Final Decision: Northwestern ($$$$) v. Duke ($$$) v. UVA ($$$) v. Chicago ($$) v. Harvard ($) Forum

[lawkools]

NU: $165K
Duke: $150K
UVA: $120K
UChi: $90K
Harvard: $50K

LSAT: ~172
GPA: ~3.75

I have finally heard from and have maxed out negotiations from all schools. These are my best offers that I'm deciding between. Right now NU is in front as I loved the visit, $$$$, and have family in Chicago. I also really enjoyed my Duke visit and like the idea of living in the south. Haven't visited, but I know H is H. I also, haven't seen UVA either and I thought that my UChi visit was just ok (would be the closest to my family though). But most important to me is opportunity cost, as I want to follow my dreams without being drowned in debt. My dream is to do appellate/high impact PI litigation. I know that these require clerkships, so I'd like to aim for as high of one as possible (COA/SCOTUS). I also wouldn't want things like working for the DOJ to be off the table, and don't want to put a ceiling on my career. I don't want to come off pretentious, as I know these are long shot opportunities, but these are the dreams I'll try my hardest to pursue. I had previously narrowed my choice down to NU and Duke, but am not sure how this will effect my long term career options. How much would I forgo by choosing a school like NU or Duke over H/Chi/UVA?

I have until Wednesday (5/4/16) to decide, any thoughts?

[cavalier1138]

If you're angling for a high-level clerkship, then I'd say UVA or Harvard are your best bets, especially if you still want SCOTUS to be on the table. It's not that it would be entirely impossible to get a SCOTUS spot from the other choices, but it probably ain't happening. Chicago's great, but my understanding is that they're better for academia-track jobs.

Based entirely on the money, I'd choose UVA. But if you're willing to take on the debt and rely on their LRAP program (which is a really good one), Harvard will give you a lot of opportunities in the areas you're interested in.

[Draconem]

Harvard.

[existentialcrisis]

If you're angling for a high-level clerkship, then I'd say UVA or Harvard are your best bets, especially if you still want SCOTUS to be on the table. It's not that it would be entirely impossible to get a SCOTUS spot from the other choices, but it probably ain't happening. Chicago's great, but my understanding is that they're better for academia-track jobs.

Based entirely on the money, I'd choose UVA. But if you're willing to take on the debt and rely on their LRAP program (which is a really good one), Harvard will give you a lot of opportunities in the areas you're interested in.

I would be absolutely shocked if it's easier to get a feeder clerkship from UVA than Chicago.

This is a really tough call. Harvard gives you the best shot at your unicorn goals but is very expensive . I'd probably take NU here, but I also think Chi might be an ok middle ground between maximizing options cost. Unfortunately Chicago is requires a lot of debt.

The part about Chicago being geared towards academia is definitely wrong.

[kcdc1]

Blatant UVA trolling above.

SCOTUS clerkship is very unlikely to happen from any school, although maybe H gives you a slightly better shot. I understand that you want to keep the possibility open and that it gives you something to strive for; I just wouldn't recommend making your decision on the difference between a 0.2% percent chance at a SCOTUS clerkship and a 0.5% chance.

COA clerkships are a different story--they're very much achievable from any of the school's you have listed. I'm a 3L at Northwestern, and my friends who were interested in COA clerkships got offers. (They had roughly top 10% grades or better, and I don't know how many of my friends would have been interested but lacked the grades.) It's possible that a COA clerkship is easier to land from some of these schools (I can only speak to my experience at NU), but it's certainly an achievable goal from any of these schools.

FWIW, I like Northwestern. People have been universally nice to me, and the school has mostly given me better grades than I deserve which makes my resume look a lot better.

[KissMyAxe]

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[kcdc1]

I won't respond to all of the above except to say that a person who makes it a priority to land a COA clerkship has a much better chance to do so than the general population at any given school. There's huge selection bias in the numbers you're citing. Applicants with top credentials often have a choice between going to a top-ranked school with a small discount or a lower T14 school with a large discount. If they want to clerk, they often choose the former. If they want to make 160k and bounce in-house, they take the tuition discount.

Obviously, I can only offer my own anecdotal experience. My sense is that if you want to clerk, you can do so from a school like Northwestern (assuming you work hard and happen to have a talent for law school exams). My guess is that it's somewhat easier to clerk from more prestigious schools, but the selection bias issues make it difficult to say.

