Thoughts on Texas A&M Law Forum

[BigZuck]

I don't think firms are allowed to not pay you

You need to focus on unpaid stuff right now- DAs, public defenders, AGs, judicial internships. By all means try to get a job at a firm too but you need to line something up ASAP.

[ScottRiqui]

I don't think firms are allowed to not pay you

You need to focus on unpaid stuff right now- DAs, public defenders, AGs, judicial internships. By all means try to get a job at a firm too but you need to line something up ASAP.

The bolded was the first thing that popped into my head (Thanks, 1L LRW memo). I don't think that any firm with a Summer Associate program in place is going to be willing to jump through the legal hoops necessary to justify converting what would normally be a paid SA position into an unpaid internship.

[favabeansoup]

1. Sorry for hijacking your thread OP
2. Thanks for the advise/info guys. I've been emailing a ton of firms in the practice area I want to get into about summer internships. Do you think I should mention in the emails that I'd be willing to work for free just to gain experience?

Never say you'd be willing to work for free. It reeks of desperation when you need to show confidence, and it's pretty legally shady for them not to pay you regardless of your consent, so bringing it up doesn't help you at all. Work you do for a firm is worth getting paid, even if it's a crappy $10/hour for a summer.

emailing a bunch of firms is great, but make sure you reach out to individual associates/partners who went to your school at those firms too. It'll at least help towards getting your name singled out from the 1000 applications they probably have from students in similar situations as you. Anything you can do to help your chances is good (except saying you'd work for free).

Just as an example that I heard recently, my personal mentor works in house and he had an opening come up in his department. They advertised it online and literally got like 300+ applications in the first two days. He pretty much ignored the majority of those out of necessity (no one has time to look through all those) and only bothered to look at ones from people who reached out personally to him or were recommended by other people he knew.

[arielsm23]

OP, I work in Dallas. I understand a lot of these advice here may seem a little insulting and rude, but honestly it is true. Do not go to Texas A&M, especially if you are not getting a much more significant to full scholarship. The debt will greatly affect your life, you are likely to do depressing types of legal work after, and your degree won't really be respected be the rest of the Texas legal community.

Dallas employers have never heard of A&M law school and know nothing about the quality of the graduates, Dallas isn't close to as big of a legal market as you think it is, especially when you compare it to other cities like NYC or LA or Chicago, hell even Houston is substantially bigger. So no, there are not enough jobs to go around for A&M grads, and the jobs that are available clearly go to UT/SMU/ and maybe UH grads before someone would think about tapping a Texas A&M grad. Even then they would need to do incredibly well to have a shot at any halfway decent job that isn't high volume parasitic personal injury work.

I don't know your age or circumstances, but you need to consider your whole future here. A&M may very well be improving, but you shouldn't ever go to a school in the hopes it will become good 10+years down the line. Take a year or two and go pursue other jobs. See if you really do want to become a lawyer and if that is your passion. Many don't do this and regret choosing this career path. Then come back and retake the LSAT and do better (I'm confident you will, nerves are something that can be handled). Even if you do slightly better you can go to UH or SMU, possibly with several scholarships. Those schools will open up 10x more doors for your entire LIFE as a lawyer in Texas than A&M ever will.

New law schools are almost always a bad investment for the first 10 years or so. Alumni are incredibly important in hiring graduates and building a professional network. Other law schools will have several alumni in leadership positions at firms or leaders in respective bar sections, while A&M won't for at least several years given how new it is. It needs much more time to develop into a school that someone without a full ride should consider. The only successful new law school is UCI, and that took a ton of work and connection pulling to get right.

I appreciate the advice. I suppose I had a misconception that the school could move up tier wise quickly and move within striking distance of Baylor perhaps within the next few years. I actually thought that they could replicate UCI's success, they seem to be investing similarly. The problem is UCI created a brand new school with no baggage and always had high admissions standards. A&M unfortunately bought a bad law school with the intent to improve it, who knows how long it will take.

[BigZuck]

UCI is a middling school without a justifiable existence but it's light years better than A&M will be for the foreseeable future, possibly ever.

[Leprechaun]

OP, unlike the others, I currently attend Aggie Law so if you have any questions you'd like me to address, feel free to message me.

1) Our OCI is poor. Quite frankly the top firms don't even participate.
2) