Syracuse Hybrid Forum

[DJDJTX]

Obviously they need ABA to accredit this program first, but I'm seriously looking at it because I have no other options. I'm 40 yo with a FT job (@6 fig. salary) and a young family. Relocating isn't an option for me at this stage in my life. There are no law schools within a reasonable manageable proximity to where I live, except UT, which is only a FT program.

Lets assume I wouldn't have any trouble getting into this program, I'd be fulfilling a lifelong dream of becoming an attorney and helping my community, and I'd have a job as counsel at my current company (in Texas) when I graduate and pass bar; at $48k annual, would Syracuse be a huge mistake?

[snw2367]

Obviously they need ABA to accredit this program first, but I'm seriously looking at it because I have no other options. I'm 40 yo with a FT job (@6 fig. salary) and a young family. Relocating isn't an option for me at this stage in my life. There are no law schools within a reasonable manageable proximity to where I live, except UT, which is only a FT program.

Lets assume I wouldn't have any trouble getting into this program, I'd be fulfilling a lifelong dream of becoming an attorney and helping my community, and I'd have a job as counsel at my current company (in Texas) when I graduate and pass bar; at $48k annual, would Syracuse be a huge mistake?

Well, a couple of questions:
1) Why do you want to become an attorney?
2) Would your job as counsel be guaranteed?
3) You would need to take the LSAT, and that in addition with your GPA, would determine how much scholarship money would would receive from the program (thus, it might not be 48k/yr for YOU).... guess that wasn't a question.

[haus]

I am a student at the hybrid program at Mitchell Hamline.

When I started the program that I am in, I expected that many traditional employers would likely be slow to accept programs such as this. I suspect that 10-20 years from now, hybrid programs, or something similar to them will be more common, but in the short-term any student considered going down this path should be prepared to be a bit of an odd-duck.

You should try to consider how much you really want to become an attorney. One possible benefit of being one of the early ones in a unusual program, is that the school may be more generous with scholarships as they attempt to build a audience from scratch.

[DJDJTX]

Well, a couple of questions:

1) Why do you want to become an attorney?

I work in real estate development and the oil and gas sector. My group has to outsource a lot of compliance and transactional work to attorneys and it eats into profits. If I could handle this work, my company and I could split the difference of what we save keeping legal work in house....in theory. Longer term however, I would love the opportunity to be able to help my community in various ways. I'm not certain exactly what that looks like yet.

2) Would your job as counsel be guaranteed?

My employer expressed an interest in having me act as their in house legal counsel, in addition to the consulting work I'm on salary for. No agreement binding - not guaranteed, but I have job security in my current company. The likelihood is high that it could become a reality....But If that didn't work I have a pretty strong Texas network; I'd consider small firm general practice or property law practice. I have 20 years of professional experience in real estate and oil and gas.

You would need to take the LSAT, and that in addition with your GPA, would determine how much scholarship money would would receive from the program (thus, it might not be 48k/yr for YOU).

LSCA UGPA is 3.31 from TX A&M System. Cold diagnostic (June 2007 practice LSAT): 152 without studying. I'm sure I can get that up. As an out of state applicant with low scores/gpa, I didn't anticipate getting any help from anyone.

[Rigo]

As an out of state applicant with low scores/gpa, I didn't anticipate getting any help from anyone.

Syracuse is a private school so they don't care if you're out of state. Also a solid LSAT should get you a scholarship.

[Rigo]

Idk I personally don't think its worth it since you have a high paying job and of a certain age with a family to support.
Maybe if you could go for free? The legal outcomes from Syracuse (I have no idea about the hybrid program) will leave you with a huge pay cut. So really you're just looking for a raise at your own company.

I'm confused why you initially said it was some lifelong dream to go to law school to help your community when it sounds like your actual goal is to do oil and gas compliance work.

[DJDJTX]

I'm confused why you initially said it was some lifelong dream to go to law school to help your community when it sounds like your actual goal is to do oil and gas compliance work.

