Advice Needed - M/P/V/D at sticker? Forum

[bokampers]

I need some opinions plz.

Applied extremely late this cycle with a 3.4/3.5 and a 165/166 and was waitlisted at almost every t14 I applied to. Retook the LSAT in June and bumped my score up to the 168/169 range.

I just randomly got into one of M/P/V/D off of the waitlist after updating them. The school I got into has essentially been my dream/target school due to regional concerns for a few years now. Here's the kicker - they don't have any merit aid for me.

So now I'm faced with a conflict. Do I just suck it up and enjoy the PAYE train post-grad ? or do I sit out another year and reapply with hopes of $$$?

If anything was guaranteed I'd obviously sit out, but I fear that the school may get salty with me and not readmit me next cycle, much less with a scholarship. I expressed alot of interest in attending this cycle, and now I'm concerned that if I don't attend I'll be burning that bridge.

And, even if I DO get a generous scholly (lets say like 120k somehow), my debt at graduation would still be around 200-220k when you factor in my UG loans (30-40k). I may very well end up on PAYE either way...wouldn't that make all this scholly talk kinda moot?

Opinions? Experiences?

ETA: LSAT takes are maxed out until 06/17. Rather not wait 2+ cycles

[Yeezus Wept]

Why don't you just, ya know, retake in October for a 170+ and then reapply. You probably will get some scholarship money, and fewer loans is always better. If you do end up deciding you just want to do PAYE, you will probably get into one of CCN which will give you better prospects. I know you probably don't want to hear it, but retaking is TCR here.

[bokampers]

Why don't you just, ya know, retake in October for a 170+ and then reapply. You probably will get some scholarship money, and fewer loans is always better. If you do end up deciding you just want to do PAYE, you will probably get into one of CCN which will give you better prospects. I know you probably don't want to hear it, but retaking is TCR here.

I wish that were an option but I'm maxed out until June 2017, which would mean two additional cycles off with no guarantee of anything.

[acr]

I need some opinions plz.

Applied extremely late this cycle with a 3.4/3.5 and a 165/166 and was waitlisted at almost every t14 I applied to. Retook the LSAT in June and bumped my score up to the 168/169 range.

I just randomly got into one of M/P/V/D off of the waitlist after updating them. The school I got into has essentially been my dream/target school due to regional concerns for a few years now. Here's the kicker - they don't have any merit aid for me.

So now I'm faced with a conflict. Do I just suck it up and enjoy the PAYE train post-grad ? or do I sit out another year and reapply with hopes of $$$?

If anything was guaranteed I'd obviously sit out, but I fear that the school may get salty with me and not readmit me next cycle, much less with a scholarship. I expressed alot of interest in attending this cycle, and now I'm concerned that if I don't attend I'll be burning that bridge.

And, even if I DO get a generous scholly (lets say like 120k somehow), my debt at graduation would still be around 200-220k when you factor in my UG loans (30-40k). I may very well end up on PAYE either way...wouldn't that make all this scholly talk kinda moot?

Opinions? Experiences?

ETA: LSAT takes are maxed out until 06/17. Rather not wait 2+ cycles

To me, paying sticker for any of those schools would be insane. These fora are littered with miserable graduates because of their big law jobs. If you're not absolutely sure that you can handle the big law grind, then I don't think it's wise for you to lock yourself into a career path that you might hate just to service debt. If you understand--and if you're comfortable--with what over $300,000 in debt and big law would entail, then go for it, but it's not a choice that I personally would be comfortable making. I know it's your dream school, but what will that shiny M/P/V/D degree be worth to you when you're shoveling shit to your lenders for 20 years?

Not a direct answer, I know, but that's just my opinion.

If your goal is PI or PSLF jobs, then it's a different story.

[lymenheimer]

Kinda depends on the school if you're deadset on going to law school without retaking. V/P you probably won't get money from next cycle (I'm assuming you're not URM), but M/D might give a small scholly...Nothing near 120k, though.

