Cornell (Half) vs. StJohn's (Full) Forum

[silverdoe91]

I decided to go for Cardozo because of the unconditional full scholarship they gave me and they have many programs/clinics I like.

I would've taken a year off to reapply to NYU but I was working all summer so I didn't have enough time to study for the LSAT and I'm not prepared to take it in September. If I wait to take it in December, I would miss the application deadline for their scholarships, and I don't want to pay sticker for all 3 years.

I noticed that my classmates at Cardozo are very bright (some coming from NYU, Barnard, even Harvard) so it would be difficult to be in the top percent of my class as many of you have indicated. So transferring might be difficult if it's even possible at all. Also, I learned during orientation that apparently they have a new policy where you're not allowed to be on both the moot court team and a journal. I wanted to have the opportunity to be on both, but it seems that's not an option anymore. I've been considering dropping out, but if I do that will it stay on my record and ruin my chances at admission at other law schools?

For the record, I'd rather not drop out because I like my classes and not taking out loans. Plus I figure a 67% employment rate for full time legal jobs is not so bad. But now that I see how competitive my classmates are I'm a bit worried about my job prospects, since many of you have indicated that it is important to be in the top percentage of your class for some jobs if you are coming from a Tier 2 school.

Quoted for posterity.

OP, I have no idea of your age, race, gender, etc., but in my mind's eye, you are Gob Bluth after making a terrible mistake. Just magnificent.

To at least try to help (although you've already shown that you don't really do the whole "advice" thing), dropping out of a law school before you have any posted grades will not be a significant problem down the line. It may raise some eyebrows, and you probably won't get into Cardozo again (then again, beggars can't be choosers). But it won't be as bad as you're thinking.

Lol at the Gob Bluth reference. My life really has felt like an arrested development episode lately.

If I drop out, will it show up anywhere on my record? I know in law school applications they'll ask me if I've ever been to a law school before, and I'll have to explain on there why I dropped out.

I'm a middle eastern female immigrant. People in my community do not go away for college, and they try not to spend too much money on education unless they absolutely have to. I have a cousin who turned down NYU and Columbia for NYLS. I figured getting Cardozo at a full scholarship would at least be better than that. I'm also Jewish so Cardozo's policy of having days off on Jewish holidays is pretty helpful.

I guess the reason why it's difficult for me to take the advice given on here is because I don't relate to the people on here as much. I have a presumably different socioeconomic status and different goals in life (I don't need a corporate or federal job; regional is fine for me.) I've also heard contradicting advice from others outside of this board. So it's not that I don't want to take the advice given to me on here, I just question how applicable it is given my particular situation.

[Rupert Pupkin]

I had an uncle that turned down a lower T14 Ivy for a full scholarship at a small school in NYC. He often speaks of how he regrets not attending the Ivy. When I say often, I mean he tells me that each time we speak.

For what it's worth, he went into PI.

My uncle heads a support group in Queens on Tuesday nights. BYOB.

Lmao Mathis!

I understand that taking on loan debt isn't necessarily the best option and even with that its financially impractical for some folks, but I never understood people are soo short-sighted when it comes to scholarship $. I personally would take Debt on over and over again verses going to a sub-par law school. The investment of still going through the heartache of law school is substantial and not getting any return from that aka not finding a GOOD job -- just isn't worth it in todays market

[silverdoe91]

So what's your objective with this debate? Earlier you asked for advice and then ignored it completely. Now you've made your decision and are in school. Why bother resurrecting this thread?

I did not ignore the advice given on this board completely. I took it and considered it for a long time, and still do, along with many other factors such as affordability and location. In the end I decided I wasn't comfortable moving to Ithaca and living off loans. I was seriously considering retaking but it doesn't seem that I'll have time to retake the exam and do well before NYU's scholarship deadline which is in January. So I figured I might as well check out Cardozo since it's free and I don't have to make a commitment to it. So far I like the classes but I have found there are a lot of competitive students in my class which makes it less likely than I thought to graduate at the top of my class. I think they got a better group of students than usual this year because it's their first year giving out unconditional scholarships. I also realized they have a new policy that doesn't allow you to be on a team and a journal at the same time which I was not aware of till now. So now I'm considering what my options are regarding dropping out, and I came here for advice.

Like I said before I do value the advice given here Bc it's given by experts for the most part but I take every piece of advice with a grain of salt and try to see how it would fit my personal situation best. I also consider other people's advice from outside this board and weigh all the factors. Like for example, if I did not get a full scholarship from Cardozo I would not have gone there because I learned from this board that going to a non top20 school without a full ride is not a good idea. So I do take people's advice on here.

