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Need help choosing between Penn State 50% scholly and Arizona State no scholly. Both good schools. Will have to pay out of state tuition for ASU first year. Is a #25 ranking that much greater than #86?

Tommy1984 wrote:Need help choosing between Penn State 50% scholly and Arizona State no scholly. Both good schools. Will have to pay out of state tuition for ASU first year. Is a #25 ranking that much greater than #86?

I would ask yourself where would you rather practice law? I can't speak entirely for ASU (but I can assume based on its ranking) that it places primarily in Arizona and the Phoenix area? Law School Transperncy has good info for that. However, I know that PSU will place you primarily in Pennsylvania. Moreover, it won't even place you in a favorable part of PA. I don't know many PSU law grads in the Philly area (although there are a ton of PSU undergrad alumns if that means anything). From what I understand, PSU plays mostly in Harrisburg or the center of the State.

I don't know enough about ASU and their employment prospects and such (again, LST is a good resource for that) but I don't trust Penn State law. They purchased Dickinson so the vast alumni network they boast is not really PSU alums but Dickinson alums. Second, the location is really bad. State College is in the middle of nowhere. Even Harrisburg is not that favorable of a legal market (unless you're into gov't stuff). If you like Pennsylvania, then you are better off going to Pitt or Temple (assuming you can't get into Penn).

I hope this is helpful.

Classic retake scenario right here.

Neither are good options. Study and score higher and reapply broadly so you receive a spectrum of options instead of some weird binary ASU/Dickinson pair of options.

Recommend you "thirsty" read these forums, OP, before you make a financially irrecoverable decision and attend one of these schools at these price points.

Also, we're going to need your LSAT/GPA/career goals.

Don't go to ASU unless you won't mind living in AZ.

<-- ASU grad


e: also, don't bank on getting in-state residency after your first year. I was in-state so I didn't have to deal with it but I know a good number of my classmates were jerked around during the process over stupid things.

nick417 wrote:

Tommy1984 wrote:Need help choosing between Penn State 50% scholly and Arizona State no scholly. Both good schools. Will have to pay out of state tuition for ASU first year. Is a #25 ranking that much greater than #86?

If you like Pennsylvania, then you are better off going to Pitt or Temple (assuming you can't get into Penn).

What do you think about Villanova for practicing in PA/Philly? They have ridiculously deep pockets with scholarships (the amount of full-rides that they give out is pretty crazy - a 3.3/158 got me an 85% offer) and their LST reports for the past 3 or-so years has a slightly higher employment % than Temple, albeit also a slightly higher underemployed rate.

All-in-all, I would agree with retake for financial reasons,

bmathers wrote:

nick417 wrote:

Tommy1984 wrote:Need help choosing between Penn State 50% scholly and Arizona State no scholly. Both good schools. Will have to pay out of state tuition for ASU first year. Is a #25 ranking that much greater than #86?

If you like Pennsylvania, then you are better off going to Pitt or Temple (assuming you can't get into Penn).

What do you think about Villanova for practicing in PA/Philly? They have ridiculously deep pockets with scholarships (the amount of full-rides that they give out is pretty crazy - a 3.3/158 got me an 85% offer) and their LST reports for the past 3 or-so years has a slightly higher employment % than Temple, albeit also a slightly higher underemployed rate.

All-in-all, I would agree with retake for financial reasons,

Two thoughts:

1. Temple is cheaper than Villanova (especially if you are in state). If you have a scholarship from Villanova, that can neutralize the cost difference.

2. In Philly, Villanova has a lot of high power attorneys. Back in the 80s and 90s, Villanova law was considered almost on par with UPenn. I have talked to a couple of attorneys who chose Nova over Penn Law (again in the 80s and early 90s, not now). However, Temple has a huge alumni base in Philly too. Temple is the higher ranked school. And Temple is well known for its good trial ad program. My thought is Temple is more for litigators and Nova is more for corporate (which makes sense when you consider Temple is in a rough and dangerous neighborhood whereas Nova is on the main line and a very ritzy area).

