Top Law Schools

Real decision. Number one goal is Philly biglaw. Second would be Wilmington biglaw (to the extent that it exists). If I went to Temple, third would be Philly as an attorney in a private firm; if I went to UVA, third would be biglaw anywhere east coast.

Temple biglaw + fedclerk is about 22%. UVA is about 80%.

Obviously I have way better chances at getting biglaw from UVA. But coming out almost debt free (I have savings I could put toward cost of living while at Temple) v. coming out at least 250k in debt is a big decision.

I really want to hear your opinions on these two options, but to add a little more info, I am waiting to hear from BU/BC and was waitlisted at Penn.

What do you think about Temple full ride v. UVA sticker for Philly biglaw?

If you're biglaw or bust then don't go to temple. Do you have any other options? What are your numbers?

Dcc617 wrote:Do you have any other options?

This is my question. You shouldn't be deciding between a mediocre school for free and a top school at sticker.

Given that you want to work in private practice (preferably biglaw), I wouldn't even consider Temple. That debt will not be fun- no doubt about it- but even less fun will be getting shut out of the employment you seek.

cavalier1138 wrote:

Dcc617 wrote:Do you have any other options?

This is my question. You shouldn't be deciding between a mediocre school for free and a top school at sticker.

Don't know if I forgot to hit submit or if my reply had to be approved first.

Numbers are 3.3/170. Graduated so GPA is fixed.

Results so far: Dinged from Cornell. Waitlist at Michigan and Penn. Waiting on a number of schools, including BU/BC, Georgetown, Duke, GWU, and Vanderbilt. Accepted with $$$ at WUSTL and Emory.

See if my head's in the right place here. Given a 67% biglaw+fedclerk at Vandy, best case scenario would be about half scholarship at Vandy?

Mencken1 wrote:

cavalier1138 wrote:

Dcc617 wrote:Do you have any other options?

This is my question. You shouldn't be deciding between a mediocre school for free and a top school at sticker.

Don't know if I forgot to hit submit or if my reply had to be approved first.

Numbers are 3.3/170. Graduated so GPA is fixed.

Results so far: Dinged from Cornell. Waitlist at Michigan and Penn. Waiting on a number of schools, including BU/BC, Georgetown, Duke, GWU, and Vanderbilt. Accepted with $$$ at WUSTL and Emory.

See if my head's in the right place here. Given a 67% biglaw+fedclerk at Vandy, best case scenario would be about half scholarship at Vandy?

Can I ask when you applied in the cycle? Was it recently, or back in October/November?

Hordfest wrote:

Mencken1 wrote:

cavalier1138 wrote:

Dcc617 wrote:Do you have any other options?

This is my question. You shouldn't be deciding between a mediocre school for free and a top school at sticker.

Don't know if I forgot to hit submit or if my reply had to be approved first.

Numbers are 3.3/170. Graduated so GPA is fixed.

Results so far: Dinged from Cornell. Waitlist at Michigan and Penn. Waiting on a number of schools, including BU/BC, Georgetown, Duke, GWU, and Vanderbilt. Accepted with $$$ at WUSTL and Emory.

See if my head's in the right place here. Given a 67% biglaw+fedclerk at Vandy, best case scenario would be about half scholarship at Vandy?

Can I ask when you applied in the cycle? Was it recently, or back in October/November?

By the end of December for each school.

Mencken1 wrote:

cavalier1138 wrote:

Dcc617 wrote:Do you have any other options?

This is my question. You shouldn't be deciding between a mediocre school for free and a top school at sticker.

Don't know if I forgot to hit submit or if my reply had to be approved first.

Numbers are 3.3/170. Graduated so GPA is fixed.

Results so far: Dinged from Cornell. Waitlist at Michigan and Penn. Waiting on a number of schools, including BU/BC, Georgetown, Duke, GWU, and Vanderbilt. Accepted with $$$ at WUSTL and Emory.

See if my head's in the right place here. Given a 67% biglaw+fedclerk at Vandy, best case scenario would be about half scholarship at Vandy?

Have you discussed the scholarship offers you have with UVA admissions. Obviously they're not going to match WUSTL, but could they maybe get to $50k? That would make it a lot more palatable. Obviously if Duke or Gtown bit and offered $$$ that would be better for negotiating.

While I'm sure Philly is attainable from Emory/WUSTL if you're at or near the top of the class, that's not something you can bank on.

I’d also encourage you to do some serious WL work to try and get off of the penn waitlist. That’d place you in philly, guarantee you big law and they’re not quite as stingy with money as UVA is so you might even get a small scholarship out of it. But I’ll echo everyone else, if you’re biglaw or bust, regardless of market, don’t go to temple.

TLS wrote:I’d also encourage you to do some serious WL work to try and get off of the penn waitlist. That’d place you in philly, guarantee you big law and they’re not quite as stingy with money as UVA is so you might even get a small scholarship out of it. But I’ll echo everyone else, if you’re biglaw or bust, regardless of market, don’t go to temple.

I agree with the above. I also think OP should try to indicate their interest to Michigan, which tends to be among the most generous T13s in offering $.

QContinuum wrote:

TLS wrote:I’d also encourage you to do some serious WL work to try and get off of the penn waitlist. That’d place you in philly, guarantee you big law and they’re not quite as stingy with money as UVA is so you might even get a small scholarship out of it. But I’ll echo everyone else, if you’re biglaw or bust, regardless of market, don’t go to temple.

