Top Law Schools

Hello all,

169/3.77
Penn Law - 55K over 3 yrs
NYU - 75K over 3 yrs

UPDATE: Penn Law - 85K over 3yrs
If I trust LST calculator, I graduate Penn with 40k less in debt -- is this enough to make it an obvious choice?

Penn's COA (on their site) - $82,230
NYU's COA (on their site) - $85,964



Financing through loans & I got off the waitlist for these schools so these are need-based packages (cannot negotiate for merit aid)

Born and raised in NYC with lots of friends here. Part of me says this is good because I know I love NYC, but I see the appeal of living in a new city (which is only a couple hours away if I really wanted to visit home)

Career goal is NYC/DC Biglaw

For a host of personal reasons I will not be taking the LSAT again

All insight is appreciated, thank you

If those COA figures are accurate NYU sounds like the choice at that price.

The COA is the one that the schools' sites have right? If so, calculate your total COA with the aid included, and then add it to your post.

TheMikey wrote:The COA is the one that the schools' sites have right? If so, calculate your total COA with the aid included, and then add it to your post.

Debt at repayment NYU: 232K
Debt at repayment Penn: 228K


After talking with many people, they are suggesting that "fit" is the most important consideration at this point

.

These were the only two schools whose ASW I attended this year. Everything's subjective, but.. from my experiences, Penn seems like a more enjoyable place to attend. The environment there was extremely warm and welcoming, student-empowering, and positive. The students stayed on campus during weekdays. In contrast, at NYU it seemed that students would take classes and then disappear to their homes across the city. Their ASW was relatively formal and somewhat stark, in my opinion.

Another thing to consider is that Penn doesn't rank their students. Their students and admin claim that it leads to much less competitive atmosphere, which I'm sure it does. If you believe that you'd rank highly and that your grades are all that you have going for you (no previous work experience, weak interviewing skills) then having a strong rank may be important for you-- a point for NYU. Just another thing to consider!

Either way--good luck. You can't go (too) wrong.

Thank you all for replies. It's given me a lot to think about. Does anyone know if NYU ranks their class?

NYU doesn't rank their students, and they don't even calculate GPAs, or allow us to put our GPAs on our resumes. My hypothesis is that this affects students who have a mix of Bs and B+s... it makes it harder for employers to ascertain minute differences in GPA. I'm not sure if this hurts or helps, but career services says that this helps median students.

Why would ranking make a difference when it comes to being competitive? Everyone gets grades, everyone knows generally how good their own grades are if they're notable in any way (vs being part of the giant median lump.)

I mean, I don't know that ranking doesn't increase competitiveness, but it seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

I'm skeptical because 1) people frequently claim that my school is competitive, which is really not true and 2) I've never heard of NYU as being competitive at all, rather the opposite.

Re: rankings. I wish that we ranked because it would be nice to know whether I should be slightly miserable about my grades, blasé, or mildly pleased (what's up fellow medians). It would also be nice to know whether I'm legitimately in the running for a clerkship before I bother to try to write on to law review (for example.) That's something where knowing if I were on the higher end of the median lump would be really helpful and save a lot of time and energy.

Anyway, most of the stuff people claim makes a difference at various schools probably doesn't make much of a difference. The stuff that does make a difference is usually stuff you can't predict.

The things I can think of that probably are genuinely important in approximate order are

how much you are paying

how well you have to do to get a decent job

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
location
quarter system vs semester system
1L class sizes (most T-14 schools are the same, though)
small school vs. large school
graded LRW vs non-graded LRW
niceness and competence of administrators
how well you have to do to get your dream job
grade differentiation (lots, some, none)
electives vs required classes
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
other stuff

So people here have provided excellent advice.. I just want to chime in and say to not stress about this decision too much! You're in an excellent position, and either Penn or NYU are awesome choices for what you want to do.

Basically... just go wherever you're more comfortable and don't worry all that much about it

(I also suspect that not ranking or not having graded classes tends to disfavor high-ranking women and URMs, but that's neither here nor there.)

coocooforcoacoapuffs wrote:

TheMikey wrote:The COA is the one that the schools' sites have right? If so, calculate your total COA with the aid included, and then add it to your post.

Debt at repayment NYU: 232K
Debt at repayment Penn: 228K


After talking with many people, they are suggesting that "fit" is the most important consideration at this point

OK based on this and after perusing 2015 employment stats I am switching my vote to Penn but I think either choice is defensible. Penn looks like it had somewhat better biglaw (100+ attorney firms) + federal clerkship % in 2015 - 76.8% versus NYU's 68.0%. I didn't look at earlier years though.

Penn placed 23 people in DC in 2015 compared to NYU's 35 - a smaller absolute number but a bigger percentage of the class (9.3% to 7.2%). The vast majority of jobs from either school is in New York. My guess is the discrepancy is mostly explained by self-selection.