"It has been a lifelong dream" just sounds like a dumb and naive reason. I grew up around law enforcement, government agencies and attorneys. I always wanted to know everything I could about the law. I've always wanted to possess the ability to represent myself, my family or my community in a legal capacity in a time of need and to hold people accountable for their actions. My visions of doing pro bono work outshine my visions of driving around in big boats and living in big houses.

I feel like life has led me down this circuitous road to achieving my dream for a reason. Quitting a 6figure salary at 40 to start a new career is ignorant. So, I'm looking for a way to blend a law education into my present situation until I can learn to do more with it. I'm not interested in adding to the unemployed lawyer statistic. I would never supplant a career I've worked hard to build with an unproven one unless or until it made sense. It never hurts to have more tools in your bag though.

[DJDJTX]

I am a student at the hybrid program at Mitchell Hamline.

When I started the program that I am in, I expected that many traditional employers would likely be slow to accept programs such as this. I suspect that 10-20 years from now, hybrid programs, or something similar to them will be more common, but in the short-term any student considered going down this path should be prepared to be a bit of an odd-duck.

You should try to consider how much you really want to become an attorney. One possible benefit of being one of the early ones in a unusual program, is that the school may be more generous with scholarships as they attempt to build a audience from scratch.

What are your plans post grad/bar, odd duck haus? Just curious.

[haus]

What are your plans post grad/bar, odd duck haus? Just curious.

I currently work in InfoSec. I believe that a niche will exist for people who have a deep background in IT/InfoSec and can work directly with the legal and contracting/purchasing teams for large organizations.

[BigZuck]

What kinds of transactional work are you outsourcing that you think you might be able to handle yourself?

Law school doesn't really teach you any practical skills. You wouldn't be any more equipped to write a contract, nor would you be any more equipped to negotiate a contract. You'd also (presumably) be negotiating with/against people who have experience doing that type of thing. Basically if you don't have any training doing that kind of work (either from working at a firm or working under an experienced lawyer at your company) I think there's a pretty strong chance you might be a net negative in that process rather than providing added value. I don't know though, maybe you are highly involved with that stuff now and you just need the JD to rubber stamp things.

[DJDJTX]

What kinds of transactional work are you outsourcing that you think you might be able to handle yourself?
Law school doesn't really teach you any practical skills. You wouldn't be any more equipped to write a contract, nor would you be any more equipped to negotiate a contract. You'd also (presumably) be negotiating with/against people who have experience doing that type of thing. Basically if you don't have any training doing that kind of work (either from working at a firm or working under an experienced lawyer at your company) I think there's a pretty strong chance you might be a net negative in that process rather than providing added value. I don't know though, maybe you are highly involved with that stuff now and you just need the JD to rubber stamp things.

Our attorneys draft and review complex contracts, leases and purchase agreements, loan mods, structure financing, they work through entitlement and resolve title issues, handle disputes, provide general advisement on governance, defensibility and best practices, set up legal entities, correspond in compelling legalese, liaise with other legal entities, etc. I'm engaged in most of these tasks at some level or another and work directly with three different attorneys in a support (sometimes lead) role but it's only about 25% of what I do. I feel competent in working and performing in a lot of these property and contract law specific areas but lacking formal legal training and exposure (obviously) precludes me from being able to engage and be effective in all areas.

[BigZuck]

What kinds of transactional work are you outsourcing that you think you might be able to handle yourself?
Law school doesn't really teach you any practical skills. You wouldn't be any more equipped to write a contract, nor would you be any more equipped to negotiate a contract. You'd also (presumably) be negotiating with/against people who have experience doing that type of thing. Basically if you don't have any training doing that kind of work (either from working at a firm or working under an experienced lawyer at your company) I think there's a pretty strong chance you might be a net negative in that process rather than providing added value. I don't know though, maybe you are highly involved with that stuff now and you just need the JD to rubber stamp things.

