Advice Please! UAZ vs Emory Forum

[lizlaw8]

Hi! So...I'm a soon to be 1L. I applied very late in the cycle, was waitlisted at multiple schools, and am now making life decisions in a very short time frame (learn from my mistakes, hopeful law students: APPLY EARLY)...anyways, I had been set on the University of Arizona for a while. They offered me a scholarship covering half of tuition. I have been drawn to the West for some time (currently in PA. Born in CA but moved as an infant. Parents actually met & married in AZ. Have visited a few times and was always struck by the beauty of the region) and can easily imagine a future and a career there. I'm mostly interested in Intellectual Property law, but very open to any opportunities that arise as I'm making connections and exposed to new areas of practice.

Enter Emory University, offering me a seat 4 days before Orientation begins (and 20,000/year!) I chose to apply because Emory's program, personal statement prompt, all of the information on their site, and everything I read about it aligned perfectly with my reasons for attending law school. I didn't even really expect to get in. I could definitely make life in Atlanta work for law school, but I don't really want to be in Georgia, NY or FL long term, and those make up the vast majority of employment placement. Not to say that there aren't international and national opportunities, but....

There's also the fact that even with the offered money, I would still be taking on twice as much debt to attend Emory.

I've pretty much decided to stick with AZ, between the prospect of a lot less debt and landing a job where I actually want to be. I'm not interested in big law. The West fits my identity a lot better than the South, or NYC. But I can't believe I'm about to turn down Emory Law, and if anyone has a strong case for the opposite decision, I am open. Thank you so much in advance!

[cavalier1138]

I applied very late in the cycle, was waitlisted at multiple schools, and am now making life decisions in a very short time frame (learn from my mistakes, hopeful law students: APPLY EARLY)

I don't understand how you were able to type this sentence and not understand that it's equally applicable to you.

What are your current numbers? What's your total cost of attendance at Arizona? Why must you attend law school right this very moment?

[nixy]

Even without the above info - of the 2, stick with U of A. Emory is going to help place you in Atlanta/Georgia/the south. If you don’t want to be there, the little bit fancier name isn’t going to do anything. It’s not worth paying more for. If you want to be in AZ, U of A is great.

(That said, intellectual property law is usually done in biglaw, and I’m not sure there’s lots of it in AZ, so make sure you’re being realistic about job opportunities.)

[lizlaw8]

I applied very late in the cycle, was waitlisted at multiple schools, and am now making life decisions in a very short time frame (learn from my mistakes, hopeful law students: APPLY EARLY)

I don't understand how you were able to type this sentence and not understand that it's equally applicable to you.

What are your current numbers? What's your total cost of attendance at Arizona? Why must you attend law school right this very moment?

3.8/158. I know, I know: If I didn't get at least a 165 I should have retaken. I wasn't closed off to the possibility of waiting another year and studying my butt off, but I'm happy with how things turned out, very happy never to have to look at another logic game, and eager to begin my career after a gap year. I'm also unable to live with my parents any longer and want out of PA.

Total COA will be 47,500.

Thank you both for your responses! I will stick with U of A. A T40 legal education in a state I love, for the total price of a single year at some law schools, is a pretty sweet deal if you ask me!

[QContinuum]

I don't understand how you were able to type this sentence and not understand that it's equally applicable to you.

What are your current numbers? What's your total cost of attendance at Arizona? Why must you attend law school right this very moment?

3.8/158. I know, I know: If I didn't get at least a 165 I should have retaken. I wasn't closed off to the possibility of waiting another year and studying my butt off, but I'm happy with how things turned out, very happy never to have to look at another logic game, and eager to begin my career after a gap year. I'm also unable to live with my parents any longer and want out of PA.

Total COA will be 47,500.

Thank you both for your responses! I will stick with U of A. A T40 legal education in a state I love, for the total price of a single year at some law schools, is a pretty sweet deal if you ask me!

