Top Law Schools

Food for thought, 0Ls and prospective students.

http://daily.jstor.org/do-people-regret ... aw-school/

Finally, the researchers analyzed a questionnaire that asked the lawyers themselves, about seven years on, how they felt about their decision. These numbers painted a surprisingly rosy picture. Unsurprisingly, graduates from the top 10 schools reported the highest satisfaction, but those from lower schools were not far behind. On a 14-point scale, elite lawyers had an average satisfaction score of 11.08, compared with 10.64 for the less-elite group. Those with the highest debt (six figures or higher), had a mean satisfaction score of 9.9, and those with around $30,000 in debt had a mean score around 11. This doesn’t seem an enormous difference in satisfaction given the substantial difference in debt burden.

There were also interesting correlations between job roles and happiness. Those working in state government reported lower satisfaction than those in federal government. Other factors connected with happiness were salary, working in a non-governmental sector, being a practicing lawyer, being African-American, and being over 40. While things like having a lot of debt reduced satisfaction, categories like having attended a top school and GPA were unimportant by the time the lawyers took the survey, and instead factors like the opportunity to do pro bono work had more of an effect.

Yes but did they interview people who were no longer lawyers, or were never lawyers, 7 years after graduating.

You don't need to go to a T10 to be successful and happy (and a T10 does not guarantee success or happiness) but it sure as hell improves your odds significantly. Significantly enough to warrant retaking the LSAT.

Yeah, that was my question. If they're surveying practicing lawyers (as they appear to be) that skews the results away from regretting your choice. I don't think most people would argue that if you're a practicing lawyer 7 years after graduation, your happiness is that dependent on which school you went to. The problem is if you're someone who can't find work as a lawyer or changes fields because you hate it (people who hate it are unlikely to stick with it for 7 years).

Don't get me wrong, it's kind of interesting, but very limited.

"This study tracks more than 4500 lawyers who began their legal careers in the year 2000"

pg 215.

Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on the study criteria. Even reading the original study, it's not clear how they selected their participants or if they bothered following up with the people who never actually became lawyers after law school, which is a more significant number the lower down you go in the rankings.

For example, I'm sure you won't find many students out of the T50 who feel real regret about their choice to attend law school. And if you only interview the success stories from Ave Maria (all five of them), you'll see similar data. But it looks like the study authors went out of their way to obscure their data collection methods to try and make a point.

Also, it's interesting that they used the top 10 cut-off, when it's fairly common knowledge that the "elite" law schools are the T14. So I'd be curious to find out if they included schools like Northwestern in their data set for "non-elite" school satisfaction.

I get paid well and have a good job. I also like practicing law and do not regret going to law school. However, if I got paid poorly and had a lousy job, I suspect that I would regret going to law school.

I have a good job and I still regret going (or more, going when I did), so.

Boom. This confirms what I have been saying on these boards from my experience. My friends who are solos are probably the happiest of everyone, followed by people who end up leaving the law, followed by people who work shitlaw, followed lastly by people in biglaw.

There really is nothing that points to someone having a better life after graduating from T14 and TTT assuming you are taking a broad view of life and including children, family, work life balance, traveling, relationships and friendships, commitment to public service in an overarching really inclusive definition of life. Nor do the people who take out lots of debt really let it impact their day to day life.

mcmand wrote:Food for thought, 0Ls and prospective students.

http://daily.jstor.org/do-people-regret ... aw-school/

Finally, the researchers analyzed a questionnaire that asked the lawyers themselves, about seven years on, how they felt about their decision. These numbers painted a surprisingly rosy picture. Unsurprisingly, graduates from the top 10 schools reported the highest satisfaction, but those from lower schools were not far behind. On a 14-point scale, elite lawyers had an average satisfaction score of 11.08, compared with 10.64 for the less-elite group. Those with the highest debt (six figures or higher), had a mean satisfaction score of 9.9, and those with around $30,000 in debt had a mean score around 11. This doesn’t seem an enormous difference in satisfaction given the substantial difference in debt burden.

There were also interesting correlations between job roles and happiness. Those working in state government reported lower satisfaction than those in federal government. Other factors connected with happiness were salary, working in a non-governmental sector, being a practicing lawyer, being African-American, and being over 40. While things like having a lot of debt reduced satisfaction, categories like having attended a top school and GPA were unimportant by the time the lawyers took the survey, and instead factors like the opportunity to do pro bono work had more of an effect.

Doesnt the bolded mean that they included non-practicing lawyers. Wouldnt it make no sense to say that being apracticing lawyer correlated with happiness if everyone surveyed was a practicing lawyer.

