Outcome from W&M - no ties Forum

[spqr351]

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[trebekismyhero]

Most likely outcome is making $50-60k at a small law firm in VA

[KPUSN07]

I applied to W&M on a lark, and they offered me a pretty substantial scholarship. I looked more into the school and have liked what I've seen.

My question is, what are the outcomes for a student with no VA ties? I wouldn't mind living in regular Virginia or NOVA. Is Big Fed accessible to W&M grads? Is it more accessible from W&M than it would be from my home-state T30 across the country?

My uGPA pretty much precludes the T14 with money, even if my LSAT could maybe get me in at some of the lower ones. As I have zero desire for Big Law, a T30 with a scholarship is my best option.

How did you score on the LSAT?

[mrtux45]

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[trebekismyhero]

I think Trebek makes prospects sound bleaker than they really are. Check this link:

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/wm/sals/more/

Obviously W&M isn't keeping pace with T14 schools in terms of placement and starting salaries. But if you went there with minimal debt and worked your ass off for good grades, I'd be willing to bet things would work out.

Disclaimer: I'm a 0L, so the above advice is the best of my understanding.

Their 50% median salary for bar passage jobs is $65,000. Also, everyone will be working their ass off in law school. That alone won't guarantee that you get good grades. W&M is fine if you want to be in VA and have minimal debt. People just have to understand that big law isn't likely. Of course it can happen, but you can't count on being top 25% let alone top 10%.

- Lawyer in biglaw that did not go to a t14

[BigZuck]

Dude 0Ls shouldn't go around saying "Just do get good grades bro"

[cavalier1138]

Dude 0Ls shouldn't go around saying "Just do get good grades bro"

Can this be the forum slogan?

[zot1]

I think Trebek makes prospects sound bleaker than they really are. Check this link:

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/wm/sals/more/

Obviously W&M isn't keeping pace with T14 schools in terms of placement and starting salaries. But if you went there with minimal debt and worked your ass off for good grades, I'd be willing to bet things would work out.

Disclaimer: I'm a 0L, so the above advice is the best of my understanding.

A lot easier said than done.

You generally have a shot a BigFed if you go to a top 50 school, are in the top 30% of your class, have law review or moot court experience, have additional relevant experience, or have something else incredible about you that overcomes any of the aforementioned factors.

The problem is that even if you manage to get the above, you will still compete with smiliarly situated applicants for a small number of jobs. Some agencies take 10 or less candidates per year. There might be freezes in the future. We might get into WWIII and get drafted.

My point is that you shouldn't pick a school based on potential outcome. But rather go to a place that will maximize your employment placements (whether that's BigFed or not) with the least amount of debt.

[lavarman84]

People just have to understand that big law isn't likely. Of course it can happen, but you can't count on being top 25% let alone top 10%.

- Lawyer in biglaw that did not go to a t14

As I have zero desire for Big Law, a T30 with a scholarship is my best option.

[trebekismyhero]

People just have to understand that big law isn't likely. Of course it can happen, but you can't count on being top 25% let alone top 10%.

- Lawyer in biglaw that did not go to a t14

As I have zero desire for Big Law, a T30 with a scholarship is my best option.

Same holds true for BigFed as Big Law. It was about the likeliest outcome would be

[spqr351]

Having experienced people debate over your circumstances is the best part of this site. I appreciate all the input.

[spqr351]

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[BigZuck]

I just got back from visiting a family friend in his office at ASU. I told him my dilemma choosing between ASU and UA, and he told me that the debt differential between the schools makes no question in his mind: ASU (60k@UA vs. 75k@ASU). He told me ASU is on the rise, and he expects it to stay in the T30 in the future, maybe yo-yo-ing between 20 and 30 like BU and Emory. He also said that UA is desperate, and he expects it to take a huge dive in the near future, like W&L and UIUC. One of the biggest things he plugged was ASU's location in downtown Phoenix, as that's where 90% of the the good jobs are... he said that OCI at ASU is pretty good for the top 25%, and the top 75% usually have no problem finding a job if they hustle, and the new location already seems to be making a difference. As to how Phoenix-area employers big and small look at ASU vs the T14, he said the T6 have the same access to the Phoenix market as ASU, but the lower T14 don't come anywhere near it. He even went so far as to say that the bottom 50% of HYSCCN classes are no better off in AZ than the top ~25% at ASU, and in many ways are in a worse spot due to lack of access.

It's nice to have an office like four blocks away from the school, so on slow days like today I could just pop on over and look around. This guy is a family friend, and I believe him. As he said, he "doesn't get any commission from this."

Lots of this doesn't matter even if true. I also suspect that lots of it is not true.

Don't go to ASU if you want to work at a big firm.