[bokampers]

To me, paying sticker for any of those schools would be insane. These fora are littered with miserable graduates because of their big law jobs. If you're not absolutely sure that you can handle the big law grind, then I don't think it's wise for you to lock yourself into a career path that you might hate just to service debt. If you understand--and if you're comfortable--with what over $300,000 in debt and big law would entail, then go for it, but it's not a choice that I personally would be comfortable making. I know it's your dream school, but what will that shiny M/P/V/D degree be worth to you when you're shoveling shit to your lenders for 20 years?

Not a direct answer, I know, but that's just my opinion.

If your goal is PI or PSLF jobs, then it's a different story.

Thanks for the candid advice. I pretty much agree and have always told myself I wouldn't pay sticker anywhere.

But I was also thinking about it and under PAYE, wouldn't the fear of a 300k debt really just be psychological? I mean, if I find myself in a state of misery, I could always just quit biglaw and move on to a smaller firm/state gov job/Starbucks Barista and still only pay 10% of my AGI. The biggest issue would be the psychological cloud of a six figure debt hanging over my head, but really, its not all that financially crippling if you learn to live with it. On the other hand, the ambiguity of the tax bomb is a pain in the ass, but who knows. Just.. ugh.

[bokampers]

Kinda depends on the school if you're deadset on going to law school without retaking. V/P you probably won't get money from next cycle (I'm assuming you're not URM), but M/D might give a small scholly...Nothing near 120k, though.

I actually am URM, which may change the playing field. I just don't like banking on that.

Also, you don't think bailing on a WL acceptance will prohibit me from getting readmitted next cycle?

[lymenheimer]

Kinda depends on the school if you're deadset on going to law school without retaking. V/P you probably won't get money from next cycle (I'm assuming you're not URM), but M/D might give a small scholly...Nothing near 120k, though.

I actually am URM, which may change the playing field. I just don't like banking on that.

Also, you don't think bailing on a WL acceptance will prohibit me from getting readmitted next cycle?

Oh...well that's an important piece. Depends on the school and your preference for the school over other schools. I'd guess you'd get acceptances to all 4 if you apply sooner than later next cycle.

[Jmart082]

If forced to take on this debt load, I'd take Penn with UVA a close second.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Why don't you just, ya know, retake in October for a 170+ and then reapply. You probably will get some scholarship money, and fewer loans is always better. If you do end up deciding you just want to do PAYE, you will probably get into one of CCN which will give you better prospects. I know you probably don't want to hear it, but retaking is TCR here.

I wish that were an option but I'm maxed out until June 2017, which would mean two additional cycles off with no guarantee of anything.

I'm personal friends with half a dozen MVPD types who went at or near sticker and they ALL, without exception, are not happy with their financial outcomes. They fully expect to live a life of indentured servitude for the next 5-10 years with little to no chance of home ownership, employment flexibility or ability to start a family.

Every single one would say something along the lines of "you can't spend prestige". So, tread cautiously.

[Jmart082]

Why don't you just, ya know, retake in October for a 170+ and then reapply. You probably will get some scholarship money, and fewer loans is always better. If you do end up deciding you just want to do PAYE, you will probably get into one of CCN which will give you better prospects. I know you probably don't want to hear it, but retaking is TCR here.

I wish that were an option but I'm maxed out until June 2017, which would mean two additional cycles off with no guarantee of anything.

I'm personal friends with half a dozen MVPD types who went at or near sticker and they ALL, without exception, are not happy with their financial outcomes. They fully expect to live a life of indentured servitude for the next 5-10 years with little to no chance of home ownership, employment flexibility or ability to start a family.

Every single one would say something along the lines of "you can't spend prestige". So, tread cautiously.

[bretby]

I reapplied to schools after turning them down on my first try and got in again the second time, and at a few places with more money. I don't think schools "hold it against you", especially if you do something interesting in the intervening year. Even staying at your old job for another year is a reasonable explanation for holding off for a year.

