Top Law Schools

Good morning all. New poster here so forgive me if topics like these have been asked in the past and thanks in advance for any insight.

I'm going to law school to do public interest, broadly defined. Basically, I know I don't want to do big law. I'm coming from finance and have a good sense of what big law looks like and just know that this is not for me. Interested in possibly clerking, doing work for the likes of ACLU, maybe public defense, etc.

Curious what people think about the choice between NYU at full price and the likes of Cornell, UCLA, Wash U, Vanderbilt with 75-100% tuition scholarships.

The geographic considerations are complicated and I'll need to figure that out for myself but more curious whether it's worth paying for the additional prestige/access/opportunities/etc that would come with a degree from NYU relative to those lower ranked places. In my mind, I was ready to basically pull out all the stops for a T3 school because I feel like the pedigree and access to unicorn opportunities are worth it. But should I think about NYU the same way? Is the degree from there worth the extra ~$180K?

notsonotorious wrote:Good morning all. New poster here so forgive me if topics like these have been asked in the past and thanks in advance for any insight.

I'm going to law school to do public interest, broadly defined. Basically, I know I don't want to do big law. I'm coming from finance and have a good sense of what big law looks like and just know that this is not for me. Interested in possibly clerking, doing work for the likes of ACLU, maybe public defense, etc.

Curious what people think about the choice between NYU at full price and the likes of Cornell, UCLA, Wash U, Vanderbilt with 75-100% tuition scholarships.

The geographic considerations are complicated and I'll need to figure that out for myself but more curious whether it's worth paying for the additional prestige/access/opportunities/etc that would come with a degree from NYU relative to those lower ranked places. In my mind, I was ready to basically pull out all the stops for a T3 school because I feel like the pedigree and access to unicorn opportunities are worth it. But should I think about NYU the same way? Is the degree from there worth the extra ~$180K?

Cornell with full tuition > NYU at sticker

If you have that option go with it

jjcorvino wrote:
Cornell with full tuition > NYU at sticker

If you have that option go with it

0L disclaimer, but yeah, this. Seeing as we know nothing about your geographic preference, Cornell gives you the best national reach, and a 75% or more tuition scholarship at Cornell is a good deal.

Cornell.

Rigo wrote:Cornell.

but ithaca

Colonel_funkadunk wrote:

Rigo wrote:Cornell.

but ithaca

It's gorges!

Malarkey wrote:

jjcorvino wrote:
Cornell with full tuition > NYU at sticker

If you have that option go with it

0L disclaimer, but yeah, this. Seeing as we know nothing about your geographic preference, Cornell gives you the best national reach, and a 75% or more tuition scholarship at Cornell is a good deal.

Should I be worried that Cornell's employment stats in public interest and clerking at way worse than NYU? The percentage at Cornell is 13% vs 20% at NYU, not to mention the raw numbers given the class sizes (23 vs 100).

notsonotorious wrote:

Malarkey wrote:

jjcorvino wrote:
Cornell with full tuition > NYU at sticker

If you have that option go with it

0L disclaimer, but yeah, this. Seeing as we know nothing about your geographic preference, Cornell gives you the best national reach, and a 75% or more tuition scholarship at Cornell is a good deal.

Should I be worried that Cornell's employment stats in public interest and clerking at way worse than NYU? The percentage at Cornell is 13% vs 20% at NYU, not to mention the raw numbers given the class sizes (23 vs 100).

NYU is pretty PI focused, so they naturally have more people go into it. I don't think there is too big of a difference there in reality. I think a bit of that is self-selection.

jjcorvino wrote:

notsonotorious wrote:

Malarkey wrote:

jjcorvino wrote:
Cornell with full tuition > NYU at sticker

If you have that option go with it

0L disclaimer, but yeah, this. Seeing as we know nothing about your geographic preference, Cornell gives you the best national reach, and a 75% or more tuition scholarship at Cornell is a good deal.

Should I be worried that Cornell's employment stats in public interest and clerking at way worse than NYU? The percentage at Cornell is 13% vs 20% at NYU, not to mention the raw numbers given the class sizes (23 vs 100).

NYU is pretty PI focused, so they naturally have more people go into it. I don't think there is too big of a difference there in reality. I think a bit of that is self-selection.

I don't know about Cornell's clerkships being "way worse" than NYU. Looking at LST, Cornell's federal clerkship percentage looks like it's around 4.5% and NYU's is 5.6%. That's a difference of about one percentage point. Sure there's something there, but Cornell's yearly class size is under 200, so that's a matter of 2 people.

Additionally, even if we pretend that NYU's public interest percentages are entirely devoid of self-selection (which they aren't), I still don't think the difference is worth $180k.

Keep in mind that NYU's LRAP program would likely cover most or all of your debt if you go into public interest after you graduate. You should look into the specifics of the program, but if you are working for the ACLU or something like, you should be covered (i.e., they will pay your loans off for you as long as you work there).

Box11RowG wrote:Keep in mind that NYU's LRAP program would likely cover most or all of your debt if you go into public interest after you graduate. You should look into the specifics of the program, but if you are working for the ACLU or something like, you should be covered (i.e., they will pay your loans off for you as long as you work there).

This seems pretty important here. Cornell would be a sounder choice if biglaw was the goal but, if you're totally committed to PI, it seems to make more sense to prioritize the best LRAP. NYU will cover all your loan payments if you're making under $80,000 (which you almost certainly will in a PI position). On the off-chance you go above that, you'll pay 40% on each dollar over $80,000, so you still won't have to worry about dipping below that $80,000 mark due to loan payments.

Dante181 wrote:

Box11RowG wrote:Keep in mind that NYU's LRAP program would likely cover most or all of your debt if you go into public interest after you graduate. You should look into the specifics of the program, but if you are working for the ACLU or something like, you should be covered (i.e., they will pay your loans off for you as long as you work there).

This seems pretty important here. Cornell would be a sounder choice if biglaw was the goal but, if you're totally committed to PI, it seems to make more sense to prioritize the best LRAP. NYU will cover all your loan payments if you're making under $80,000 (which you almost certainly will in a PI position). On the off-chance you go above that, you'll pay 40% on each dollar over $80,000, so you still won't have to worry about dipping below that $80,000 mark due to loan payments.

Cornell's LRAP is comparable for under $80,000 salaries and would also cover your debt (which would be considerably less than from NYU). This isn't really a compelling reason to choose NYU.

What's with this thread treating Cornell as part of UCLA/Vandy etc tier. Georgetown's fall is an exceptional situation but the rest of the former Top 14 is still a significant jump up from the 15-20 crowd. Cornell$$$ vs NYU sticker is very different from Vandy $$$ vs NYU sticker

Dante181 wrote:

Box11RowG wrote:Keep in mind that NYU's LRAP program would likely cover most or all of your debt if you go into public interest after you graduate. You should look into the specifics of the program, but if you are working for the ACLU or something like, you should be covered (i.e., they will pay your loans off for you as long as you work there).

This seems pretty important here. Cornell would be a sounder choice if biglaw was the goal but, if you're totally committed to PI, it seems to make more sense to prioritize the best LRAP. NYU will cover all your loan payments if you're making under $80,000 (which you almost certainly will in a PI position). On the off-chance you go above that, you'll pay 40% on each dollar over $80,000, so you still won't have to worry about dipping below that $80,000 mark due to loan payments.

Just to make sure the program is being portrayed correctly, that particular version only applies to PSLF jobs. The repayment structure and cutoff points are different for non-PSLF jobs, which may become more relevant if the school has to switch back to that plan for everyone (in the event that PSLF is cancelled/limited).

That said, I completely disagree that the difference in PI numbers is self-selection. I think that this is a much closer choice than has been portrayed earlier in the thread, because of the strong LRAP and much, much stronger PI resources at NYU. If the OP is 100% committed to PI (as in absolutely no way in hell they're going into private practice), then I'd pick the school with the stronger PI reputation and network, because LRAP is covering the debt on the back end.

A lot could happen in 10 years though. That sticker debt is a huge burden and limitation even if wanting PI.

Leliana wrote:

Dante181 wrote:

Box11RowG wrote:Keep in mind that NYU's LRAP program would likely cover most or all of your debt if you go into public interest after you graduate. You should look into the specifics of the program, but if you are working for the ACLU or something like, you should be covered (i.e., they will pay your loans off for you as long as you work there).

This seems pretty important here. Cornell would be a sounder choice if biglaw was the goal but, if you're totally committed to PI, it seems to make more sense to prioritize the best LRAP. NYU will cover all your loan payments if you're making under $80,000 (which you almost certainly will in a PI position). On the off-chance you go above that, you'll pay 40% on each dollar over $80,000, so you still won't have to worry about dipping below that $80,000 mark due to loan payments.

Cornell's LRAP is comparable for under $80,000 salaries and would also cover your debt (which would be considerably less than from NYU). This isn't really a compelling reason to choose NYU.

The reason to choose NYU would be the better opportunities it gives you at effectively the same price, if you really know you are committed to PI. And for a lot of PI areas, NYU is the best law school to go to (this is coming from an SLS grad). People going into PI choose NYU over HLS, YLS, SLS every year. I don't think this is a close call if you are committed to PI. If there is a strong likelihood of going into a firm or other non-LRAP covered work, then the sticker price should play more of a role. But it's true that a lot can happen in 10 years!

I would be careful basing very expensive financial decisions on a federal program (PSLF) that was already threatened with the chopping block under a Democrat administration that wasn't even having its pants sued off by Public Interest Lawyers. Just sayin. If you can go to a somewhat comparable school for six less figures of debt, I would do that. In this situation I wouldn't cavalierly assume that the programs that exist now for PI repayment will be around in 13 years. Unless you're feelin lucky.

