Harvard with no history of public interest work.

I'd also say that most people who say they want to do "international human rights law" don't have a great grasp of what that involves on a day to day basis. If your last name is not "Clooney", what you are actually doing on a day to day basis probably won't be terribly sexy.

[QContinuum]

I'd say at that level, it's more about demonstrated commitment than grades (besides, who knows what median at Yale even means with their grading system). Sure, the ACLU probably wants folks with COA clerkships, but most PI organizations would take a Yalie without particular academic distinction but with deep background in the field over the Sears prize winner at Harvard with no history of public interest work.

I agree with this excellent clarification. By "median Yalie" I really intended to say the "typical Yalie", and convey that a "run-of-the-mill" YLS student with no particularly relevant pre-law background/skills won't be landing international human rights legal work. But I appreciate that this may have been misleading given how much other jobs are grades-sensitive.

I'd also say that most people who say they want to do "international human rights law" don't have a great grasp of what that involves on a day to day basis. If your last name is not "Clooney", what you are actually doing on a day to day basis probably won't be terribly sexy.

Another excellent clarification, and I'd stretch this to cover international arbitration and other international BigLaw work as well. It's not "sexy" just because it's international. It can be especially brutal due to time zone differences.

[trebekismyhero]

I'd also say that most people who say they want to do "international human rights law" don't have a great grasp of what that involves on a day to day basis. If your last name is not "Clooney", what you are actually doing on a day to day basis probably won't be terribly sexy.

Another excellent clarification, and I'd stretch this to cover international arbitration and other international BigLaw work as well. It's not "sexy" just because it's international. It can be especially brutal due to time zone differences.

I can't speak to international human rights or arbitration, but I actually did a few deals where a client was buying an Israeli entity and did a whole bunch of international deals. They were without a doubt the worst deals because of time zones and reliance on local counsel to get things right. No matter what OP wants to do, with a 3.9 GPA, you have to retake the LSAT. With that GPA, you should not go to law school with anything less than a full ride to a T20 school or scholarship to a t14.

[nealric]

I'd also say that most people who say they want to do "international human rights law" don't have a great grasp of what that involves on a day to day basis. If your last name is not "Clooney", what you are actually doing on a day to day basis probably won't be terribly sexy.

Another excellent clarification, and I'd stretch this to cover international arbitration and other international BigLaw work as well. It's not "sexy" just because it's international. It can be especially brutal due to time zone differences.

I can't speak to international human rights or arbitration, but I actually did a few deals where a client was buying an Israeli entity and did a whole bunch of international deals. They were without a doubt the worst deals because of time zones and reliance on local counsel to get things right. No matter what OP wants to do, with a 3.9 GPA, you have to retake the LSAT. With that GPA, you should not go to law school with anything less than a full ride to a T20 school or scholarship to a t14.

I've done a decent number of deals involving Europe and West Africa, which isn't too bad because you have overlapping business hours all morning (U.S. time). Asia and Australia are awful because they can be a full 12 hours off U.S. time so there are no overlapping regular business hours - fortunately I've only had a small handful of deals where I've had to talk to folks in that part of the world. Israel would be a bit worse than Europe but better than Asia I imagine. Since I left law firm life, I've actually traveled as part of deals. That part may sound fun, but getting off a flight to Europe with 2 hours of sleep (if you are lucky) and then spending all day hashing out deal language is certainly not.

[FND]

No matter what OP wants to do, with a 3.9 GPA, you have to retake the LSAT. With that GPA, you should not go to law school with anything less than a full ride to a T20 school or scholarship to a t14.

Edit: if OP wants to stay in Florida, it's acceptable to go to UF, Florida State, or UMiami on a full ride, but not a T20

[trebekismyhero]

No matter what OP wants to do, with a 3.9 GPA, you have to retake the LSAT. With that GPA, you should not go to law school with anything less than a full ride to a T20 school or scholarship to a t14.

Edit: if OP wants to stay in Florida, it's acceptable to go to UF, Florida State, or UMiami on a full ride, but not a T20

Good point