JohannDeMann wrote:Boom. This confirms what I have been saying on these boards from my experience. My friends who are solos are probably the happiest of everyone, followed by people who end up leaving the law, followed by people who work shitlaw, followed lastly by people in biglaw.

There really is nothing that points to someone having a better life after graduating from T14 and TTT assuming you are taking a broad view of life and including children, family, work life balance, traveling, relationships and friendships, commitment to public service in an overarching really inclusive definition of life. Nor do the people who take out lots of debt really let it impact their day to day life.

I agree that you don't need prestige or $$$ to be happy, but debt really impacts people's lives man. I don't think most people can be so laissez faire about having 200k+ debt even with loan forgiveness.

PeanutsNJam wrote:

JohannDeMann wrote:Boom. This confirms what I have been saying on these boards from my experience. My friends who are solos are probably the happiest of everyone, followed by people who end up leaving the law, followed by people who work shitlaw, followed lastly by people in biglaw.

There really is nothing that points to someone having a better life after graduating from T14 and TTT assuming you are taking a broad view of life and including children, family, work life balance, traveling, relationships and friendships, commitment to public service in an overarching really inclusive definition of life. Nor do the people who take out lots of debt really let it impact their day to day life.

I agree that you don't need prestige or $$$ to be happy, but debt really impacts people's lives man. I don't think most people can be so laissez faire about having 200k+ debt even with loan forgiveness.

Word.

PeanutsNJam wrote:

JohannDeMann wrote:Boom. This confirms what I have been saying on these boards from my experience. My friends who are solos are probably the happiest of everyone, followed by people who end up leaving the law, followed by people who work shitlaw, followed lastly by people in biglaw.

There really is nothing that points to someone having a better life after graduating from T14 and TTT assuming you are taking a broad view of life and including children, family, work life balance, traveling, relationships and friendships, commitment to public service in an overarching really inclusive definition of life. Nor do the people who take out lots of debt really let it impact their day to day life.

I agree that you don't need prestige or $$$ to be happy, but debt really impacts people's lives man. I don't think most people can be so laissez faire about having 200k+ debt even with loan forgiveness.

The study argues to the contrary. And those test people didn't even have PAYE.

JohannDeMann wrote:Boom. This confirms what I have been saying on these boards from my experience. My friends who are solos are probably the happiest of everyone, followed by people who end up leaving the law, followed by people who work shitlaw, followed lastly by people in biglaw.

Followed, of course, by the baristas who never passed the bar and those who still can't get a job. Not everyone from a low-tier school gets to "leave" the law as much as they are never allowed to enter it.

As mentioned, the criteria for this study only included practicing lawyers. And of course they're thrilled. It's like asking a group of successful venture capitalists whether they think that the risks of their trade are worth the reward.

jbagelboy wrote:I have a good job and I still regret going (or more, going when I did), so.

Why that red inked part if you don't mind saying?

JohannDeMann wrote:Boom. This confirms what I have been saying on these boards from my experience. My friends who are solos are probably the happiest of everyone, followed by people who end up leaving the law, followed by people who work shitlaw, followed lastly by people in biglaw.

There really is nothing that points to someone having a better life after graduating from T14 and TTT assuming you are taking a broad view of life and including children, family, work life balance, traveling, relationships and friendships, commitment to public service in an overarching really inclusive definition of life. Nor do the people who take out lots of debt really let it impact their day to day life.

I kind of agree with you, up to the last line. Someone who makes being a solo work for them has a lot of autonomy and can within reason pick and choose what they do. (I would do terribly as a solo but I wouldn't try for it to begin with.) Not being able to support yourself as a solo would suck, of course. And some shit law is as bad as biglaw without the money or cachet to get you a better job.

But I think you're overstating most people's comfort with debt, whether that discomfort is rational or not. Also, I really doubt most of the people in the study took out anything LIKE the amount of debt people do now. People who graduated in 2000 from my state law school were paying $7-8000 a year in tuition. Even in-state tuition now runs you about $30k a year. So they're really not a good sample to say "debt doesn't make you unhappy."

It might be more difficult to track down people who were lawyers but left the profession than it is to obtain a mailing list for currently practicing lawyers to survey them. Doesn't mean the study authors shouldn't have tried, but that could be a reason...

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

JohannDeMann wrote:Boom. This confirms what I have been saying on these boards from my experience. My friends who are solos are probably the happiest of everyone, followed by people who end up leaving the law, followed by people who work shitlaw, followed lastly by people in biglaw.