Signed,

Someone whose future hinges on hoping no one in the current administration notices what PSLF is and how much it costs

No. Don't borrow an insane amount of debt for NYU. Go to Cornell.

Wait, do you even have these scholarships or is this an academic exercise?

If you have the schollies then please post the amount you will oweat repayment

Box11RowG wrote:

Leliana wrote:

Dante181 wrote:

Box11RowG wrote:Keep in mind that NYU's LRAP program would likely cover most or all of your debt if you go into public interest after you graduate. You should look into the specifics of the program, but if you are working for the ACLU or something like, you should be covered (i.e., they will pay your loans off for you as long as you work there).

This seems pretty important here. Cornell would be a sounder choice if biglaw was the goal but, if you're totally committed to PI, it seems to make more sense to prioritize the best LRAP. NYU will cover all your loan payments if you're making under $80,000 (which you almost certainly will in a PI position). On the off-chance you go above that, you'll pay 40% on each dollar over $80,000, so you still won't have to worry about dipping below that $80,000 mark due to loan payments.

Cornell's LRAP is comparable for under $80,000 salaries and would also cover your debt (which would be considerably less than from NYU). This isn't really a compelling reason to choose NYU.

The reason to choose NYU would be the better opportunities it gives you at effectively the same price, if you really know you are committed to PI. And for a lot of PI areas, NYU is the best law school to go to (this is coming from an SLS grad). People going into PI choose NYU over HLS, YLS, SLS every year. I don't think this is a close call if you are committed to PI. If there is a strong likelihood of going into a firm or other non-LRAP covered work, then the sticker price should play more of a role. But it's true that a lot can happen in 10 years!

Got it. You and cavalier make good points about the networking/resources for PI at NYU. I will say I was concerned about the PI resources when I visited Cornell. (0L disclaimer.) But I personally would still take a full ride there over sticker at NYU because of what Rigo said. That has to do with my own personal comfort level with debt/relying on LRAP though which is different for everyone.

arose928 wrote:I would be careful basing very expensive financial decisions on a federal program (PSLF) that was already threatened with the chopping block under a Democrat administration that wasn't even having its pants sued off by public interest lawyers. Just sayin. If you can go to a somewhat comparable school for six less figures of debt, I would do that. In this situation I wouldn't cavalierly assume that the programs that exist now for PI repayment will be around in 13 years. Unless you're feelin lucky.

Signed,

Someone whose future hinges on hoping no one in the current administration notices what PSLF is and how much it costs

I mean, it sounds like they're still taking on some debt at Cornell, so they're going to have to rely on LRAP to some degree. The difference is that I know NYU's LRAP will just switch over to the non-integrated plan in the event of PSLF being taken away (because the program was in place before PSLF and Financial Aid has repeatedly assured students that LRAP will continue to cover them in that event). I don't know that Cornell has a non-PSLF version of the program or whether they've commented on the issue.

Also you could exit the workforce or take a non-PI job year 8.
$300k and negative amortization is a big thing to take on.

If you put in your ten years and all is forgiven, that's dandy. You very well could not pay a penny of your debt, but there is a risk you could be paying back all of it.
Definitely a consideration.
That being said, I can only think of 3-4 schools it would be better to take our sticker for PI at, so NYU isn't an absolute no-go.

Your personal risk/debt aversion and tolerance will be the biggest part the this decision.

Rigo wrote:Also you could exit the workforce or take a non-PI job year 8.
$300k and negative amortization is a big thing to take on.

Yeah, this is the biggest concern, and it's why Columbia has a better program by giving their students an option to just use a 10-year full repayment schedule instead of relying on PSLF for any PSLF-eligible job.

Po$eidon wrote:What's with this thread treating Cornell as part of UCLA/Vandy etc tier. Georgetown's fall is an exceptional situation but the rest of the former Top 14 is still a significant jump up from the 15-20 crowd. Cornell$$$ vs NYU sticker is very different from Vandy $$$ vs NYU sticker

Good to know, thanks! Reason for the grouping is merely that that's where I got in!

Rigo wrote:Also you could exit the workforce or take a non-PI job year 8.
$300k and negative amortization is a big thing to take on.

If you put in your ten years and all is forgiven, that's dandy. You very well could not pay a penny of your debt, but there is a risk you could be paying back all of it.
Definitely a consideration.
That being said, I can only think of 3-4 schools it would be better to take our sticker for PI at, so NYU isn't an absolute no-go.

Your personal risk/debt aversion and tolerance will be the biggest part the this decision.

CR

What's the debt load at Cornell?

Sticker at NYU or any law school is crazy IMO.

Cornell 100% (which is not at all the same tier as Vandy/Wash U/UCLA).

Sticker for PI would be an extremely risky move.