[Mikey]

So far I like the classes but I have found there are a lot of competitive students in my class which makes it less likely than I thought to graduate at the top of my class. I think they got a better group of students than usual this year because it's their first year giving out unconditional scholarships. I also realized they have a new policy that doesn't allow you to be on a team and a journal at the same time which I was not aware of till now. So now I'm considering what my options are regarding dropping out, and I came here for advice.

The semester isn't even half way yet. If you're legit considering dropping out, I'd say at least wait and see how you do in your classes. Don't just give up right at the start. Law school is competitive, and even if your classmates seem smart, doesn't mean they'll be at the top of the class. So if dropping out is a serious consideration, wait. If you intend to drop out and reapply to schools with a better LSAT score, i'm not sure how that works so someone else will have to answer that.

Also, pertaining to my other post that you wrote back to. I'm not saying you WON'T get a job, I'm just saying it will be difficult. I mean, there's at least some dozo grads who can't find a job at all, but there's the other part of grads that find a job after being out of school for a while. From my research that I've done (I was considering cardozo back when I barely knew much about law school admissions, employment, etc.), cardozo only places like what, 30% of students into jobs at graduation? Plus, what really turned me off about dozo was that whole program thing they had for small/mid sized firms to hire their grads for a year with shitty pay or something like that.

Either way, whatever you end up doing, good luck OP.

[silverdoe91]

I had an uncle that turned down a lower T14 Ivy for a full scholarship at a small school in NYC. He often speaks of how he regrets not attending the Ivy. When I say often, I mean he tells me that each time we speak.

For what it's worth, he went into PI.

My uncle heads a support group in Queens on Tuesday nights. BYOB.

Lmao Mathis!

I understand that taking on loan debt isn't necessarily the best option and even with that its financially impractical for some folks, but I never understood people are soo short-sighted when it comes to scholarship $. I personally would take Debt on over and over again verses going to a sub-par law school. The investment of still going through the heartache of law school is substantial and not getting any return from that aka not finding a GOOD job -- just isn't worth it in todays market

What is your definition of a subpar law school? I would not for example take a full ride at schools ranked lower than Cardozo like NYLS or other tier 3 schools that have even lower employment rates. I could've easily gotten a full ride from a T3 school with a 159 straight out of undergrad but I took time off instead, worked, paid for a prep course, studied and got a 167 so that I could be competitive at better schools or at least get a full scholarship at higher ranked schools with better stats. I also tried to get more experience so that I can use that in gaining internships/jobs during and after law school, even if the school that I go to isn't the highest ranked school.

[silverdoe91]

So far I like the classes but I have found there are a lot of competitive students in my class which makes it less likely than I thought to graduate at the top of my class. I think they got a better group of students than usual this year because it's their first year giving out unconditional scholarships. I also realized they have a new policy that doesn't allow you to be on a team and a journal at the same time which I was not aware of till now. So now I'm considering what my options are regarding dropping out, and I came here for advice.

The semester isn't even half way yet. If you're legit considering dropping out, I'd say at least wait and see how you do in your classes. Don't just give up right at the start. Law school is competitive, and even if your classmates seem smart, doesn't mean they'll be at the top of the class. So if dropping out is a serious consideration, wait. If you intend to drop out and reapply to schools with a better LSAT score, i'm not sure how that works so someone else will have to answer that.

Also, pertaining to my other post that you wrote back to. I'm not saying you WON'T get a job, I'm just saying it will be difficult. I mean, there's at least some dozo grads who can't find a job at all, but there's the other part of grads that find a job after being out of school for a while. From my research that I've done (I was considering cardozo back when I barely knew much about law school admissions, employment, etc.), cardozo only places like what, 30% of students into jobs at graduation? Plus, what really turned me off about dozo was that whole program thing they had for small/mid sized firms to hire their grads for a year with shitty pay or something like that.

Either way, whatever you end up doing, good luck OP.

But if I wait for my grades to come in won't it officially be on my record? And if I do badly won't it be looked down on by admissions committees or future employers?

I actually like their RAMP program because even though the salary is 38k a year (super low) it's not bad if you have $0 loans to pay off, you get experience, and it's a million times better than Fordham's stipend program that only gives you $1000 a month for interning at a nonprofit post-graduation. :/

[Rupert Pupkin]

I had an uncle that turned down a lower T14 Ivy for a full scholarship at a small school in NYC. He often speaks of how he regrets not attending the Ivy. When I say often, I mean he tells me that each time we speak.

For what it's worth, he went into PI.

My uncle heads a support group in Queens on Tuesday nights. BYOB.

Lmao Mathis!

