American vs. Northeastern vs. Chicago-Kent vs. Wake Forest Forum

[Claire]

166 LSAT + 3.9 UGPA. In at these four schools with full scholarship and I am looking for transferring to T20/T30 after 1L.
American University: good location, feeder school to Harvard and Georgetown
Northeastern: good location
Chicago-Kent: feeder school to UChicago and Northwestern University
Wake Forest: highest-ranked school I am admitted into

I am also waitlisted at Boston College, the University of Washington, WUSTL, and the University of Michigan, but I don't think I could get off the waitlists from the latter two schools based on my LSAT score. I will retake LSAT in June to fight for a chance for Boston College.

Can you please help me decide between these four schools? Thank you very much!!!:)

[The Lsat Airbender]

I am looking for transferring to T20/T30 after 1L.

Terrible idea, as is your notion of "feeder schools". Don't attend any school you wouldn't be happy graduating from.

[cavalier1138]

None of the above. Don't matriculate to a school that you don't want to graduate from.

Retake the LSAT for a score that gets you in at a school you want to attend and that gives you a decent shot at your career goals. Transferring to a better school is not a career goal, and there is no such thing as "feeder school" for transfers.

[Claire]

Thank you very much. My problem is that I am better at getting a high GPA than a good LSAT score. I prepared LSAT for 2 years (1.5 years full-time for LSAT), completed 90 timed PTs (I repeated some), and took the test four times, but I think 166 is probably the highest number I can achieve.

[objctnyrhnr]

Thank you very much. My problem is that I am better at getting a high GPA than a good school at LSAT. I prepared LSAT for 2 years (1.5 years full-time for LSAT), completed 90 timed PTs (I repeated some), and took the test four times, but I think 166 is probably the highest number I can achieve.

Wait hold on. You had a “high gpa” and a 166 and you’re waitlisted at all the schools you named?

Why was your cycle so bad? When did you apply?

[objctnyrhnr]

Thank you very much. My problem is that I am better at getting a high GPA than a good school at LSAT. I prepared LSAT for 2 years (1.5 years full-time for LSAT), completed 90 timed PTs (I repeated some), and took the test four times, but I think 166 is probably the highest number I can achieve.

Wait hold on. You had a “high gpa” and a 166 and you’re waitlisted at all the schools you named?

Why was your cycle so bad? When did you apply?

I just scrolled up and saw you have a 3.9 and 166?!?!?

Apply early next year. Literally it will be the best decision you’ve ever made.

[Claire]

I am waitlisted at U of Michigan, WUSTL, Boston College and the University of Washington. I applied to several schools between T14 to T24 but no results by far. My highest (and reasonable) goal is GWU and Boston University so I decide to retake in June and send in my updated score.

[objctnyrhnr]

I am waitlisted at U of Michigan, WUSTL, Boston College and the University of Washington. I applied to several schools between T14 to T24 but no results by far. My highest (and reasonable) goal is GWU and Boston University so I decide to retake in June and send in my updated score.

When did you apply?

[Johnnybgoode92]

Whatever you decide be proud you got the money offered. Its Impresive.

[QContinuum]

Thank you very much. My problem is that I am better at getting a high GPA than a good school at LSAT. I prepared LSAT for 2 years (1.5 years full-time for LSAT), completed 90 timed PTs (I repeated some), and took the test four times, but I think 166 is probably the highest number I can achieve.

Wait hold on. You had a “high gpa” and a 166 and you’re waitlisted at all the schools you named?

Why was your cycle so bad? When did you apply?

I just scrolled up and saw you have a 3.9 and 166?!?!?

Apply early next year. Literally it will be the best decision you’ve ever made.

Yeah, there's no way a 3.9/166 should be relegated to considering a bunch of T2 law schools. Here are OP's expected outcomes based on their numbers:


I'm at a loss to explain OP's substantial underperformance. They should be sitting on at least one or two "lower" T13 offers, and certainly multiple T20 offers with $. Did they apply in January or February? Do they have bad C&F issues? If they applied in 2018, and no C&F issues, I'd be inclined to suspect sabotage on the part of one of their recommenders.