This seems like ... a not close call from my perspective? Cost is basically the same, NYU is the slightly better school -- albeit not by any sort of dispositive margin -- and from OP's post seems to produce the better fit. (If fit runs the other way, then Penn is the right call.)

The biglaw + clerkship numbers become a lot less relevant at a certain rank of school, and I can't imagine that NYU students are at a disadvantage with DC hiring.

coocooforcoacoapuffs wrote:

TheMikey wrote:The COA is the one that the schools' sites have right? If so, calculate your total COA with the aid included, and then add it to your post.

Debt at repayment NYU: 232K
Debt at repayment Penn: 228K


After talking with many people, they are suggesting that "fit" is the most important consideration at this point

That's quite a lot of debt, but I know you're not retaking but they are both great schools. In your situation they are relative in price, and both will get you biglaw. I believe it's mostly about where you feel more comfortable spending 3 years at, have you visited both schools?

Also, if you attend NYU will you be living at home with family or paying rent/on campus housing? Does your Penn COA include housing costs?

TheMikey wrote:

coocooforcoacoapuffs wrote:

TheMikey wrote:The COA is the one that the schools' sites have right? If so, calculate your total COA with the aid included, and then add it to your post.

Debt at repayment NYU: 232K
Debt at repayment Penn: 228K


After talking with many people, they are suggesting that "fit" is the most important consideration at this point

That's quite a lot of debt, but I know you're not retaking but they are both great schools. In your situation they are relative in price, and both will get you biglaw. I believe it's mostly about where you feel more comfortable spending 3 years at, have you visited both schools?

Also, if you attend NYU will you be living at home with family or paying rent/on campus housing? Does your Penn COA include housing costs?

Yes, both estimates include housing costs. I actually think that the numbers I used from their websites are a little more than I would spend on housing, but I figured it was safer to overestimate expenses. I cannot live at home in NYC as parents' housing situation is not all that stable. That is part of the reason I don't want to wait any longer before going to school; I am anxious to help them out once I start pulling in some paychecks.

coocooforcoacoapuffs wrote:

TheMikey wrote:

coocooforcoacoapuffs wrote:

TheMikey wrote:The COA is the one that the schools' sites have right? If so, calculate your total COA with the aid included, and then add it to your post.

Debt at repayment NYU: 232K
Debt at repayment Penn: 228K


After talking with many people, they are suggesting that "fit" is the most important consideration at this point

That's quite a lot of debt, but I know you're not retaking but they are both great schools. In your situation they are relative in price, and both will get you biglaw. I believe it's mostly about where you feel more comfortable spending 3 years at, have you visited both schools?

Also, if you attend NYU will you be living at home with family or paying rent/on campus housing? Does your Penn COA include housing costs?

Yes, both estimates include housing costs. I actually think that the numbers I used from their websites are a little more than I would spend on housing, but I figured it was safer to overestimate expenses. I cannot live at home in NYC as parents' housing situation is not all that stable. That is part of the reason I don't want to wait any longer before going to school; I am anxious to help them out once I start pulling in some paychecks.

Yeah, I see. Aside from all of the advice given to you so far with employment stats, etc., the only thing left is just for you to see where you feel most comfortable at. Visit the school is you haven't already, I don't think you can go wrong with either school. Do you want to stay close to family/friends during law school? If so, then NYU may be the better choice.

coocooforcoacoapuffs wrote:

TheMikey wrote:The COA is the one that the schools' sites have right? If so, calculate your total COA with the aid included, and then add it to your post.

Debt at repayment NYU: 232K
Debt at repayment Penn: 228K


After talking with many people, they are suggesting that "fit" is the most important consideration at this point

Too much debt, esp if your "goal" is to work biglaw...aka you have no idea what you want to do.

lawlorbust wrote:This seems like ... a not close call from my perspective? Cost is basically the same, NYU is the slightly better school -- albeit not by any sort of dispositive margin -- and from OP's post seems to produce the better fit. (If fit runs the other way, then Penn is the right call.)

The biglaw + clerkship numbers become a lot less relevant at a certain rank of school, and I can't imagine that NYU students are at a disadvantage with DC hiring.

So I'm a little confused about this because I was always under the impression that NYU was a little bit better school than Penn. If Penn actually has better BL+FC numbers than NYU, what exactly is it that makes NYU not just an equally good school but a *better* school?

stego wrote:

lawlorbust wrote:This seems like ... a not close call from my perspective? Cost is basically the same, NYU is the slightly better school -- albeit not by any sort of dispositive margin -- and from OP's post seems to produce the better fit. (If fit runs the other way, then Penn is the right call.)

The biglaw + clerkship numbers become a lot less relevant at a certain rank of school, and I can't imagine that NYU students are at a disadvantage with DC hiring.