I understand that taking on loan debt isn't necessarily the best option and even with that its financially impractical for some folks, but I never understood people are soo short-sighted when it comes to scholarship $. I personally would take Debt on over and over again verses going to a sub-par law school. The investment of still going through the heartache of law school is substantial and not getting any return from that aka not finding a GOOD job -- just isn't worth it in todays market

What is your definition of a subpar law school? I would not for example take a full ride at schools ranked lower than Cardozo like NYLS or other tier 3 schools that have even lower employment rates. I could've easily gotten a full ride from a T3 school with a 159 straight out of undergrad but I took time off instead, worked, paid for a prep course, studied and got a 167 so that I could be competitive at better schools or at least get a full scholarship at higher ranked schools with better stats. I also tried to get more experience so that I can use that in gaining internships/jobs during and after law school, even if the school that I go to isn't the highest ranked school.

IMO- anything less than T14. My point is not that you are a loser if you go to anything less than T14, but if you are smart enough to get into T14 you should absolutely go because the reality of today's world is business is extremely competitive and especially the legal market. There are so so many LS graduates and really what separates one from the other (getting a job wise) is the school they graduated from. From a job perspective, seems to be that pedigree is everything. Now obviously, you have to perform well at those schools too and there is more to the equation but Im just evaluating from a pedigree name standpoint..Also, not to mention the resources and the caliber of professors teaching at these Top Universities--Law school is a feast of knowledge and resources. I wouldn't want to pass that up! The world is too competitive and ruthless, imo, to let go of an opportunity like that. If you are able to be in X position or Y position and one of those puts you in a better spot to achieve your career and life goals, I would choose that opportunity. And I feel like a Scholarship really isn't going to affect too much in the long-term.. Even if it only makes a marginal difference, I think its worth it. In your case, I would say Cornell vs. the other schools you mentioned is more than a marginal difference (hence 258 ppl voted in your poll to go to Cornell vs. 8 or so). There are some extremely intelligent people at lower tier schools, but they struggle to get a job that truly represents what they are worth as a professional. They are fighting to simply get a "job" out of school.. yet they worked so hard to become an Attorney. They are very bright and have been successful throughout their lives. That just doesn't make sense to me.

I want to start a career and put my best efforts forward. I don't want to graduate and beg for some "job" just to pay the bills. I thought about scholarships in Undergrad and that was where i made a decision to save some money and decided that Graduate School/Law School was the time to take on loans for the best school I could possibly get into. I'm set on BigLAw which is a little different than your career goals... but, I reckon its a similar situation across the boards.

I'm sure in the end-- you will make the best decision for yourself! Best of Luck OP!

[silverdoe91]

I had an uncle that turned down a lower T14 Ivy for a full scholarship at a small school in NYC. He often speaks of how he regrets not attending the Ivy. When I say often, I mean he tells me that each time we speak.

For what it's worth, he went into PI.

My uncle heads a support group in Queens on Tuesday nights. BYOB.

Lmao Mathis!

I understand that taking on loan debt isn't necessarily the best option and even with that its financially impractical for some folks, but I never understood people are soo short-sighted when it comes to scholarship $. I personally would take Debt on over and over again verses going to a sub-par law school. The investment of still going through the heartache of law school is substantial and not getting any return from that aka not finding a GOOD job -- just isn't worth it in todays market

What is your definition of a subpar law school? I would not for example take a full ride at schools ranked lower than Cardozo like NYLS or other tier 3 schools that have even lower employment rates. I could've easily gotten a full ride from a T3 school with a 159 straight out of undergrad but I took time off instead, worked, paid for a prep course, studied and got a 167 so that I could be competitive at better schools or at least get a full scholarship at higher ranked schools with better stats. I also tried to get more experience so that I can use that in gaining internships/jobs during and after law school, even if the school that I go to isn't the highest ranked school.

IMO- anything less than T14. My point is not that you are a loser if you go to anything less than T14, but if you are smart enough to get into T14 you should absolutely go because the reality of today's world is business is extremely competitive and especially the legal market. There are so so many LS graduates and really what separates one from the other (getting a job wise) is the school they graduated from. From a job perspective, seems to be that pedigree is everything. Now obviously, you have to perform well at those schools too and there is more to the equation but Im just evaluating from a pedigree name standpoint..Also, not to mention the resources and the caliber of professors teaching at these Top Universities--Law school is a feast of knowledge and resources. I wouldn't want to pass that up! The world is too competitive and ruthless, imo, to let go of an opportunity like that. There are some extremely intelligent people at lower tier schools, but they struggle to get a job that truly represents what they are worth as a professional. They are fighting to simply get a "job" out of school.. yet they worked so hard to become an Attorney. They are very bright and have been successful throughout their lives. That just doesn't make sense to me.

I want to start a career and put my best efforts forward. I don't want to graduate and beg for some "job" just to pay the bills. I thought about scholarships in Undergrad and that was where i made a decision to save some money and decided that Graduate School/Law School was the time to take on loans for the best school I could possibly get into. I'm set on BigLAw which is a little different than your career goals... but, I reckon its a similar across the boards.

