Harvard vs. Columbia vs NYU vs Duke (vs UChicago?) Forum

[QContinuum]

But, I can concede that not all of the benefits are reserved for the top of the class. Perhaps the bottom 10-15% of HLS will have a easier time landing an undesirable BL job from EIP/OCI than would a T13 grad. However, given the level of fucking-up it takes to be at the bottom, you'd probably be out of BL within a year or two with the debt still looming over your head.

This was true back when the economy was worse but Chicago's per-capita employment numbers are straight-up better than Harvard's nowadays. I'm not saying "Chicago better overall", but having 350 fewer mouths to feed is a huge advantage that swamps any gap in gestalt quality when it comes to outcomes for the bottom third of the class. And I'd probably rather my transcript read "169" than "straight P's with one LP" if I'm trying to finesse my way past an interviewer at Jones Day or whatever.

Agree. Chicago and Columbia benefit from having much smaller classes, thus many fewer (in raw numbers) bottom 10% students to place.

I think NYU's a bit different because it has B minuses on the curve. But neither Chicago nor Columbia has that issue.

[thankunext]

wow thanks everyone for weighing in!

a few more thoughts/qs:
- when is the best time to start negotiating/which schools do i have a shot at negotiating with (eg would uchicago come up based off columbia’s offer or a harvard acceptance?) is the harvard acceptance something that can be used in negotiating? how does one negotiate in the first place? is it realistic to negotiate up uchicago to be comparable to columbia or nyu’s offer?

To put some hard numbers on that, here's my napkin math for CoA:

Duke: $210k (probably no debt after a SA job! nice!)
Berkeley: $285k
NYU: $285k
Columbia: $295k
Chicago: $335k
Harvard: $365k (doubt OP gets need-based aid between their savings and their parents' apparent assets)

Duke is the best value, and Berkeley is at least as good as everything more expensive (especially if OP gets merit aid there, which their HCCN offers imply they might). NYU/Columbia wouldn't be shoot-yourself-in-the-foot stupid but Harvard/Chicago definitely are here.

- how should i be calculating CoA? I did look at what each school publishes as the cost of one year but those numbers differ much less than the ones above

-does the really large class size of harvard “devalue” an HLS degree relative to say a UChicago degree since there are so many fewer Uchicago law degrees out there? ie making whatever marginal difference with HLS that may exist even smaller?

[jsnow212]

wow thanks everyone for weighing in!

a few more thoughts/qs:

- when is the best time to start negotiating/which schools do i have a shot at negotiating with (eg would uchicago come up based off columbia’s offer or a harvard acceptance?) is the harvard acceptance something that can be used in negotiating? how does one negotiate in the first place? is it realistic to negotiate up uchicago to be comparable to columbia or nyu’s offer?

- how should i be calculating CoA? I did look at what each school publishes as the cost of one year but those numbers differ much less than the ones above

-does the really large class size of harvard “devalue” an HLS degree relative to say a UChicago degree since there are so many fewer Uchicago law degrees out there? ie making whatever marginal difference with HLS that may exist even smaller?

1) Start now, since deadlines are coming up. Chicago will look at Columbia and NYU's offer, they won't give a damn about HLS @ sticker for negotiating purposes.

The question could be better answered if you indicated which school you currently prefer most. For example, if you want CLS and just want to extract every bit of aid possible, I would just send them all of your offers now, ask for more money, and be done with it.

2) The best way is to look at https://www.lstreports.com/
When you finance law school, you are looking at tuition increases, accumulated interest, and loan fees. All of these add up to substantially more than the 1-year COA x 3.

3) It's one of the factors that does reduce HLS's marginal value compared to peer schools. The incremental placement power/prestige of HLS is easily outweighed by the need to place 150-350 extra bodies in jobs.

[cavalier1138]

You can definitely leverage your Columbia/NYU scholarships and your Harvard acceptance to try and squeeze money out of Chicago (or to leverage the schools against one another). I would guess that Duke is not going to be as strong a bargaining chip with CCN.

But I don't think we ever found out: what's your offer from Berkeley?