I echo cav's strong note of caution here. Law schools outside the T20 place locally. You should expect to practice for the rest of your career in Arizona if you attend U of A. Are you totally committed to spending the next 3-4 decades (at least) in Arizona? You "have been drawn to the West," but you've only ever actually lived in the Northeast, in Pennsylvania, which is about as different from AZ as you can get. That your parents met and married in AZ decades ago is no guarantee you'd be happy living there now. Are you actually sure that you'd be happy living in the desert? Are you prepared for months of temperatures exceeding 110 degrees? AZ isn't a bad state at all but it's not for everyone, and I just worry you're rushing into this.

cav is also correct that there is little to no "IP" law in AZ. If your goal is IP, U of A is a poor choice for you. IP law is done primarily in NY, MA and CA, with little pockets in Atlanta and Houston. U of A does not place well in any of those markets.

I understand you are not able to live with your parents for any longer and want to leave PA but there are many ways of achieving both of those things without plunging full steam into law school. You should not let your desire to move out/leave PA drive you to matriculate at U of A.

[notinbiglaw]

I pulled up employment reports. You can find them easily on Google.

ASU places well in Arizona but seems to have virtually no presence outside of Arizona and most people ending up at small midsized firms.

Emory for whatever reason seems to be more national in terms of placements with about 10% going to NY and a lot more, like 20-30% of the class, going to firms with 200+ people. It’s still mostly regional but not almost 100% exclusively regional like ASU.

Unless you are SURE you WANT to spend rest of your life in AZ, I think you have to pick Emory. Even better, you should delay a year and get in a school that will place you where you want to work (like Fordham in NYC, UCLA/Irvine in CA, both cities are way better for IP work, though of different sorts of IP.)

I know I am responding late. But OP you’re gambling that you will love Arizona long term after visiting the state just a few times. I’d never let a friend do this if he/she told me what you wrote.

[nixy]

A lot of this ^ makes sense, but 1) ASU is a different school from U of Arizona and 2) the OP never said they wanted to work in NYC or CA, so not clear on the advice to go to school that will place them where they want to work. At the moment, they want to work in AZ. (I agree that it’s hard to know they really want that, but they didn’t say they want NYC/CA.)

[notinbiglaw]

That’s even worse then.

UAZ basically same situation as ASU but worse.

OP needs to be somewhere with IP law and/or some national placement power given the fact pattern. Emory fits the bill much better than UAZ does.

[nixy]

Not sure Emory is worth paying more for, though, especially given the OP doesn't sound wed to any one area of law. Emory is absolutely a defensible choice but I'm not sure that it's obviously better, given that the OP claims to want to live in AZ and has said they're not interested in big law. (I don't think in the long term U of A is actually worse than ASU, in Arizona, though I agree ASU's numbers are a little better for 2018.) If people aren't convinced by the OP's desire to be in AZ I"m not sure why they're convinced by their interest in IP law.

[QContinuum]

Not sure Emory is worth paying more for, though, especially given the OP doesn't sound wed to any one area of law. Emory is absolutely a defensible choice but I'm not sure that it's obviously better, given that the OP claims to want to live in AZ and has said they're not interested in big law. (I don't think in the long term U of A is actually worse than ASU, in Arizona, though I agree ASU's numbers are a little better for 2018.) If people aren't convinced by the OP's desire to be in AZ I"m not sure why they're convinced by their interest in IP law.

We (or at least I...) think: 1) No one - including OP - knows whether OP'd be happy in Arizona long-term. 2) No one - including OP - knows whether IP law would actually be a good fit. But, OP's professed interest in IP is more or less irreconcilable with OP's professed desire to practice in AZ. This isn't about OP's future desires. This is about OP's present desires being incompatible with each other. Until OP resolves this issue (either by professing an interest in a different area of law, or attending school outside AZ), OP should not matriculate to law school anywhere. Until this issue is resolved, it's meaningless to consider UAZ vs. Emory because neither can achieve both of OP's professed goals (IP law, and AZ residence).