[cavalier1138]

I agree that your results are weird without any aggravating factors (late application, character issue, etc.), but I also think you're leaving admissions and six-figure scholarships on the table if you don't grind out another 2-3 points on the LSAT. Most importantly...

I am better at getting a high GPA than a good LSAT score.

That may have been true about your undergrad GPA, but law school isn't undergrad. You cannot assume that you will do better than median.

[Claire]

Thank you very much. I think the LSAT medians for most schools have raised in recent years so a 166 is now below the medians of all the top 18 schools, that's why I aim at top20-top30...Other than that, I think there are several problems in my application:
1. LSAT retake in January 2019, so my applications completed very late.
2. C&F issue: a traffic ticket (failing to stop at a stop sign). I disclosed it in the C&F section.
3. I am an international student. I don't have a green card nor citizenship.
4. only have two years of college experience in the US and earned a 3.90 UPGA (ranked 9%) at a less prestigious institution (ranks 30-40 nationwide according to the latest US News rankings). my first two years of college was in a foreign institution and earned a 4.0 (ranked 1%)
5. leave of absence for one semester, when I worked full-time overseas.
6. most of my past experience consists of academic research. maybe schools would like to see more leadership?
7. mentioned in my PS that I started to learn English after high school and started to speak English in 2016.

[objctnyrhnr]

Thank you very much. I think the LSAT medians for most schools have raised in recent years so a 166 is now below the medians of all the top 18 schools, that's why I aim at top20-top30...Other than that, I think there are several problems in my application:
1. LSAT retake in January 2019, so my applications completed very late.
2. C&F issue: a traffic ticket (failing to stop at a stop sign). I disclosed it in the C&F section.
3. I am an international student. I don't have a green card nor citizenship.
4. only have two years of college experience in the US and earned a 3.90 UPGA (ranked 9%) at a less prestigious institution (ranks 30-40 nationwide according to the latest US News rankings). my first two years of college was in a foreign institution and earned a 4.0 (ranked 1%)
5. leave of absence for one semester, when I worked full-time overseas.
6. most of my past experience consists of academic research. maybe schools would like to see more leadership?
7. mentioned in my PS that I started to learn English after high school and started to speak English in 2016.

What would it cost you to reapply for the next cycle? I mean cost broadly—what would you do for a year, how mad would your parents be at you, etc.?

You should be getting money at lower t20s

[QContinuum]

Thank you very much. I think the LSAT medians for most schools have raised in recent years so a 166 is now below the medians of all the top 18 schools, that's why I aim at top20-top30...Other than that, I think there are several problems in my application:
1. LSAT retake in January 2019, so my applications completed very late.
2. C&F issue: a traffic ticket (failing to stop at a stop sign). I disclosed it in the C&F section.
3. I am an international student. I don't have a green card nor citizenship.
4. only have two years of college experience in the US and earned a 3.90 UPGA (ranked 9%) at a less prestigious institution (ranks 30-40 nationwide according to the latest US News rankings). my first two years of college was in a foreign institution and earned a 4.0 (ranked 1%)
5. leave of absence for one semester, when I worked full-time overseas.
6. most of my past experience consists of academic research. maybe schools would like to see more leadership?
7. mentioned in my PS that I started to learn English after high school and started to speak English in 2016.

I think you should reapply early next cycle. Sending in your applications in February most likely is the cause of your underperformance this cycle. Don't go to a T2 school when you could be attending a lower T13 or a T20 with $.

Better yet, use the additional time between now and fall to retake the LSAT. cavalier is right that even getting as few as 2-3 more points on the LSAT - entirely achievable - would dramatically improve your prospects.

Finally, a college ranked 30-40 in the States is most certainly not a "less prestigious institution." Law schools don't care about college prestige anyway (except maybe a slight boost to the HYP and equivalent schools). There are plenty of folks from unranked state colleges who get into the T13.