I'd also add that Duke seems like a good choice here unless you prefer Chicago. Durham's dirt-cheap, so cost of attendance would likely be lower at Duke than NU.

One more thing to consider is grading policy. This is a sneaky factor that I think makes a big difference in quality of life. NU pretends to curve, but probably 75% of my classes have been uncurved. That's helpful for GPA purposes, but it also makes people friendlier and stress levels lower. I don't know the other schools' policies, but it's worth looking into.

[KissMyAxe]

Post Deleted

[kcdc1]

However, what's your explanation of Vandy, Notre Dame, UGA, Alabama, Texas, and USC? All of them have had higher COA rates than Northwestern at least twice in the past four years.

My point really wasn't about Northwestern--I just wanted to say that prestigious clerkships are a feasible goal coming from any of the schools on OP's list. I commented on Northwestern because I happen to know people who got COA clerkships out of the school.

The thing about being proud of my alma mater is silly and a bit condescending.

[Dr. Nefario]

OP is the award for Harvard 50K for your first year or 50K if you got your first year award all three years?

[QuentonCassidy]

OP is the award for Harvard 50K for your first year or 50K if you got your first year award all three years?

Definitely the latter (or at least not the former)

[jbagelboy]

.

[kumquat3]

However, what's your explanation of Vandy, Notre Dame, UGA, Alabama, Texas, and USC? All of them have had higher COA rates than Northwestern at least twice in the past four years. I wouldn't say they're more prestigious.

Unfounded question: might they, in part, have higher numbers of strong conservatives students to feed to ideologically aligned COA judges?

[jbagelboy]

However, what's your explanation of Vandy, Notre Dame, UGA, Alabama, Texas, and USC? All of them have had higher COA rates than Northwestern at least twice in the past four years. I wouldn't say they're more prestigious.

Unfounded question: might they, in part, have higher numbers of strong conservatives students to feed to ideologically aligned COA judges?

No. These schools have local alumni judges and coastal T14 students don't apply to flyover circuits.

[eph]

Harvard. Just comparing N to H is H worth 115k more. Yes specifically given your stated goals. If you wanted big law particularly in Chicago then probably no. If you really want to go to school in Chicago and you seem to have good reasons to then Chicago.

[kcdc1]

However, what's your explanation of Vandy, Notre Dame, UGA, Alabama, Texas, and USC? All of them have had higher COA rates than Northwestern at least twice in the past four years. I wouldn't say they're more prestigious.

Unfounded question: might they, in part, have higher numbers of strong conservatives students to feed to ideologically aligned COA judges?

It's probably a combination of statistical noise, selection bias (Northwestern has reputation as a business-focused law school, and it also attracts older applicants), and institutional priorities (Northwestern largely is a business-focused law school). People have told me that the school has started putting more resources into clerkship placements in recent years, but I have no direct knowledge that this is true. In any event, the resources are currently there if you want to use them.

Also, even assuming Northwestern consistently places less clerks than a handful of non-T14 schools, that doesn't imply that it's difficult to clerk coming out of Northwestern. People have different priorities. As another anecdotal example, I'm personally litigation focused with decent enough grades, and I'm not clerking because I have a family and I don't think the prestige boost justifies the income hit. My decision hurts Northwestern's clerkship statistics, but I'm achieving exactly the outcome that I want.

[guynourmin]

With your goals I'd imagine H/Chicago has to be the way to go. And I don't mean because you might have a slightly better chance at SCOTUS - I think if you're the type of person to get SCOTUS out of H you could probably manage it out of Duke, but I don't think that trickles down to prestigious COA, DOJ honors, etc, and there you'll have a real leg up from H or Chicago. Between those two, the money isn't that different and if you're successful in your goals LRAP will probably be similar and if you aren't and end up in big law the debt will suck either way, so I'd probably go H. With the goals you've stated, if that is truly what you want to do, I think you should give yourself every opportunity to be successful. If you're not 100% committed to the goals you've stated here, then go as cheap as possible, which is likely Duke.

[star fox]

However, what's your explanation of Vandy, Notre Dame, UGA, Alabama, Texas, and USC? All of them have had higher COA rates than Northwestern at least twice in the past four years. I wouldn't say they're more prestigious.

Unfounded question: might they, in part, have higher numbers of strong conservatives students to feed to ideologically aligned COA judges?