I'm sure in the end-- you will make the best decision for yourself!

The quality of education and professors seems to be about the same across all schools. Most of my professors at Cardozo are Harvard/Yale grads we even have a judge from Harvard law who is an adjunct. The classes have been very intellectually engaging so far, and many people on this board have attested that education is pretty much the same no matter what law school you go to. The only difference I've been told is what kinds of job opportunities are open to you. So of course if you're set on BigLaw going a top school would be necessary and taking out loans would not be a problem.

However, it gets a little murky when it comes to other fields of law. Based on what I've learned so far, it seems that most other fields of law are not as focused on the ranking of your school but rather what experience you have either prior to law school, during via clinics or internships, or even after. I've seen people in media and public interest law from lower ranked schools than even Cardozo, so I figured it would be worthwhile to save money, especially if I could try to be at the top of my class. But that seems a bit unlikely now that I've seen my classmates plus I am worried about high profile PI positions which I didn't think would be worth taking on 100k in debt but now I'm wondering if maybe it would be.

[Rupert Pupkin]

I had an uncle that turned down a lower T14 Ivy for a full scholarship at a small school in NYC. He often speaks of how he regrets not attending the Ivy. When I say often, I mean he tells me that each time we speak.

For what it's worth, he went into PI.

My uncle heads a support group in Queens on Tuesday nights. BYOB.

Lmao Mathis!

I understand that taking on loan debt isn't necessarily the best option and even with that its financially impractical for some folks, but I never understood people are soo short-sighted when it comes to scholarship $. I personally would take Debt on over and over again verses going to a sub-par law school. The investment of still going through the heartache of law school is substantial and not getting any return from that aka not finding a GOOD job -- just isn't worth it in todays market

What is your definition of a subpar law school? I would not for example take a full ride at schools ranked lower than Cardozo like NYLS or other tier 3 schools that have even lower employment rates. I could've easily gotten a full ride from a T3 school with a 159 straight out of undergrad but I took time off instead, worked, paid for a prep course, studied and got a 167 so that I could be competitive at better schools or at least get a full scholarship at higher ranked schools with better stats. I also tried to get more experience so that I can use that in gaining internships/jobs during and after law school, even if the school that I go to isn't the highest ranked school.

IMO- anything less than T14. My point is not that you are a loser if you go to anything less than T14, but if you are smart enough to get into T14 you should absolutely go because the reality of today's world is business is extremely competitive and especially the legal market. There are so so many LS graduates and really what separates one from the other (getting a job wise) is the school they graduated from. From a job perspective, seems to be that pedigree is everything. Now obviously, you have to perform well at those schools too and there is more to the equation but Im just evaluating from a pedigree name standpoint..Also, not to mention the resources and the caliber of professors teaching at these Top Universities--Law school is a feast of knowledge and resources. I wouldn't want to pass that up! The world is too competitive and ruthless, imo, to let go of an opportunity like that. There are some extremely intelligent people at lower tier schools, but they struggle to get a job that truly represents what they are worth as a professional. They are fighting to simply get a "job" out of school.. yet they worked so hard to become an Attorney. They are very bright and have been successful throughout their lives. That just doesn't make sense to me.

I want to start a career and put my best efforts forward. I don't want to graduate and beg for some "job" just to pay the bills. I thought about scholarships in Undergrad and that was where i made a decision to save some money and decided that Graduate School/Law School was the time to take on loans for the best school I could possibly get into. I'm set on BigLAw which is a little different than your career goals... but, I reckon its a similar across the boards.

I'm sure in the end-- you will make the best decision for yourself!

The quality of education and professors seems to be about the same across all schools. Most of my professors at Cardozo are Harvard/Yale grads we even have a judge from Harvard law who is an adjunct. The classes have been very intellectually engaging so far, and many people on this board have attested that education is pretty much the same no matter what law school you go to. The only difference I've been told is what kinds of job opportunities are open to you. So of course if you're set on BigLaw going a top school would be necessary and taking out loans would not be a problem.

However, it gets a little murky when it comes to other fields of law. Based on what I've learned so far, it seems that most other fields of law are not as focused on the ranking of your school but rather what experience you have either prior to law school, during via clinics or internships, or even after. I've seen people in media and public interest law from lower ranked schools than even Cardozo, so I figured it would be worthwhile to save money, especially if I could try to be at the top of my class. But that seems a bit unlikely now that I've seen my classmates plus I am worried about high profile PI positions which I didn't think would be worth taking on 100k in debt but now I'm wondering if maybe it would be.