[abl]

What sort of law do you want to practice, and how excited do you feel about that? What are your alternative careers and how excited about them are you? How much do you need luxury and/or how content are you to pack a lunch, live in a nice (but not the nicest) apartment, etc? Are you planning on ending up in a super-expensive market (like NY/SF) or somewhere more affordable (like Chicago or a non-major market)? Do you have any family members who might need financial help from you in the next 10 years? Similarly, do you have any family members who might be able to financially help you out in the next 10 years if needed?

These are all relevant questions. It is not always or necessarily going to be a bad decision to go to M/P/V/D at sticker. Depending on your goals, debt tolerance, alternatives, etc, M/P/V/D at sticker can be a great option. It's pretty impossible for anyone here to tell you whether this would be a mistake or not for you without understanding the above (and other) relevant factors.

[bokampers]

What sort of law do you want to practice, and how excited do you feel about that? What are your alternative careers and how excited about them are you? How much do you need luxury and/or how content are you to pack a lunch, live in a nice (but not the nicest) apartment, etc? Are you planning on ending up in a super-expensive market (like NY/SF) or somewhere more affordable (like Chicago or a non-major market)? Do you have any family members who might need financial help from you in the next 10 years? Similarly, do you have any family members who might be able to financially help you out in the next 10 years if needed?

These are all relevant questions. It is not always or necessarily going to be a bad decision to go to M/P/V/D at sticker. Depending on your goals, debt tolerance, alternatives, etc, M/P/V/D at sticker can be a great option. It's pretty impossible for anyone here to tell you whether this would be a mistake or not for you without understanding the above (and other) relevant factors.

Excellent points.

I would ideally like to focus my career on litigation. If I'm fortunate enough to snag a federal clerkship, I'd gladly pursue that. I would then hope to do a 3-5 year stint in biglaw (hoping for a secondary market) in order to build savings/down-payment and gain some experience. Longterm, the dream is to end up government work - preferably as an AUSA. I know these are ambitious goals. If the alternative is NYC biglaw, I'd be okay with that for a short time but would certainty be itching to ditch New York.

I don't expect to need to help out family, God-willing. Parents are still pretty young and my siblings are on the right track for themselves. I'm in a serious relationship but not married nor do I have kids (yet). I also grew up/still am fairly poor. I expect to be over-the-moon happy so long as I have financial stability and some savings. I won't need an ultra-lux apartment or a BMW M3 to keep me satisfied. I would like to own a nice house in the suburbs within the next 10 years or so, though.

My assumption is that I'd be fine either way. That sticker debt is psychologically nasty but PAYE makes it totally serviceable and I doubt it'd ruin my life. However, I can't help but wonder if, as a URM with a 3.5/169-ish, I'd be selling myself short by not reapplying nice and early next cycle.

[bokampers]

Also, my deposit deadline is 24-48hrs away and I'm still very undecided on what to do

[Johann]

yeah debt isnt anything with PAYE once you can wrap your mind around it. My SO and I are >500K in debt and I don't feel like I have to stay in biglaw because of PAYE. She already quit the law (again because PAYE).

Plus if you get govt, that shit is forgiven after 10 years with no tax bomb.

[Glacial]

If forced to take on this debt load, I'd take Penn with UVA a close second.

+1

[abl]

What sort of law do you want to practice, and how excited do you feel about that? What are your alternative careers and how excited about them are you? How much do you need luxury and/or how content are you to pack a lunch, live in a nice (but not the nicest) apartment, etc? Are you planning on ending up in a super-expensive market (like NY/SF) or somewhere more affordable (like Chicago or a non-major market)? Do you have any family members who might need financial help from you in the next 10 years? Similarly, do you have any family members who might be able to financially help you out in the next 10 years if needed?

These are all relevant questions. It is not always or necessarily going to be a bad decision to go to M/P/V/D at sticker. Depending on your goals, debt tolerance, alternatives, etc, M/P/V/D at sticker can be a great option. It's pretty impossible for anyone here to tell you whether this would be a mistake or not for you without understanding the above (and other) relevant factors.