[Claire]

Thank you very much. I believe my biggest difficulty in reapplying is my LSAT score because I think a 166 is an accurate reflection or an exaggeration of my real ability. I spent a significantly longer time in preparing for the test (1800+ hours, 90 timed PTs+review, 2 years) but still received a low score. The mismatch between my GPA and LSAT is probably because I can raise my GPA by memorizing the material and visiting the writing resource center, whereas I cannot improve my LSAT by doing that.

[objctnyrhnr]

Thank you very much. I believe my biggest difficulty in reapplying is my LSAT score because I think a 166 is an accurate reflection or an exaggeration of my real ability. I spent a significantly longer time in preparing for the test (1800+ hours, 90 timed PTs+review, 2 years) but still received a low score. The mismatch between my GPA and LSAT is probably because I can raise my GPA by memorizing the material and visiting the writing resource center, whereas I cannot improve my LSAT by doing that.

Claire, even assuming that’s true, what it seems you’re not picking up, here, is that you drastically underperformed vis a vis acceptances for your numbers. The only reason for this that we can see is because you applied so late.

If you apply early next cycle, I promise your results will be exponentially better.

[cavalier1138]

Thank you very much. I believe my biggest difficulty in reapplying is my LSAT score because I think a 166 is an accurate reflection or an exaggeration of my real ability. I spent a significantly longer time in preparing for the test (1800+ hours, 90 timed PTs+review, 2 years) but still received a low score. The mismatch between my GPA and LSAT is probably because I can raise my GPA by memorizing the material and visiting the writing resource center, whereas I cannot improve my LSAT by doing that.

Claire, even assuming that’s true, what it seems you’re not picking up, here, is that you drastically underperformed vis a vis acceptances for your numbers. The only reason for this that we can see is because you applied so late.

If you apply early next cycle, I promise your results will be exponentially better.

This.

And this is also a reason to think that law school exams will be a massive problem for you. If you've been relying on memorization and getting help with your writing for your GPA, you won't have that in law school. Banking on doing really well 1L in order to transfer is always a bad idea.

[LSATWiz.com]

There is not really a strong link between UGPA and 1L GPA. The LSAT actually has the stronger correlation of the two. The reason for this is that at many schools, just getting by and not messing up will be enough to get an A as professors are predisposed to giving A's unless students give them reason not to.

In law school, the status quo is the median and professors generally err on the side of giving as many students median as possible. You need to stand out from your peers to get one grade above median and really, really stand out to get 2 or more as that requires either 2 people getting below median or one person getting really below median. Remember, that for you to get an A, at least one person must get below median and professors may be reluctant to give someone a below median grade unless they've done something wrong.

Regardless, the grading scheme is completely different from college. Don't assume that it will be easier to transfer because you had a 3.9 GPA in college. Law school grading works entirely differently from collegiate grading. Frequently, the people who did well in college because they were always on time to class, did all the homework and do what the professor says get owned by the law school curve as none of these things are particularly relevant to law school exams.

[objctnyrhnr]

Frankly as a mod, I’m surprised that this thread hasn’t blown up yet.

There are so many threads where the tls community tells people that certain school options aren’t worth their time and they need to retake. Tls loses their collective minds, and I cannot fault them in those situations (I’m typically on the bandwagon)

But in terms of travesty as defined by options versus potential options, this situation to me takes the cake. Op does not seem to understand the ridiculously immense difference that applying for next cycle would make on her results. Op doesn’t even need to improve at the Lsat to get some incredible offers.

Op do you realize that by the time you applied to, say, BC as an example, many people with numbers below yours already were accepted? Consequently, you cannot be accepted because the size of who they can accept was maxed out.

If you got in at the beginning of the cycle, you could be (to stick with BC) in at BC with over 100k total. Possibly closer to 200, I’m not sure. Not to mention you might be in at gtown Cornell maybe even uva if you apply in September.

Do you understand this?

Waiting for a year has to be worth that.