Fair enough. We are interested in different fields and it sounds like you have done your research. Are the internships that help you get the job you want achievable from a lower tier school like Cordozo available to you (is this something that their students are able to get; or is it the 1 in 100 that do)? because honestly, Internships are just as hard as Jobs-- if not the same thing. I think taking on 100k debt from a lower school than T14 is a completely different animal than taking on debt from a t14 school. And I have to disagree with you on the education being the same. And I don't think anyone regrets the education they got from T14 school. Now, if you were deciding between school rank no. 3 and no. 10 and we are discussing choosing the latter because of scholarship opportunity that can be a very different discussion and situation than the one you are in now.

[pancakes3]

Whether a school is subpar or not isn't dependent on the quality of education. The problem is that the supply of law students massively outstrips demand. When you've got 30,000 law graduates and only 15,000 job openings every year, you've got to make decisions at the margin as to who gets hired. Preference goes to top law schools, and those with top grades. It has nothing to do with your ability to do the job.

It'd be like if you had a family size bag of m&m's, but only wanted to eat 10. How do you choose? Randomly? Maybe you just choose the m&ms that attended a top m&m school and did well at those schools. This isn't to say that m&ms who attended lower ranked schools are bad m&m's, but you only want 10 and this seems more fair than picking m&ms at random.

OP, you had Cornell at half and every single person here told you to take it. You didn't. That's not just "taking the advice but with a grain of salt." That's a complete disregard for the advice.

[Barack O'Drama]

Whether a school is subpar or not isn't dependent on the quality of education. The problem is that the supply of law students massively outstrips demand. When you've got 30,000 law graduates and only 15,000 job openings every year, you've got to make decisions at the margin as to who gets hired. Preference goes to top law schools, and those with top grades. It has nothing to do with your ability to do the job.

It'd be like if you had a family size bag of m&m's, but only wanted to eat 10. How do you choose? Randomly? Maybe you just choose the m&ms that attended a top m&m school and did well at those schools. This isn't to say that m&ms who attended lower ranked schools are bad m&m's, but you only want 10 and this seems more fair than picking m&ms at random.

OP, you had Cornell at half and every single person here told you to take it. You didn't. That's not just "taking the advice but with a grain of salt." That's a complete disregard for the advice.

[cavalier1138]

I think my favorite part of this inane line of reasoning is that the OP returned to solicit more advice and is now ignoring it for the exact same reasons they ignored it the first time. It's inspired me to write a short play.

"Cornell" or "Whatever, I Do What I Want"
OP: A or B, guys?
TLS: A. Definitely A.
OP: I'm not so sure. Can you give me reasons?
TLS: Yes. Here are a million.
OP: But what about C? I really wanted C and didn't get it. But I think I'd have to wait and try really hard before I could get in.
TLS: If you want C, you should try really hard and wait. But if you don't want to do that, do A.
OP: Great advice. I'm gonna go ahead and do B.

[Lights fade down. Fade up. Time has passed.]

OP: Hey guys, I'm back!
TLS: How's B going?
OP: Terrible. I think I should drop out. I probably should have listened. What do you think I should do?
TLS: You should drop out. You should try really hard, wait, and see if you can get C.
OP: I dunno... it seems like B is still a pretty great choice even though I'm now facing the exact problems everyone predicted I would. I think I should just stick with B. Also, I deeply enjoy conforming to harmful Jewish stereotypes.
[Pause]
[Pause]
[Exit, pursued by job market]

[Mikey]

i still think it's crazy how OP got half scholly with having both median numbers at Cornell and didn't take it.

OP, what do you think you will do? stay at dozo or bounce

[silverdoe91]

I had an uncle that turned down a lower T14 Ivy for a full scholarship at a small school in NYC. He often speaks of how he regrets not attending the Ivy. When I say often, I mean he tells me that each time we speak.

For what it's worth, he went into PI.

My uncle heads a support group in Queens on Tuesday nights. BYOB.

Lmao Mathis!

I understand that taking on loan debt isn't necessarily the best option and even with that its financially impractical for some folks, but I never understood people are soo short-sighted when it comes to scholarship $. I personally would take Debt on over and over again verses going to a sub-par law school. The investment of still going through the heartache of law school is substantial and not getting any return from that aka not finding a GOOD job -- just isn't worth it in todays market

What is your definition of a subpar law school? I would not for example take a full ride at schools ranked lower than Cardozo like NYLS or other tier 3 schools that have even lower employment rates. I could've easily gotten a full ride from a T3 school with a 159 straight out of undergrad but I took time off instead, worked, paid for a prep course, studied and got a 167 so that I could be competitive at better schools or at least get a full scholarship at higher ranked schools with better stats. I also tried to get more experience so that I can use that in gaining internships/jobs during and after law school, even if the school that I go to isn't the highest ranked school.