Excellent points.

I would ideally like to focus my career on litigation. If I'm fortunate enough to snag a federal clerkship, I'd gladly pursue that. I would then hope to do a 3-5 year stint in biglaw (hoping for a secondary market) in order to build savings/down-payment and gain some experience. Longterm, the dream is to end up government work - preferably as an AUSA. I know these are ambitious goals. If the alternative is NYC biglaw, I'd be okay with that for a short time but would certainty be itching to ditch New York.

I don't expect to need to help out family, God-willing. Parents are still pretty young and my siblings are on the right track for themselves. I'm in a serious relationship but not married nor do I have kids (yet). I also grew up/still am fairly poor. I expect to be over-the-moon happy so long as I have financial stability and some savings. I won't need an ultra-lux apartment or a BMW M3 to keep me satisfied. I would like to own a nice house in the suburbs within the next 10 years or so, though.

My assumption is that I'd be fine either way. That sticker debt is psychologically nasty but PAYE makes it totally serviceable and I doubt it'd ruin my life. However, I can't help but wonder if, as a URM with a 3.5/169-ish, I'd be selling myself short by not reapplying nice and early next cycle.

You should note that your plan is not particularly consistent with $200,000 debt. You're not going to be able to save much in 3-5 years of biglaw with that debt load unless you're ok leaving biglaw with a ton of debt. (E.g., you can leave biglaw with ~$150k in savings and ~$150k in debt.) It's not a terrible plan--especially if you then become an AUSA and let the government repay your debt--but it carries a big psychological burden of having an enormous amount of debt hanging over your head, which is something that your posts imply you wouldn't be happy with. If you want to both pay off your debt and save significantly, you're probably going to both have to last longer than 3-5 years in biglaw and live significantly more frugally than the average biglaw associate. It's certainly not impossible, and I think you could probably pay off that debt and save a significant amount in that time period if you're exceptionally fiscally disciplined. But most folks aren't going to be willing to or able to exercise that amount of spending restraint while working as a biglaw associate.

Incidentally, I don't think those goals are overly ambitious. Coming from the schools you'r considering, chances are you'll get a secondary market biglaw job (assuming you have connections to that market). You have an outside shot of a clerkship, although you're right to treat the possibility more as a bonus than an expectation. And, with 3-5 years of lit experience and the right law school commitments, you'll be competitive for an AUSA job or, at the very least, some other meaningful government position.

In short, I don't think it sounds like you're the sort of person for whom this path would obviously be a mistake. Now, should you re-apply? I honestly am a little out-of-touch now with what scores get what folks into what law schools--so I'll leave that to others on the board. Assuming for whatever reason that you decide not to reapply, though, I think that going to MPVD at sticker for your could be a fine decision. Treat the choice as a commitment to ~10 or so years of decidedly middle class living while working exceptionally hard relative to others who share similar economic circumstances with you. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it certainly is a choice that some can stomach better than others. If you think you'd be happy in that position, and given those tradeoffs, would still prefer the lit associate -> gov attorney career track to whatever non-law career you'd pursue, then go for it!

[Dcc617]

Just wait and reapply. You'll probably get more money.

[Jmart082]

Just wait and reapply. You'll probably get more money.

[BoobGoddess]

I don't think any law school is worth it at sticker. I took a full scholarship at a T20 and I'm so happy I did.

[bokampers]

M/P/V/D came in clutch with a last minute scholarship offer y'all. I deposited. This was a happy ending.

[abl]

M/P/V/D came in clutch with a last minute scholarship offer y'all. I deposited. This was a happy ending.

Congrats!

[Bach-City]

M/P/V/D came in clutch with a last minute scholarship offer y'all. I deposited. This was a happy ending.

Congrats!!! Good luck at your new life in Ann Arbor/Philadelphia/Charlottesville/Durham!!!

[brinicolec]

Congrats! Did you negotiate for it?