Top Law Schools

Hey ya'll feel free to hit me with all that awesome TLS knowledge, and i'll be sure to reply as unhelpfully and trollishly as possible but really, thanks in advance.

Numbers: 170/3.21 (Took the LSAT 4 times)

Schools and rough COA - Will be financed primarily with loans, I don't come from much money and will likely only have about 10k saved before school
UVA: 290k - no $ - so rude
Northwestern: 220k - 20k/year scholly - will be submitting negotiation email once i hear back from UT
UT: 145k - 15k/year plus in state - submitted renegotiation form - may end up depositing to buy time
WUSTL: 100k - 48k/year scholly - asked for more but was told "no funds available at this time" - have not sent them NU's offer yet

Career goals are general 0l biglaw. From the northeast/philly, so standard ties but willing to live pretty much anywhere. Quite certain that I would love Texas, but no ties so an obvious concern.

Gimme some of that fancy book learning!

I would probably say Northwestern as of now, but you'd want to see if you can get that COA down under $200k before signing on. That's a lot of debt.

jbagelboy wrote:I would probably say Northwestern as of now, but you'd want to see if you can get that COA down under $200k before signing on. That's a lot of debt.

Yeah that's the conclusion that I'm coming to. hopefully i can get a little more splitter love out of them

I'd get rid of UVA.
Buy time at UT (since deposit dealine is tomorrow)
But aggressively negotiate with NU, UT, and WUSTL.

You're in a weird spot money wise where a little bit more from any school without movement from the others would tip the scales in their favor imo. So if UT bumps up offer, I'd pick UT over WUSTL. If NU bumps up offer $10k/yr more I'd probably pick them over UT.

So I don't really have an answer for you other than to buy more time, be persistent, and see what happens.

Rigo wrote:I'd get rid of UVA.
Buy time at UT (since deposit dealine is tomorrow)
But aggressively negotiate with NU, UT, and WUSTL.

You're in a weird spot money wise where a little bit more from any school without movement from the others would tip the scales in their favor imo. So if UT bumps up offer, I'd pick UT over WUSTL. If NU bumps up offer $10k/yr more I'd probably pick them over UT.

So I don't really have an answer for you other than to buy more time, be persistent, and see what happens.

The UVA was more of a humblebrag/secretly hoping TLS would tell me to go there and override my debt concerns with promises of beer and clerkships.

But yeah it is all so close that it's a hard pick. Thanks Rigo

I don't know that Northwestern is worth 75K more than UT or 120K (!) more than WUSTL

Agree about keep negotiating but gun to my head I guess I'd go WUSTL?

BigZuck wrote:I don't know that Northwestern is worth 75K more than UT or 120K (!) more than WUSTL

Agree about keep negotiating but gun to my head I guess I'd go WUSTL?

Wow, I'm stunned i didn't get a "hook'em" reply from you. Thanks for the response! I guess one of the biggest factors I'm looking at is weighing debt vs. employment security which is whats giving me the hold up. That and I'm not convinced of wustl's new 46% big law numbers

Dude, this is probably the most interesting case I've seen in a while on here. I think every option other than UVA is defensible on some level for different reasons.

If someone is NYC or Chicago Biglaw or bust, I'd probably cringe and pull the trigger on Northwestern (even though that COA would give me a lot of pause). I'd keep negotiating because even a slight improvement in COA would make this a much more attractive option.

WUSTL is defensible because it's the cheapest option, but it also has the worst biglaw numbers.

UT gets "middled" here...it's neither the cheapest nor the most likely to get you biglaw in the northeast. Or, other people might say it's a solid compromise with a little good from both. I think that's a valid perspective too.

Ultimately...force me to pick, and I'd probably go UT. Yea it's not the best of either world but that compromise choice actually appeals to me. Texas is like California. It's big and has a lot of diversity when it comes to lifestyle environments that might appeal to you. You'd have a solid chance at biglaw without a monstrous debt load. Do a decade or two in a new place, get some experience and who knows--I could see you being able to move back to the northeast with experience.

I'd go UT here and hope for the best, absent like 30k more from NU.

ponderingmeerkat wrote:Dude, this is probably the most interesting case I've seen in a while on here. I think every option other than UVA is defensible on some level for different reasons.