[The Lsat Airbender]

- how should i be calculating CoA? I did look at what each school publishes as the cost of one year but those numbers differ much less than the ones above

I used CoA numbers from https://www.lstreports.com/ that use standard accounting assumptions to take into account loan capitalization, in-state tuition, annual tuition increases, etc., and then subtracted your scholarship offers. You're not entirely loan-financed, which makes the projections more conservative, but that should affect all schools about equally and it's the marginal differences that matter here.

-does the really large class size of harvard “devalue” an HLS degree relative to say a UChicago degree since there are so many fewer Uchicago law degrees out there? ie making whatever marginal difference with HLS that may exist even smaller?

I don't think you should double-count the effect but it's there. My honest take: Harvard is the greatest law school in the country in a holistic sense, but its huge class means that Yale has always produced better per-capita outcomes, Stanford caught up last decade, and now Chicago is threatening to do the same this coming decade. From the perspective of a student, for whom per-capita outcomes dominate every other consideration, the margin between H and CCN is pretty thin nowadays. (It's like how I think the US is the greatest country in the world, by far, but deciding whether I'd rather live in the US or Canada is a close question dependent on other factors.)

But I don't think we ever found out: what's your offer from Berkeley?

Seconding this! I keep getting the feeling that Berkeley is your best option on paper if you can get past the "leave the West Coast" thing.

[thankunext]

thanks all for the advice!

haven't shared my offer from Berkeley since I made the decision to let it go -- my $120k scholarship expired 4/1.

[jsnow212]

thanks all for the advice!

haven't shared my offer from Berkeley since I made the decision to let it go -- my $120k scholarship expired 4/1.

[BrainsyK]

Seconded.

[cavalier1138]

I mean, no use crying over spilt milk. But JFC...

[ConfusedNYer]

I always wanted to reply to one of these, but never really felt like I could present much of an opinion, but now that I'm out of school I feel like I can maybe provide something more useful. (One year out of school, but my feedback partially reflects my employment outcome for what will be my second year.)

For context I was making a similar decision with regards to money re: your choice between Columbia, NYU and Harvard. I also had personal savings and some familial support that effected my decision. It wasn't really the type of situation where I could have just asked for the money instead of going to law school or if I had a full ride, so I understand that pressure a bit. I never got >$100k from any school, so that certainly colored my decision and I'm honestly not sure how I would have decided if I had that much money on the table. I ended up taking HLS.

First off, if you end up trying to make a decision between Columbia and NYU, please visit both schools and try to talk to a bunch of students at both schools. Through my interactions both in law school and post-law school, I've gotten the impression of a pretty big culture difference between the two student bodies. This can be pretty important when you're talking about three, at times very difficult, years. Personally if I had to pick between the two at relatively even money I'd go NYU, but that's more reflective of my personality as opposed to a value judgment (same goes for Chicago, btw).

Second, and you can write this off as anecdotal. I believed I would not have gotten my current and future gig if I didn't go to HLS. I managed to grab I clerkship and I know for a fact that wouldn't have been possible from either of those two schools. (I wasn't some top %15 percent student. I was thoroughly median and don't think I would have done much better at a different school.) I may have gotten a job at the firm I'll be going to somewhere down the line, but it would have likely required 2-4 years at a traditional V whateva firm first (based off the profiles from other associates).

Third, a note on HLS class size. I think the obvious negative aspects of classes that size are largely offset from the network value of a class that size. It was something I was nervous about (not that I was really looking at significantly smaller schools) but in the end it felt like a net neutral thing.

Fourth, again super anecdotal, but there does seem to be some benefit to having the HLS attachment even once you get into a job. I know of situations like a top student from Fordham being forced into transactional when they wanted a lit vs. a median HLS student at the same firm not having that issue. Though I'm skeptical this really matters that much between say Columbia and HLS.

Having said all that - and I hate to say this given the situation. If you goal is IP/Tech on the west coast long term, Berkley was probably the right choice with that money. My concern would be I really don't know how well Duke places west coast (maybe it can place well?). Maybe with strong ties that isn't an issue. I just don't feel like the benefit I got from HLS really translates super significantly to generic IP/Tech at a big firm?

I guess I don't really have strong advice either way. Just wanted to provide the perspective of someone who had to make a similar choice and is relatively happy with their decision.

[AdieuCali]

My vote is for H. OP lit $50k on fire to avoid having to live in the Bay Area for 3 years, so money should clearly not be the deciding factor here. Might as well maximize career outcomes.