IMO- anything less than T14. My point is not that you are a loser if you go to anything less than T14, but if you are smart enough to get into T14 you should absolutely go because the reality of today's world is business is extremely competitive and especially the legal market. There are so so many LS graduates and really what separates one from the other (getting a job wise) is the school they graduated from. From a job perspective, seems to be that pedigree is everything. Now obviously, you have to perform well at those schools too and there is more to the equation but Im just evaluating from a pedigree name standpoint..Also, not to mention the resources and the caliber of professors teaching at these Top Universities--Law school is a feast of knowledge and resources. I wouldn't want to pass that up! The world is too competitive and ruthless, imo, to let go of an opportunity like that. There are some extremely intelligent people at lower tier schools, but they struggle to get a job that truly represents what they are worth as a professional. They are fighting to simply get a "job" out of school.. yet they worked so hard to become an Attorney. They are very bright and have been successful throughout their lives. That just doesn't make sense to me.

I want to start a career and put my best efforts forward. I don't want to graduate and beg for some "job" just to pay the bills. I thought about scholarships in Undergrad and that was where i made a decision to save some money and decided that Graduate School/Law School was the time to take on loans for the best school I could possibly get into. I'm set on BigLAw which is a little different than your career goals... but, I reckon its a similar across the boards.

I'm sure in the end-- you will make the best decision for yourself!

The quality of education and professors seems to be about the same across all schools. Most of my professors at Cardozo are Harvard/Yale grads we even have a judge from Harvard law who is an adjunct. The classes have been very intellectually engaging so far, and many people on this board have attested that education is pretty much the same no matter what law school you go to. The only difference I've been told is what kinds of job opportunities are open to you. So of course if you're set on BigLaw going a top school would be necessary and taking out loans would not be a problem.

However, it gets a little murky when it comes to other fields of law. Based on what I've learned so far, it seems that most other fields of law are not as focused on the ranking of your school but rather what experience you have either prior to law school, during via clinics or internships, or even after. I've seen people in media and public interest law from lower ranked schools than even Cardozo, so I figured it would be worthwhile to save money, especially if I could try to be at the top of my class. But that seems a bit unlikely now that I've seen my classmates plus I am worried about high profile PI positions which I didn't think would be worth taking on 100k in debt but now I'm wondering if maybe it would be.

Fair enough. We are interested in different fields and it sounds like you have done your research. Are the internships that help you get the job you want achievable from a lower tier school like Cordozo available to you (is this something that their students are able to get; or is it the 1 in 100 that do)? because honestly, Internships are just as hard as Jobs-- if not the same thing. I think taking on 100k debt from a lower school than T14 is a completely different animal than taking on debt from a t14 school. And I have to disagree with you on the education being the same. And I don't think anyone regrets the education they got from T14 school. Now, if you were deciding between school rank no. 3 and no. 10 and we are discussing choosing the latter because of scholarship opportunity that can be a very different discussion and situation than the one you are in now.

Cardozo students get great internships that's not the problem; I did some research on LinkedIn in August and I saw that a lot of people who interned at great places ended up not working there after after graduating (but did get jobs elsewhere.) So I'm wondering if it's because internships are free labor so they're willing to take more people whereas they have less spots open for actual jobs so they're more competitive and harder to get for Cardozo students. Either that or the students chose not to work where they interned and decided to work elsewhere.

[silverdoe91]

I think my favorite part of this inane line of reasoning is that the OP returned to solicit more advice and is now ignoring it for the exact same reasons they ignored it the first time. It's inspired me to write a short play.

"Cornell" or "Whatever, I Do What I Want"
OP: A or B, guys?
TLS: A. Definitely A.
OP: I'm not so sure. Can you give me reasons?
TLS: Yes. Here are a million.
OP: But what about C? I really wanted C and didn't get it. But I think I'd have to wait and try really hard before I could get in.
TLS: If you want C, you should try really hard and wait. But if you don't want to do that, do A.
OP: Great advice. I'm gonna go ahead and do B.

[Lights fade down. Fade up. Time has passed.]

OP: Hey guys, I'm back!
TLS: How's B going?
OP: Terrible. I think I should drop out. I probably should have listened. What do you think I should do?
TLS: You should drop out. You should try really hard, wait, and see if you can get C.
OP: I dunno... it seems like B is still a pretty great choice even though I'm now facing the exact problems everyone predicted I would. I think I should just stick with B. Also, I deeply enjoy conforming to harmful Jewish stereotypes.
[Pause]
[Pause]
[Exit, pursued by job market]

Lol, that was pretty funny! Although I don't quite get the "conforming to harmful Jewish stereotypes" part. Are you saying I'm cheap? And if so, is that a bad thing? I don't consider it to be bad personally.

Also, your play, as amusing as it is, misses some crucial facts. Like you know, the fact that I don't have enough time to "try really hard" and reapply to NYU before their scholarship deadline in January.