If someone is NYC or Chicago Biglaw or bust, I'd probably cringe and pull the trigger on Northwestern (even though that COA would give me a lot of pause). I'd keep negotiating because even a slight improvement in COA would make this a much more attractive option.

WUSTL is defensible because it's the cheapest option, but it also has the worst biglaw numbers.

UT gets "middled" here...it's neither the cheapest nor the most likely to get you biglaw in the northeast. Or, other people might say it's a solid compromise with a little good from both. I think that's a valid perspective too.

Ultimately...force me to pick, and I'd probably go UT. Yea it's not the best of either world but that compromise choice actually appeals to me. Texas is like California. It's big and has a lot of diversity when it comes to lifestyle environments that might appeal to you. You'd have a solid chance at biglaw without a monstrous debt load. Do a decade or two in a new place, get some experience and who knows--I could see you being able to move back to the northeast with experience.

Is this factoring in the lack of texas ties? I'd say even like 15k more to NU would have me in a second, but they're all so close right now.

thatlawlkid wrote:

BigZuck wrote:I don't know that Northwestern is worth 75K more than UT or 120K (!) more than WUSTL

Agree about keep negotiating but gun to my head I guess I'd go WUSTL?

Wow, I'm stunned i didn't get a "hook'em" reply from you. Thanks for the response! I guess one of the biggest factors I'm looking at is weighing debt vs. employment security which is whats giving me the hold up. That and I'm not convinced of wustl's new 46% big law numbers

To me WUSTL is the only one close to what I'd personally be willing to spend. This isn't hard and fast necessarily but I wouldn't spend more than about 150K for a T14 or 100K for a UT/WUSTL type school.

I know you're in a tough place as a splitter, that's just IMHO

thatlawlkid wrote:

ponderingmeerkat wrote:Dude, this is probably the most interesting case I've seen in a while on here. I think every option other than UVA is defensible on some level for different reasons.

If someone is NYC or Chicago Biglaw or bust, I'd probably cringe and pull the trigger on Northwestern (even though that COA would give me a lot of pause). I'd keep negotiating because even a slight improvement in COA would make this a much more attractive option.

WUSTL is defensible because it's the cheapest option, but it also has the worst biglaw numbers.

UT gets "middled" here...it's neither the cheapest nor the most likely to get you biglaw in the northeast. Or, other people might say it's a solid compromise with a little good from both. I think that's a valid perspective too.

Ultimately...force me to pick, and I'd probably go UT. Yea it's not the best of either world but that compromise choice actually appeals to me. Texas is like California. It's big and has a lot of diversity when it comes to lifestyle environments that might appeal to you. You'd have a solid chance at biglaw without a monstrous debt load. Do a decade or two in a new place, get some experience and who knows--I could see you being able to move back to the northeast with experience.

Is this factoring in the lack of texas ties? I'd say even like 15k more to NU would have me in a second, but they're all so close right now.

Yes, and for this reason:

Sure, there is some percentage chance a Texas employer will not hire you because of your lack of ties. Not sure what that percentage is (and you'd probably get as many guesses on here as posters) but, suffice it to say, it's much less than 100%.

In contrast, if you go to Northwestern, there's a 100% chance you'll accrue $75K more in debt.

So, what you have to decide is this: Is the marginal likelihood of getting to your biglaw goal worth that 100% chance of spending an extra 75K?

Based on 2015 numbers, NU has ~70% BL/FC numbers to Texas' ~40%. I'll leave it to you to gonkulate those valuations. But, even if ties move the needle at the margins, I'd struggle to suggest NU right now.

But, like I said in my first post, this is an interesting case because the choices are close. If you posted a poll, I bet you'd get somewhere near 33/33/33 percent for each option. It's not clear cut, and I can understand the arguments others are making.

Poll added!

Is cost of living at NW that expensive? With a 60k scholarship, you're thinking you're gonna drop 33k a year on living expenses?

RParadela wrote:Is cost of living at NW that expensive? With a 60k scholarship, you're thinking you're gonna drop 33k a year on living expenses?

I was ballparking it using LST reports. I assume origination fees and interest while in school bump it up. Living would likely be about 25k?