[nixy]

I mean, that’s fair. Neither is a spectacular option and not going this year is probably the most sensible thing. In that respect Emory isn’t somehow arguably better, and it’s more expensive. So if the OP were to go for one of two not very good choices, go with the cheaper one. (I also tend to see Emory as overpriced and trading on its overall undergrad reputation, which may be unfair.)

[Qtc]

I was once in a similar boat. You should wait a year and retake the LSAT. You've got a great GPA. Don't squander it. I didn't study, but you should. I went to my school because I didn't know what else to do, and it was cheap. Given my career goals, my decision was extremely optimistic and naive. You should not do the same. If you wait and retake, you will have more options. You might even make a little money in the meantime.

[QContinuum]

I mean, that’s fair. Neither is a spectacular option and not going this year is probably the most sensible thing. In that respect Emory isn’t somehow arguably better, and it’s more expensive. So if the OP were to go for one of two not very good choices, go with the cheaper one. (I also tend to see Emory as overpriced and trading on its overall undergrad reputation, which may be unfair.)

I pretty much agree. I am not plumping for Emory. I think Emory is the better choice for IP law, and U of A is the better choice for becoming a lawyer in Arizona. Again, though, neither achieves both of OP's professed goals (being an IP lawyer in Arizona, which pretty much doesn't exist). And, indeed, OP's main reason for rushing to matriculate immediately seems to be they're sick and tired of living in their parents' home in PA and want to move out. That's an awful reason to rush into law school.

I was once in a similar boat. You should wait a year and retake the LSAT. You've got a great GPA. Don't squander it. I didn't study, but you should. I went to my school because I didn't know what else to do, and it was cheap. Given my career goals, my decision was extremely optimistic and naive. You should not do the same. If you wait and retake, you will have more options. You might even make a little money in the meantime.

OP, please listen to Qtc above! This is very solid advice from someone who's pretty much been in your shoes.

[LSATWiz.com]

I also think matriculating into law school this late in the cycle puts you at a disadvantage at a time you can't afford to be disadvantaged. Wherever you move, it is a big move, and will be a bit of a culture shock. You don't want to fall 2-3 weeks behind your peers 1L year. Afterwards, it doesn't matter. I agree not liking living in your parents' house is a bad reason. You can find a room in an apartment for under a $1,000, get a menial job, and suck it up for a year. Don't make major life decisions based on a one year inconvenience.

[Lawman1865]

Hi! So...I'm a soon to be 1L. I applied very late in the cycle, was waitlisted at multiple schools, and am now making life decisions in a very short time frame (learn from my mistakes, hopeful law students: APPLY EARLY)...anyways, I had been set on the University of Arizona for a while. They offered me a scholarship covering half of tuition. I have been drawn to the West for some time (currently in PA. Born in CA but moved as an infant. Parents actually met & married in AZ. Have visited a few times and was always struck by the beauty of the region) and can easily imagine a future and a career there. I'm mostly interested in Intellectual Property law, but very open to any opportunities that arise as I'm making connections and exposed to new areas of practice.

Enter Emory University, offering me a seat 4 days before Orientation begins (and 20,000/year!) I chose to apply because Emory's program, personal statement prompt, all of the information on their site, and everything I read about it aligned perfectly with my reasons for attending law school. I didn't even really expect to get in. I could definitely make life in Atlanta work for law school, but I don't really want to be in Georgia, NY or FL long term, and those make up the vast majority of employment placement. Not to say that there aren't international and national opportunities, but....

There's also the fact that even with the offered money, I would still be taking on twice as much debt to attend Emory.

I've pretty much decided to stick with AZ, between the prospect of a lot less debt and landing a job where I actually want to be. I'm not interested in big law. The West fits my identity a lot better than the South, or NYC. But I can't believe I'm about to turn down Emory Law, and if anyone has a strong case for the opposite decision, I am open. Thank you so much in advance!