Our attorneys draft and review complex contracts, leases and purchase agreements, loan mods, structure financing, they work through entitlement and resolve title issues, handle disputes, provide general advisement on governance, defensibility and best practices, set up legal entities, correspond in compelling legalese, liaise with other legal entities, etc. I'm engaged in most of these tasks at some level or another and work directly with three different attorneys in a support (sometimes lead) role but it's only about 25% of what I do. I feel competent in working and performing in a lot of these property and contract law specific areas but lacking formal legal training and exposure (obviously) precludes me from being able to engage and be effective in all areas.

Ok but again where is the value add to the company if you have a JD? You have people doing this stuff already, how are you going to go above and beyond? With your legal training? You won't get any in law school. Where will you get it? From the lawyers at your company? How can they teach you to do something they can't do themselves?

[DJDJTX]

Ok but again where is the value add to the company if you have a JD? You have people doing this stuff already, how are you going to go above and beyond? With your legal training? You won't get any in law school. Where will you get it? From the lawyers at your company? How can they teach you to do something they can't do themselves?

Add value comes from bringing the legal stamp in house and eliminating the $300hr fees + points paid on multi-million dollar transactions to multiple attorneys. Again, in theory, with industry knowledge I possess and experience with these processes coupled with a law degree/license, the company efforts are streamlined and savings realized. Those savings are redistributed to the ownership, who then compensates me. That would assume that I provide legal services at a discounted rate compared to what an outside attorney bills.

[lymenheimer]

Ok but again where is the value add to the company if you have a JD? You have people doing this stuff already, how are you going to go above and beyond? With your legal training? You won't get any in law school. Where will you get it? From the lawyers at your company? How can they teach you to do something they can't do themselves?

Add value comes from bringing the legal stamp in house and eliminating the $300hr fees + points paid on multi-million dollar transactions to multiple attorneys. Again, in theory, with industry knowledge I possess and experience with these processes coupled with a law degree/license, the company efforts are streamlined and savings realized. Those savings are redistributed to the ownership, who then compensates me. That would assume that I provide legal services at a discounted rate compared to what an outside attorney bills.

Yea. everyone understands how money works. The question was regarding the legal services you would provide, because you said "we outsource legal stuff" then you said "our attorneys draft blah blah blah" which implies that you already have inhouse attorneys. So:
1) does your company have inhouse legal?
if no:
2) how are you going to learn how to do all that if you have nobody to train you?

[DJDJTX]

They're not in-house, they're outsourced solos. what part about "drafting blah blah blah" implies they're in-house? Just curious.

I've worked in my industry for 20 years so I have a good grasp on a lot of what they do. But there is plenty I don't know obviously so, that's something I need to figure out; how to get that training while staying employed where I am now. I acknowledge that the attorneys we work with know more than I do. Our main counsel is a 3rd generation UT Law grad/attorney semi retired ex Biglaw partner. He's a beast. I have worked with him closely on numerous deals and have learned a great deal from him. He offered to write a LOR for my LS application if I could find one to go to. The other two attorneys we work with are really not that impressive. They're primarily the ones I'd like to be able to replace.

[Nebby]

Seems like a waste of money unless your job is going to pay for your JD schooling.

[lymenheimer]

"Our attorneys". Was a late night I admit, but your phrasing seemed unclear.

[BigZuck]

You said "our" attorneys, I read that to mean in house as well.

Again, if you just need the JD to rubber stamp things and you're already equipped to write/negotiate contracts then great. If you need training on how to write/negotiate contracts and to be a lawyer AND you want to stay at your current job AND there is no one there to train you, then DO NOT DO THIS PROGRAM. You absolutely, 100% will not know how to be a lawyer when you come out of it. You will not be a value add. Your lunch will be eaten if you have to negotiate against good, experienced oil and gas attorneys.

Go if you need to add the "JD" after your name. Do not go if you expect the program itself to turn you into a lawyer.

[DJDJTX]

I concede use of "our" was misleading. We farm so much work to them it feels like they're in-house sometimes.

This is all good insight, thank you.