I agree with the above. I also think OP should try to indicate their interest to Michigan, which tends to be among the most generous T13s in offering $.

I’ve mentioned before that Spivey expects a lot of waitlist movement this year. Use that as incentive to work to off the waitlist. https://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/halfway/
Don’t go to Temple.

IDK if I'd go sar far as to say that Penn guarantees big law. While you're obviously speaking in hyperbolic terms, you can't predict the economy 3 years out and big law hiring is very reactionary. If the economy slows down, hiring will slow down as well. The difference between Penn and UVA is not that large, but acceptance to Penn would give you leverage in negotiating scholarships. It would be much easier to place in Philly coming from Penn, but anywhere else is not that drastic. I also think an underrated factor in picking schools is that part of your outcome is contingent on how you perform, and we aren't robots - our performance is somewhat impacted by our environment and different people perform better in different environments. The environment at Penn is very different from the environment at UVA.

Thanks for the input everyone. It sounds like I've got a long cycle ahead.

No, I have not discussed the scholarships I've been offered with UVA. I will get on that.

UBETutoring wrote: The environment at Penn is very different from the environment at UVA.

Appreciate the response; can you expand? I know Penn is situated very close to Center City in University City (and next to Drexel and 30th Street Station etc.), but other than the city/rural difference, what else do you think makes the two environments different?

TLS wrote:I’d also encourage you to do some serious WL work to try and get off of the penn waitlist. That’d place you in philly, guarantee you big law and they’re not quite as stingy with money as UVA is so you might even get a small scholarship out of it. But I’ll echo everyone else, if you’re biglaw or bust, regardless of market, don’t go to temple.

Penn actually has a weird relationship with Philly. If you don't have a ton of other ties to the city local firms are ridiculously suspicious of your desire to remain. Coming from Penn with no ties to anywhere really (I'm Canadian) I faced a lot more blowback on "why [city]" in Philly than tie-heavy places like the Bay Area.

Not to take away from the general idea here that OP shouldn't go to Temple if they want big law, but Penn = Philly Big law isn't really accurate either.

Mencken1 wrote:Thanks for the input everyone. It sounds like I've got a long cycle ahead.

No, I have not discussed the scholarships I've been offered with UVA. I will get on that.

UBETutoring wrote: The environment at Penn is very different from the environment at UVA.

Appreciate the response; can you expand? I know Penn is situated very close to Center City in University City (and next to Drexel and 30th Street Station etc.), but other than the city/rural difference, what else do you think makes the two environments different?

I've heard stories of people hiding books in the library at UPenn whereas something like that would be unheard of at UVa. The vibe is much more of a gentleman/woman duel than a straight up fight. That doesn't mean this is true for every class or year to year.

However, environment may be a bigger factor. UVa is very rural and you are away from most distractions. UPenn is in the middle of a large city. Some people would find being in a rural area to be lonely and depressing and wouldn't do as well. Others would find it peaceful and distraction-free and do better. While one may place better in a specific area than another, the reality is that one A- vs. one B+ would offset that difference. Although it's impossible to predict 1L grades, it is possible to predict where you'll perform best. For the average student, it won't matter but for many it may, which is why I say that environment is underrated. It's not worth $100k or picking a T-14 vs. a T-50, but it is a factor applicants should consider.

UBETutoring wrote:
I've heard stories of people hiding books in the library at UPenn whereas something like that would be unheard of at UVa. The vibe is much more of a gentleman/woman duel than a straight up fight. That doesn't mean this is true for every class or year to year.

I think that kind of thing is always spread about some other school, but I honestly can't imagine that happening at Penn. It was shocking to me how much it didn't even feel like a "duel," it was less competitive than even that. Penn waxes poetically even more than most about "collegiality" which I think is always largely bullshit but felt as true at Penn as I can imagine anywhere.

Good luck with PENN, that would obviously be the easy choice. Have you checked out Morgan Lewis to see how many Temple associates they’ve hired, ditto other big Philly firms such as Pepper?

(Philly mid-law firms are loaded with Temple and Nova grads)

Auxilio wrote:

UBETutoring wrote:
I've heard stories of people hiding books in the library at UPenn whereas something like that would be unheard of at UVa. The vibe is much more of a gentleman/woman duel than a straight up fight. That doesn't mean this is true for every class or year to year.

I think that kind of thing is always spread about some other school, but I honestly can't imagine that happening at Penn. It was shocking to me how much it didn't even feel like a "duel," it was less competitive than even that. Penn waxes poetically even more than most about "collegiality" which I think is always largely bullshit but felt as true at Penn as I can imagine anywhere.

Agreed. It’d be dumb to hide the books and I’ve never seen nor heard of anything like that. I’m going to second the idea that that’s a rumor spread around. I also agree about philly being difficult with no ties but if you come in gunning for philly from day 1 at Penn The firms eat that up. Especially now with the NALP rule changes so they’re in the middle of a recruiting free for all. The fact that OP said philly or Wilmington are preferred markets make me think they likely have connections to the area so assuming that I think it’s safe to say they’d be perfectly fine placing at Ballard/MorganLewis/Skadden with decent grades and a clear reason for staying out of penn.