In a vacuum with no renegotiations, I'm hopping on the WUSTL train. That's the only level of debt I'd personally be comfortable with. You'll unfortunately never be in a position to snag big scholarships at T13. If NU budges, they come into play, but I'd still personally pick WUSTL since I'm almost a pathological debt-avoider.

thatlawlkid wrote:

RParadela wrote:Is cost of living at NW that expensive? With a 60k scholarship, you're thinking you're gonna drop 33k a year on living expenses?

I was ballparking it using LST reports. I assume origination fees and interest while in school bump it up. Living would likely be about 25k?

Loan origination fees and interest are no joke, I think it's definitely smart to overestimate rather than underestimate. My back of the envelope "Oh it'll probably be about 60K debt" was almost pushing 100K by the time I started working.

Eta: #hookem

UVA2B wrote:In a vacuum with no renegotiations, I'm hopping on the WUSTL train. That's the only level of debt I'd personally be comfortable with. You'll unfortunately never be in a position to snag big scholarships at T13. If NU budges, they come into play, but I'd still personally pick WUSTL since I'm almost a pathological debt-avoider.

I'm the Conductor but happy to name you Assistant to the Conductor if you'd like.

UVA2B wrote:In a vacuum with no renegotiations, I'm hopping on the WUSTL train. That's the only level of debt I'd personally be comfortable with. You'll unfortunately never be in a position to snag big scholarships at T13. If NU budges, they come into play, but I'd still personally pick WUSTL since I'm almost a pathological debt-avoider.

Yeah, I completely understand that. I am debt adverse, but I feel like I'm even more adverse to going through all of this without a solid chance of good employment, which is why NU's employment numbers are pulling me in.

BigZuck wrote:

UVA2B wrote:In a vacuum with no renegotiations, I'm hopping on the WUSTL train. That's the only level of debt I'd personally be comfortable with. You'll unfortunately never be in a position to snag big scholarships at T13. If NU budges, they come into play, but I'd still personally pick WUSTL since I'm almost a pathological debt-avoider.

I'm the Conductor but happy to name you Assistant to the Conductor if you'd like.

I'll get my conductor's hat. We can change the world! (or at least the distorted little world of TLS where debt is less important than prestige among the portion of the population that has never taken on debt before)

Wow, I am in the exact same situation

thatlawlkid wrote: Is this factoring in the lack of texas ties? I'd say even like 15k more to NU would have me in a second, but they're all so close right now.

If NU tells you that they can't provide you any more funding when you share with them your UT offer, I'd go back at them saying, I'll deposit right now Xk more per year. If you are really just trying to get that 15-20k to tip the scales from them all being equally tempting.

This same argument could be made for UT over NU i guess as well.

saf18hornet wrote:

thatlawlkid wrote: Is this factoring in the lack of texas ties? I'd say even like 15k more to NU would have me in a second, but they're all so close right now.

If NU tells you that they can't provide you any more funding when you share with them your UT offer, I'd go back at them saying, I'll deposit right now Xk more per year. If you are really just trying to get that 15-20k to tip the scales from them all being equally tempting.

This same argument could be made for UT over NU i guess as well.

Has anyone ever actually had success with this level of directness?

thatlawlkid wrote:

saf18hornet wrote:

thatlawlkid wrote: Is this factoring in the lack of texas ties? I'd say even like 15k more to NU would have me in a second, but they're all so close right now.

If NU tells you that they can't provide you any more funding when you share with them your UT offer, I'd go back at them saying, I'll deposit right now Xk more per year. If you are really just trying to get that 15-20k to tip the scales from them all being equally tempting.

This same argument could be made for UT over NU i guess as well.

Has anyone ever actually had success with this level of directness?

every bit of negotiation advice I've ever seen said this doesn't play.

guybourdin wrote:

thatlawlkid wrote:

saf18hornet wrote:

thatlawlkid wrote: Is this factoring in the lack of texas ties? I'd say even like 15k more to NU would have me in a second, but they're all so close right now.

If NU tells you that they can't provide you any more funding when you share with them your UT offer, I'd go back at them saying, I'll deposit right now Xk more per year. If you are really just trying to get that 15-20k to tip the scales from them all being equally tempting.

This same argument could be made for UT over NU i guess as well.

Has anyone ever actually had success with this level of directness?

every bit of negotiation advice I've ever seen said this doesn't play.

Crap, that's what I wrote in my reconsideratikn form....