[zot1]

Well, ASU is fine if OP is from AZ and wants to work there after graduation.

[lavarman84]

People just have to understand that big law isn't likely. Of course it can happen, but you can't count on being top 25% let alone top 10%.

- Lawyer in biglaw that did not go to a t14

As I have zero desire for Big Law, a T30 with a scholarship is my best option.

Same holds true for BigFed as Big Law. It was about the likeliest outcome would be

I wouldn't call BigFed a likely outcome anywhere. Thus, I'd advise the OP to go to the law school where he gets the best scholarship offer in a region he'd like to practice in.

OP, if W&M is offering you the lowest cost and you want to practice in Virginia, it's an option strongly worth considering.

[BigZuck]

Well, ASU is fine if OP is from AZ and wants to work there after graduation.

Yeah, of course. As long as it's an appropriate cost.

[zot1]

Well, ASU is fine if OP is from AZ and wants to work there after graduation.

Yeah, of course. As long as it's an appropriate cost.

Of course.

[cavalier1138]

I just got back from visiting a family friend in his office at ASU. I told him my dilemma choosing between ASU and UA, and he told me that the debt differential between the schools makes no question in his mind: ASU (60k@UA vs. 75k@ASU). He told me ASU is on the rise, and he expects it to stay in the T30 in the future, maybe yo-yo-ing between 20 and 30 like BU and Emory. He also said that UA is desperate, and he expects it to take a huge dive in the near future, like W&L and UIUC. One of the biggest things he plugged was ASU's location in downtown Phoenix, as that's where 90% of the the good jobs are... he said that OCI at ASU is pretty good for the top 25%, and the top 75% usually have no problem finding a job if they hustle, and the new location already seems to be making a difference. As to how Phoenix-area employers big and small look at ASU vs the T14, he said the T6 have the same access to the Phoenix market as ASU, but the lower T14 don't come anywhere near it. He even went so far as to say that the bottom 50% of HYSCCN classes are no better off in AZ than the top ~25% at ASU, and in many ways are in a worse spot due to lack of access.

It's nice to have an office like four blocks away from the school, so on slow days like today I could just pop on over and look around. This guy is a family friend, and I believe him. As he said, he "doesn't get any commission from this."

Wait, how did we end up in Phoenix?

Also, there's a reason your friend doesn't get any commission from his speculation. Future rankings are meaningless. School reputation and job placement is what matters, so you should not be choosing a school based on the assumption that 5-10 years from now, it's going to be a real powerhouse. That will not benefit you in the slightest.

[spqr351]

Wait, how did we end up in Phoenix?

Well, I meant to send this as a PM to somebody else, so this is certainly very embarrassing.

[spqr351]

Well, ASU is fine if OP is from AZ and wants to work there after graduation.

Yeah, of course. As long as it's an appropriate cost.

Of course.

It is at a good cost, and I'm from Arizona. Also I'm embarrassed because this was meant as a PM. At least this accidental post wasn't something actually harmful.

[trebekismyhero]

People just have to understand that big law isn't likely. Of course it can happen, but you can't count on being top 25% let alone top 10%.

- Lawyer in biglaw that did not go to a t14

As I have zero desire for Big Law, a T30 with a scholarship is my best option.

Same holds true for BigFed as Big Law. It was about the likeliest outcome would be

I wouldn't call BigFed a likely outcome anywhere. Thus, I'd advise the OP to go to the law school where he gets the best scholarship offer in a region he'd like to practice in.

OP, if W&M is offering you the lowest cost and you want to practice in Virginia, it's an option strongly worth considering.

Did you read what I wrote? That is basically what I and everyone else said. The other stuff was in response to a post from the 0L.

[lavarman84]

People just have to understand that big law isn't likely. Of course it can happen, but you can't count on being top 25% let alone top 10%.

- Lawyer in biglaw that did not go to a t14

As I have zero desire for Big Law, a T30 with a scholarship is my best option.

Same holds true for BigFed as Big Law. It was about the likeliest outcome would be

I wouldn't call BigFed a likely outcome anywhere. Thus, I'd advise the OP to go to the law school where he gets the best scholarship offer in a region he'd like to practice in.

OP, if W&M is offering you the lowest cost and you want to practice in Virginia, it's an option strongly worth considering.

Did you read what I wrote? That is basically what I and everyone else said. The other stuff was in response to a post from the 0L.

Yes. I read what you wrote. I read the entire thread. You gave helpful answers to OP in your first couple of posts. Then the conservation devolved into some irrelevant argument with a 0L over biglaw.

I responded that biglaw wasn't relevant here and gave OP advice.(mirroring the advice you and z0t gave earlier)

[BigZuck]

Can confirm lawman taking the conservation to the next level. I checked the tape.