[Barack O'Drama]

I think my favorite part of this inane line of reasoning is that the OP returned to solicit more advice and is now ignoring it for the exact same reasons they ignored it the first time. It's inspired me to write a short play.

"Cornell" or "Whatever, I Do What I Want"
OP: A or B, guys?
TLS: A. Definitely A.
OP: I'm not so sure. Can you give me reasons?
TLS: Yes. Here are a million.
OP: But what about C? I really wanted C and didn't get it. But I think I'd have to wait and try really hard before I could get in.
TLS: If you want C, you should try really hard and wait. But if you don't want to do that, do A.
OP: Great advice. I'm gonna go ahead and do B.

[Lights fade down. Fade up. Time has passed.]

OP: Hey guys, I'm back!
TLS: How's B going?
OP: Terrible. I think I should drop out. I probably should have listened. What do you think I should do?
TLS: You should drop out. You should try really hard, wait, and see if you can get C.
OP: I dunno... it seems like B is still a pretty great choice even though I'm now facing the exact problems everyone predicted I would. I think I should just stick with B. Also, I deeply enjoy conforming to harmful Jewish stereotypes.
[Pause]
[Pause]
[Exit, pursued by job market]

[A. Nony Mouse]

Cardozo students get great internships that's not the problem; I did some research on LinkedIn in August and I saw that a lot of people who interned at great places ended up not working there after after graduating (but did get jobs elsewhere.) So I'm wondering if it's because internships are free labor so they're willing to take more people whereas they have less spots open for actual jobs so they're more competitive and harder to get for Cardozo students. Either that or the students chose not to work where they interned and decided to work elsewhere.

That is exactly what happens. Getting internships during school is helpful experience but not at all indicative that you will get a job with that employer for after graduation (my sense is that this is especially true for PI). It's much easier to give away free labor than get paid.

[silverdoe91]

Cardozo students get great internships that's not the problem; I did some research on LinkedIn in August and I saw that a lot of people who interned at great places ended up not working there after after graduating (but did get jobs elsewhere.) So I'm wondering if it's because internships are free labor so they're willing to take more people whereas they have less spots open for actual jobs so they're more competitive and harder to get for Cardozo students. Either that or the students chose not to work where they interned and decided to work elsewhere.

That is exactly what happens. Getting internships during school is helpful experience but not at all indicative that you will get a job with that employer for after graduation (my sense is that this is especially true for PI). It's much easier to give away free labor than get paid.

They have other jobs, so that's comforting. I haven't found anyone on LinkedIn who graduated and doesn't have a job. Then again, those people might not have a LinkedIn...but you'd think if they were looking for a job they would?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Unless they didn't want people to know they didn't have a job yet. Or they just don't like LinkedIn. It's a useful resource but you are not going to be able to discover the outcomes for any entire class through LinkedIn.

[ZVBXRPL]

Two words: oy vey.

[cavalier1138]

I think my favorite part of this inane line of reasoning is that the OP returned to solicit more advice and is now ignoring it for the exact same reasons they ignored it the first time. It's inspired me to write a short play.

"Cornell" or "Whatever, I Do What I Want"
OP: A or B, guys?
TLS: A. Definitely A.
OP: I'm not so sure. Can you give me reasons?
TLS: Yes. Here are a million.
OP: But what about C? I really wanted C and didn't get it. But I think I'd have to wait and try really hard before I could get in.
TLS: If you want C, you should try really hard and wait. But if you don't want to do that, do A.
OP: Great advice. I'm gonna go ahead and do B.

[Lights fade down. Fade up. Time has passed.]

OP: Hey guys, I'm back!
TLS: How's B going?
OP: Terrible. I think I should drop out. I probably should have listened. What do you think I should do?
TLS: You should drop out. You should try really hard, wait, and see if you can get C.
OP: I dunno... it seems like B is still a pretty great choice even though I'm now facing the exact problems everyone predicted I would. I think I should just stick with B. Also, I deeply enjoy conforming to harmful Jewish stereotypes.
[Pause]
[Pause]
[Exit, pursued by job market]

Lol, that was pretty funny! Although I don't quite get the "conforming to harmful Jewish stereotypes" part. Are you saying I'm cheap? And if so, is that a bad thing? I don't consider it to be bad personally.

Also, your play, as amusing as it is, misses some crucial facts. Like you know, the fact that I don't have enough time to "try really hard" and reapply to NYU before their scholarship deadline in January.

You're a Jew who wants to be a lawyer but doesn't want to spend so very much or have to be too far away from home. The only thing you're missing is a nice doctor for a husband.

But that aside, let's talk about that crucial fact: you don't have time. What is going to happen between now and next cycle that prevents you from waiting for the next round of apps? More importantly, the reason that you wouldn't be able to get an app in early this cycle is because you didn't listen to anyone on this thread and decided to not bother with a retake.