I'll just go ahead and add to the chorus of voices, I think there are other options that don't equal you going to a law school that likely won't achieve your goals. Just because you have this idea in your head of going to law school and you feel like delaying one year is out of the question, just take a step-back and consider whether it is really so ridiculous or impossible. Don't get stuck on a path simply because you closed yourself off to another one. The fact that you had a gap year and still applied late tells me that you probably were not focused and diligent right from the start, both in terms of your LSAT performance and your overall dedication to attending the best law school for the best price that you can. I don't think the majority of TLS'ers are saying auto-retake at anything below 165, but a 158 is a very improvable score and you've even admitted that you've damaged your options by applying late. A year delay in the grand scheme of life is really not that crazy.

It's not to say that you can't succeed. To step back, you've gotten into a respectable school with some good money, certainly lots of other law students have attended under much worse circumstances. But lots of law students graduate with debt and weak job prospects so you can't just look at others and pat yourself on the back.

The key is about the odds of putting yourself in the best position to succeed. Once you get those law school grades you can't turn around and go somewhere else (exception: transferring, though you really can't plan to be top 15% of your class) and here you have an opportunity to really control your destiny. Not wanting to "look at another logic game" is a REALLY bad reason to settle for a law school that probably won't get you what you want.

To be honest, it seems like you're set on going to school so I suppose I'm posting for the future applicant who is lurking and in a somewhat similar boat. If that is indeed the case, then as long as you're okay with ditching IP law (you'll learn more about what you really want in school), I would suggest definitely settling on Arizona. As said, it's a respectable school and places well regionally. Best of luck with everything.

[notinbiglaw]

Seriously if you’re so dead set on going to school right away, do a master of finance program. Those programs place very well and are basically designed for people who did well in undergrad in a non finance area and/or in a non-US university. You get hired as analyst out of those programs instead of as associate out of MBA.

Even that’s a bad idea. You should just move out to somewhere like Stroudsburg, work menial jobs if you have to, and study for the LSAT in earnest for 8 months.

[Qtc]

I just want to echo the comment about not wanting to look at logic games being a bad reason. I thought the LSAT was a waste of my time. It is not. It’s a test like any other. And in many ways the most important one you’ll takes I’ve gone back and looked at logic games since then. They appear remarkably easy and I wonder now why I didn’t spend at least a few months actually studying for the test like it was any other test. Would I have gotten into Harvard? I don’t know. But I’m pretty sure I would have made into the T-14 without a problem. And that would have made things much easier. If you received a 3.8+ from a respectable school you should have no difficultly scoring much higher.

[QContinuum]

I just want to echo the comment about not wanting to look at logic games being a bad reason. I thought the LSAT was a waste of my time. It is not. It’s a test like any other. And in many ways the most important one you’ll takes I’ve gone back and looked at logic games since then. They appear remarkably easy and I wonder now why I didn’t spend at least a few months actually studying for the test like it was any other test. Would I have gotten into Harvard? I don’t know. But I’m pretty sure I would have made into the T-14 without a problem. And that would have made things much easier. If you received a 3.8+ from a respectable school you should have no difficultly scoring much higher.

Yeah, I can empathize - I despised logic games, absolutely hated prepping for them. Felt like the worst waste of time ever. But look at it this way: Doing well on the LSAT - logic games included - could easily, easily be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in law school tuition alone - and millions of dollars in enhanced earnings (not to mention reduced student loan interest) over the course of your career. It could easily mean the difference between getting your preferred legal job and scrambling to find any job at all after graduating law school. Love it or hate it, there is pretty much no single thing - be it a test, a degree program, an investment, anything! - that has as large a potential return on investment as doing well on the LSAT.

Seriously if you’re so dead set on going to school right away, do a master of finance program. Those programs place very well and are basically designed for people who did well in undergrad in a non finance area and/or in a non-US university. You get hired as analyst out of those programs instead of as associate out of MBA.

Even that’s a bad idea. You should just move out to somewhere like Stroudsburg, work menial jobs if you have to, and study for the LSAT in earnest for 8 months.

I would not recommend the above, because I fear that someone feeling OP's level of "get me outta here NOW!" desperation would end up matriculating into some bottom-barrel b-school with awful job placement. No reputable b-school is going to take anyone who applies now for fall 2019 admission.