If all things were equal, I would choose Temple over Nova. But that is me. If you can get a good scholarship and can keep your debt under $50K, Temple and Nova are both solid options in Philly. Not saying these schools are perfect (UPenn is obviously the hands down winner in the Philly market).

bmathers wrote:

nick417 wrote:

Tommy1984 wrote:Need help choosing between Penn State 50% scholly and Arizona State no scholly. Both good schools. Will have to pay out of state tuition for ASU first year. Is a #25 ranking that much greater than #86?

If you like Pennsylvania, then you are better off going to Pitt or Temple (assuming you can't get into Penn).

What do you think about Villanova for practicing in PA/Philly? They have ridiculously deep pockets with scholarships (the amount of full-rides that they give out is pretty crazy - a 3.3/158 got me an 85% offer) and their LST reports for the past 3 or-so years has a slightly higher employment % than Temple, albeit also a slightly higher underemployed rate.

All-in-all, I would agree with retake for financial reasons,

That Villanova would shell out free rides like candy to such a large % of the class should be a red flag, IMO. If you look at their entering class data on LST, their class quality has dropped significantly judging from median stats in the past few years (much more so than schools like Temple and Penn State). Villanova Law's dean also jumped ship in June to a small college in Hawaii.

By contrast, Temple has been rising in the rankings, and is now technically T1. Also, whatever "boost" Villanova had in the Philly corporate legal world in the 80's is gone now... Temple actually has better Clerk + Big Law stats.

Pomeranian wrote:

bmathers wrote:

nick417 wrote:

Tommy1984 wrote:Need help choosing between Penn State 50% scholly and Arizona State no scholly. Both good schools. Will have to pay out of state tuition for ASU first year. Is a #25 ranking that much greater than #86?

If you like Pennsylvania, then you are better off going to Pitt or Temple (assuming you can't get into Penn).

What do you think about Villanova for practicing in PA/Philly? They have ridiculously deep pockets with scholarships (the amount of full-rides that they give out is pretty crazy - a 3.3/158 got me an 85% offer) and their LST reports for the past 3 or-so years has a slightly higher employment % than Temple, albeit also a slightly higher underemployed rate.

All-in-all, I would agree with retake for financial reasons,

That Villanova would shell out free rides like candy to such a large % of the class should be a red flag, IMO. If you look at their entering class data on LST, their class quality has dropped significantly judging from median stats in the past few years (much more so than schools like Temple and Penn State). Villanova Law's dean also jumped ship in June to a small college in Hawaii.

By contrast, Temple has been rising in the rankings, and is now technically T1. Also, whatever "boost" Villanova had in the Philly corporate legal world in the 80's is gone now... Temple actually has better Clerk + Big Law stats.

Valid points to consider. It seems like most schools around the ranking of a Villanova have seen a drop in class quality over the past handful of years, as the number of law applicants has decreased. Surprisingly, their employment % on LST has gone slightly up over the past few years. Penn State Law (not Dickinson) has been offering full-rides for similar stats too, which that is a red flag, IMO. I love PSU, but State College is a horrible location for law school, IMO.

What do you think of Seton Hall with a large ship? Their LST employment % seems surprisingly high for a school with their medians and ranking.

Rankings are meaningless, just focus on getting the job that you want, in the place that you want, at an appropriate price.

yeah what do you want to do? if you want to live in zona, ASU. I'd probably go ASU without any additional info.

ASU gives you some access to Phoenix, Tucson, Denver, Inland California, Albuquerque, and Las Vegas.

Not a lot of BigLaw in AZ, a lot of firms range between 25-100 attorneys. Starting wages run between 45-125 depending on where you place. Phoenix is a heavy litigation market, not so much transactional work, but that's improving. In my experience about 30% of the class will do very well, the next 50% will get into small law/Government, some might lateral from small law to mid law. 20% or so will struggle as they are competing with the top students from Arizona Summit.

The school is nice, it has a lot of resources, and certainly more than any other AZ Law School. That's not a dig at UA, it's just a MUCH smaller and localized program.

I don't know a lot about PSU so I thought I'd offer this counter perspective.