You keep trying to find these examples of Cardozo grads you've met who got jobs. I just don't understand how you think that contradicts the hard statistic that you are ignoring about a third of graduates in doing so. You also haven't been specific about your goals at all. At the start of this thread, you wanted high level PI with the chance at biglaw. Now you say that you only want regional PI. If you haven't made up your mind, Cardozo will do it for you: you will only be able to do regional work, and probably not the really good type.

[NUDad]

Two words: oy vey.

Two more words: Uff da.

[Rupert Pupkin]

I think my favorite part of this inane line of reasoning is that the OP returned to solicit more advice and is now ignoring it for the exact same reasons they ignored it the first time. It's inspired me to write a short play.

"Cornell" or "Whatever, I Do What I Want"
OP: A or B, guys?
TLS: A. Definitely A.
OP: I'm not so sure. Can you give me reasons?
TLS: Yes. Here are a million.
OP: But what about C? I really wanted C and didn't get it. But I think I'd have to wait and try really hard before I could get in.
TLS: If you want C, you should try really hard and wait. But if you don't want to do that, do A.
OP: Great advice. I'm gonna go ahead and do B.

[Lights fade down. Fade up. Time has passed.]

OP: Hey guys, I'm back!
TLS: How's B going?
OP: Terrible. I think I should drop out. I probably should have listened. What do you think I should do?
TLS: You should drop out. You should try really hard, wait, and see if you can get C.
OP: I dunno... it seems like B is still a pretty great choice even though I'm now facing the exact problems everyone predicted I would. I think I should just stick with B. Also, I deeply enjoy conforming to harmful Jewish stereotypes.
[Pause]
[Pause]
[Exit, pursued by job market]

LOLOL Spot on

[ponderingmeerkat]

Just here to say this thread has been a source of enjoyment and entertainment for the last few months. It was awesome to see it back on top of the stack again.

Keep in touch OP.

[jbagelboy]

I decided to go for Cardozo because of the unconditional full scholarship they gave me and they have many programs/clinics I like.

I would've taken a year off to reapply to NYU but I was working all summer so I didn't have enough time to study for the LSAT and I'm not prepared to take it in September. If I wait to take it in December, I would miss the application deadline for their scholarships, and I don't want to pay sticker for all 3 years.

I noticed that my classmates at Cardozo are very bright (some coming from NYU, Barnard, even Harvard) so it would be difficult to be in the top percent of my class as many of you have indicated. So transferring might be difficult if it's even possible at all. Also, I learned during orientation that apparently they have a new policy where you're not allowed to be on both the moot court team and a journal. I wanted to have the opportunity to be on both, but it seems that's not an option anymore. I've been considering dropping out, but if I do that will it stay on my record and ruin my chances at admission at other law schools?

For the record, I'd rather not drop out because I like my classes and not taking out loans. Plus I figure a 67% employment rate for full time legal jobs is not so bad. But now that I see how competitive my classmates are I'm a bit worried about my job prospects, since many of you have indicated that it is important to be in the top percentage of your class for some jobs if you are coming from a Tier 2 school.

Quoted for posterity.

OP, I have no idea of your age, race, gender, etc., but in my mind's eye, you are Gob Bluth after making a terrible mistake. Just magnificent.

To at least try to help (although you've already shown that you don't really do the whole "advice" thing), dropping out of a law school before you have any posted grades will not be a significant problem down the line. It may raise some eyebrows, and you probably won't get into Cardozo again (then again, beggars can't be choosers). But it won't be as bad as you're thinking.

Lol at the Gob Bluth reference. My life really has felt like an arrested development episode lately.

If I drop out, will it show up anywhere on my record? I know in law school applications they'll ask me if I've ever been to a law school before, and I'll have to explain on there why I dropped out.

I'm a middle eastern female immigrant. People in my community do not go away for college, and they try not to spend too much money on education unless they absolutely have to. I have a cousin who turned down NYU and Columbia for NYLS. I figured getting Cardozo at a full scholarship would at least be better than that. I'm also Jewish so Cardozo's policy of having days off on Jewish holidays is pretty helpful.

I guess the reason why it's difficult for me to take the advice given on here is because I don't relate to the people on here as much. I have a presumably different socioeconomic status and different goals in life (I don't need a corporate or federal job; regional is fine for me.) I've also heard contradicting advice from others outside of this board. So it's not that I don't want to take the advice given to me on here, I just question how applicable it is given my particular situation.

you are an actual crazy person. as is your cousin, maybe it runs in the family. that's really all I can contribute at this point. I can't believe I spent so much time trying to talk this decision through to you both ITT and in private messages. you should be ashamed for wasting good peoples' time.

and you are completely wrong about the socioeconomic or demographic differences between us.