So I'm a little confused about this because I was always under the impression that NYU was a little bit better school than Penn. If Penn actually has better BL+FC numbers than NYU, what exactly is it that makes NYU not just an equally good school but a *better* school?

The magazine known as USNEWS.

Also the Sandusky shit.

stego wrote:

lawlorbust wrote:This seems like ... a not close call from my perspective? Cost is basically the same, NYU is the slightly better school -- albeit not by any sort of dispositive margin -- and from OP's post seems to produce the better fit. (If fit runs the other way, then Penn is the right call.)

The biglaw + clerkship numbers become a lot less relevant at a certain rank of school, and I can't imagine that NYU students are at a disadvantage with DC hiring.

So I'm a little confused about this because I was always under the impression that NYU was a little bit better school than Penn. If Penn actually has better BL+FC numbers than NYU, what exactly is it that makes NYU not just an equally good school but a *better* school?

Part of the reason NYU has lower biglaw numbers (they place more students in federal clerkships than Penn) is that they have a strong PI program. So while Penn technically places a higher percentage of its class in biglaw, NYU has a lot more students self-selecting in to PI/government.

It's not a huge difference, and I'm not sure I'd say that either school is objectively "better" than the other as a whole. But that's why it looks like NYU has a better reputation than its BL+FC numbers would indicate.

stego wrote:

lawlorbust wrote:This seems like ... a not close call from my perspective? Cost is basically the same, NYU is the slightly better school -- albeit not by any sort of dispositive margin -- and from OP's post seems to produce the better fit. (If fit runs the other way, then Penn is the right call.)

The biglaw + clerkship numbers become a lot less relevant at a certain rank of school, and I can't imagine that NYU students are at a disadvantage with DC hiring.

So I'm a little confused about this because I was always under the impression that NYU was a little bit better school than Penn. If Penn actually has better BL+FC numbers than NYU, what exactly is it that makes NYU not just an equally good school but a *better* school?

NYU has a very strong PI program, which it is well known for and seems to take some pride in, so I suspect a larger percentage of NYU students self-select PI and Gov. positions. I have no idea what percentage exactly, but it probably does help to close the BigLaw + Clerkship gap a bit.

Edit: Scooped.

cavalier1138 wrote:

stego wrote:

lawlorbust wrote:This seems like ... a not close call from my perspective? Cost is basically the same, NYU is the slightly better school -- albeit not by any sort of dispositive margin -- and from OP's post seems to produce the better fit. (If fit runs the other way, then Penn is the right call.)

The biglaw + clerkship numbers become a lot less relevant at a certain rank of school, and I can't imagine that NYU students are at a disadvantage with DC hiring.

So I'm a little confused about this because I was always under the impression that NYU was a little bit better school than Penn. If Penn actually has better BL+FC numbers than NYU, what exactly is it that makes NYU not just an equally good school but a *better* school?

Part of the reason NYU has lower biglaw numbers (they place more students in federal clerkships than Penn) is that they have a strong PI program. So while Penn technically places a higher percentage of its class in biglaw, NYU has a lot more students self-selecting in to PI/government.

It's not a huge difference, and I'm not sure I'd say that either school is objectively "better" than the other as a whole. But that's why it looks like NYU has a better reputation than its BL+FC numbers would indicate.

OK, you're correct that a substantially higher number of NYU grads go into government or PI than Penn grads. But NYU does NOT place more people into federal clerkships. Last year it was NYU 27 to Penn 28 despite the fact that NYU's class is almost twice as big.

stego wrote:

cavalier1138 wrote:

stego wrote:

lawlorbust wrote:This seems like ... a not close call from my perspective? Cost is basically the same, NYU is the slightly better school -- albeit not by any sort of dispositive margin -- and from OP's post seems to produce the better fit. (If fit runs the other way, then Penn is the right call.)

The biglaw + clerkship numbers become a lot less relevant at a certain rank of school, and I can't imagine that NYU students are at a disadvantage with DC hiring.

So I'm a little confused about this because I was always under the impression that NYU was a little bit better school than Penn. If Penn actually has better BL+FC numbers than NYU, what exactly is it that makes NYU not just an equally good school but a *better* school?

Part of the reason NYU has lower biglaw numbers (they place more students in federal clerkships than Penn) is that they have a strong PI program. So while Penn technically places a higher percentage of its class in biglaw, NYU has a lot more students self-selecting in to PI/government.

It's not a huge difference, and I'm not sure I'd say that either school is objectively "better" than the other as a whole. But that's why it looks like NYU has a better reputation than its BL+FC numbers would indicate.

OK, you're correct that a substantially higher number of NYU grads go into government or PI than Penn grads. But NYU does NOT place more people into federal clerkships. Last year it was NYU 27 to Penn 28 despite the fact that NYU's class is almost twice as big.

My bad. I was looking at the 2014 numbers.

.

Flip a coin.