It's probably a combination of statistical noise, selection bias (Northwestern has reputation as a business-focused law school, and it also attracts older applicants), and institutional priorities (Northwestern largely is a business-focused law school). People have told me that the school has started putting more resources into clerkship placements in recent years, but I have no direct knowledge that this is true. In any event, the resources are currently there if you want to use them.

Also, even assuming Northwestern consistently places less clerks than a handful of non-T14 schools, that doesn't imply that it's difficult to clerk coming out of Northwestern. People have different priorities. As another anecdotal example, I'm personally litigation focused with decent enough grades, and I'm not clerking because I have a family and I don't think the prestige boost justifies the income hit. My decision hurts Northwestern's clerkship statistics, but I'm achieving exactly the outcome that I want.

Yeah, agreed, can't speak for other schools but I've heard on multiple occasions that Northwestern students have a higher proportion of transactional focused students and those people aren't going to be particularly interested in Clerking.

[KissMyAxe]

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[lawkools]

Wow, thanks for all the insight everyone. I really wanted this thread to confirm my decision to go to NU and maybe Duke, but this has made it all the more difficult lol. I'm really not worried about my chances going from .005 to .01 for my goals, I just want to make sure they are attainable and im not putting an impenatrable ceiling of a lack of prestige upon myself. And if that's not the case, it seems outlandish to give up the money I have at schools that don't seem to be so far off from Harvard in NU and Duke.

Furthermore, I feel like if it's in the cards, it won't be my decision to choose NU/D over H that did it, but maybe I'm wrong [which it sounds lIke I am from the replies]. As it stands I'm between NU, Duke and H, basically money or an extra boost of prestige.

And to answer a poster above, all of the totals are scholarships over the full 3 years [so for H, $50k over 3 years].

[kcdc1]

As it stands I'm between NU, Duke and H, basically money or an extra boost of prestige.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll be happy with any of these choices. FWIW, I also went to Duke for undergrad. Beautiful school, and the weather is way better than Chicago. I know nothing about the law school. Feel free to PM me if you want more info about NU.

There is zero evidence to support the claim that OP will be able to achieve this as easily at Northwestern as at the other schools.

Nobody made this claim. Relax.

[Ohiobumpkin]

If you are planning on doing PI work, would that qualify you for HLS's LRAP program? If so, H might be the right choice then, since your debt will be largely forgiven. LRAP aside, however, I would split the baby down the middle and go with Duke. It costs $100K less than H, but gives you a significant boost to clerkship chances. Plus, you liked your visit and living in Raleigh-Durham will be insanely more affordable than living in Chi-town for three years.

[landshoes]

I would pick between UChi and Harvard, and given that you want to do impact litigation, I'd probably have to say H, although I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes. If you really want to be in Chicago, I'd pick UChi because I think location can make a big difference in your ability to perform in law school.

I would also look at the clinics that UChi and HLS offer. Depending on what kind of litigation you want to do, we have a few great clinics that you might be interested in, like the Civil Rights and Police Accountability Project. However, I'm very sure that HLS has great clinical opportunities, too. I am not as familiar with NU but I would check and see what they have available.

I don't agree that Raleigh-Durham is that much more affordable than UChi, given that you have to have a car, but I don't know that much about it. It didn't seem more affordable when I was deciding between Duke and UChi.

Good luck, you have a lot of great options.

[wons]

I think NW or Duke would be a grave mistake here. NW is really good at getting people midtier biglaw jobs; it's not a place I'd go to shoot for high-end biglaw, let alone a top clerkship. Duke's just not that great - I see so few Duke people compared to UVA people, and getting a high-end job out of UVA itself ain't easy.

The SCOTUS figures in this thread tell the story: top schools' best - perhaps only - advantage over schools at the bottom of the T14 that give a shitton of aid are chances at high-end jobs. Some people don't put a ton of weight on "high-end" jobs: if you think all biglaw jobs are miserable and you don't want to be a fedgov trial lawyer, that's not an unreasonable position to take. (It's wrong, but not unreasonable.). Those people take the money at NW or Cornell and run and have happ(ier) lives finishing in the top third, getting a middling job pushing stacks of a paper for a few years to build up a nest egg and then entering the house stage of their lives - move in house and buy a house. It's not a bad path at all, and it's a hell of a lot less risky than $250K of debt for a shot at the moon. Achieving that outcome is why you would go to Duke or NW in your situation.

But it's not what an astronaut would do.

[iamgeorgebush]

Harvard without a doubt.