There really is nothing that points to someone having a better life after graduating from T14 and TTT assuming you are taking a broad view of life and including children, family, work life balance, traveling, relationships and friendships, commitment to public service in an overarching really inclusive definition of life. Nor do the people who take out lots of debt really let it impact their day to day life.

I kind of agree with you, up to the last line. Someone who makes being a solo work for them has a lot of autonomy and can within reason pick and choose what they do. (I would do terribly as a solo but I wouldn't try for it to begin with.) Not being able to support yourself as a solo would suck, of course. And some shit law is as bad as biglaw without the money or cachet to get you a better job.

But I think you're overstating most people's comfort with debt, whether that discomfort is rational or not. Also, I really doubt most of the people in the study took out anything LIKE the amount of debt people do now. People who graduated in 2000 from my state law school were paying $7-8000 a year in tuition. Even in-state tuition now runs you about $30k a year. So they're really not a good sample to say "debt doesn't make you unhappy."

Op's post said lawyers w avg. debt that's 100k+ though. I'm really curious if this survey isn't subject to some serious response bias.

MyNameIsntJames wrote:Op's post said lawyers w avg. debt that's 100k+ though. I'm really curious if this survey isn't subject to some serious response bias.

Well, no, the OP says

Those with the highest debt (six figures or higher), had a mean satisfaction score of 9.9, and those with around $30,000 in debt had a mean score around 11. This doesn’t seem an enormous difference in satisfaction given the substantial difference in debt burden.

So the point that there wasn't a huge difference in happiness based on debt is true (though still a difference), but it doesn't say that the lawyers in the survey averaged over $100k. "Those with the highest debt" could be 3 lawyers. It also doesn't say what the top bound of that debt is - I think $100k-ish is still very different from $250-300k, which people taking sticker at a private big city school can easily reach these days.

Jordan Catalano wrote:It might be more difficult to track down people who were lawyers but left the profession than it is to obtain a mailing list for currently practicing lawyers to survey them. Doesn't mean the study authors shouldn't have tried, but that could be a reason...

Oh, I'm sure that's the case. In theory law schools should have contact for their alumni but I'd imagine people who leave the profession aren't very concerned with updating their address with the school. That said, it still makes the survey a little like the drunk looking for his keys under the streetlight because that's where the light is.

jnwa wrote:Doesnt the bolded mean that they included non-practicing lawyers. Wouldnt it make no sense to say that being apracticing lawyer correlated with happiness if everyone surveyed was a practicing lawyer.

I think this is an issue with the people writing the article in the original link mis-describing something in the actual study. The actual full article states pretty clearly that it tracks "more than 4,500 lawyers who began their legal careers in the year 2000" and that the data comes from a project run by the ABA and NALP. There were apparently 3 waves of data collection but the study relies on two from 2003 and 2007. So it's possible the study includes people who were identified as lawyers in 2003 and had left the profession by 2007 but were still tracked, or people who self identify as lawyers and so are ABA members or the like but unemployed, or that the linked article described something in the full article inartfully. (I have only skimmed the whole article so haven't found some conclusion that would match the idea that being a practicing lawyer is correlated with happiness.)

Even if there is some portion of the sample who left law between 2003 and 2007, it still sounds as though the study doesn't capture people who never made it into law to begin with (if their careers began in 2000).

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

MyNameIsntJames wrote:Op's post said lawyers w avg. debt that's 100k+ though. I'm really curious if this survey isn't subject to some serious response bias.

Well, no, the OP says

Those with the highest debt (six figures or higher), had a mean satisfaction score of 9.9, and those with around $30,000 in debt had a mean score around 11. This doesn’t seem an enormous difference in satisfaction given the substantial difference in debt burden.

So the point that there wasn't a huge difference in happiness based on debt is true (though still a difference), but it doesn't say that the lawyers in the survey averaged over $100k. "Those with the highest debt" could be 3 lawyers. It also doesn't say what the top bound of that debt is - I think $100k-ish is still very different from $250-300k, which people taking sticker at a private big city school can easily reach these days.

This is true

The researchers also found that indeed, going to a Top 10 law school was crucial, and that grades matter too; graduates with average grades (under about 3.37 GPA) from a Top 10 were about as likely to find a spot in a top firm as the very best students from less prestigious schools.

Neatly summed up "retake," nicely

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

Jordan Catalano wrote:It might be more difficult to track down people who were lawyers but left the profession than it is to obtain a mailing list for currently practicing lawyers to survey them. Doesn't mean the study authors shouldn't have tried, but that could be a reason...

Oh, I'm sure that's the case. In theory law schools should have contact for their alumni but I'd imagine people who leave the profession aren't very concerned with updating their address with the school. That said, it still makes the survey a little like the drunk looking for his keys under the streetlight because that's where the light is.

jnwa wrote:Doesnt the bolded mean that they included non-practicing lawyers. Wouldnt it make no sense to say that being apracticing lawyer correlated with happiness if everyone surveyed was a practicing lawyer.

I think this is an issue with the people writing the article in the original link mis-describing something in the actual study. The actual full article states pretty clearly that it tracks "more than 4,500 lawyers who began their legal careers in the year 2000" and that the data comes from a project run by the ABA and NALP. There were apparently 3 waves of data collection but the study relies on two from 2003 and 2007. So it's possible the study includes people who were identified as lawyers in 2003 and had left the profession by 2007 but were still tracked, or people who self identify as lawyers and so are ABA members or the like but unemployed, or that the linked article described something in the full article inartfully. (I have only skimmed the whole article so haven't found some conclusion that would match the idea that being a practicing lawyer is correlated with happiness.)

Even if there is some portion of the sample who left law between 2003 and 2007, it still sounds as though the study doesn't capture people who never made it into law to begin with (if their careers began in 2000).

just use facts. tracking 4500 lawyers who began their careers in the year 2000 means that by 2007 a majority of those participants are no longer practicing law. we know this based on lawyer attrition. i think you guys are misunderstanding how a study tracks 4500 people. its not like they decided in 2007 hmmm lets find 4500 people. they find the sample way earlier on (probably 2001 or 2002) and then track them all 5 years throughout the study. a majority of these people are nonpracticing law graduates. the sample is 4500 which is a huge sample. sample sizes of 45 are pretty reliable. this study is basically a gold standard with what you can possibly achieve with real data and some 0Ls who suck at and dont understand stats are trying to pick it apart because they disagree with the results.

barkschool wrote:

The researchers also found that indeed, going to a Top 10 law school was crucial, and that grades matter too; graduates with average grades (under about 3.37 GPA) from a Top 10 were about as likely to find a spot in a top firm as the very best students from less prestigious schools.

Neatly summed up "retake," nicely

actually that argues to "study your ass off in law school regardless where you go"

Johann, you're not paying attention. The article is based on data from the ABA and NALP, which are associations of lawyers, and not from law schools directly, so it's not tracking all law grads. It also states expressly that the study tracks lawyers who began their legal careers in 2000. And it says (as I already stated) that it has 3 waves of data collection, in 2003, 2007, and 2012. So the first identification and collection of data is in 2003. There's nothing at all about that that says the majority in the sample are non-practicing law grads - selecting people who started in 2000 and are lawyers in 2003 already leaves out huge numbers of people who never got jobs and who left law. Also, I don't think we do have numbers to support that a majority of people have left the law. There's huge attrition in biglaw, but not everyone who leaves a biglaw firm leaves the law, and I don't think that model has been supported outside of biglaw.

So some people are having problems with understanding the sample but I don't think it's the 0Ls.

In the grand scheme of things I tend to agree that grads from lower-ranked schools aren't alone and destitute in the way that this forum tends to paint them. But that doesn't make the article based on a sound sample, and it doesn't mean that going to those schools is the best idea for everyone. I tend to think people make their own happiness under most circumstances.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Johann, you're not paying attention. The article is based on data from the ABA and NALP, which are associations of lawyers, and not from law schools directly, so it's not tracking all law grads. It also states expressly that the study tracks lawyers who began their legal careers in 2000. And it says (as I already stated) that it has 3 waves of data collection, in 2003, 2007, and 2012. So the first identification and collection of data is in 2003. There's nothing at all about that that says the majority in the sample are non-practicing law grads - selecting people who started in 2000 and are lawyers in 2003 already leaves out huge numbers of people who never got jobs and who left law. Also, I don't think we do have numbers to support that a majority of people have left the law. There's huge attrition in biglaw, but not everyone who leaves a biglaw firm leaves the law, and I don't think that model has been supported outside of biglaw.

So some people are having problems with understanding the sample but I don't think it's the 0Ls.

In the grand scheme of things I tend to agree that grads from lower-ranked schools aren't alone and destitute in the way that this forum tends to paint them. But that doesn't make the article based on a sound sample, and it doesn't mean that going to those schools is the best idea for everyone. I tend to think people make their own happiness under most circumstances.

Schooled.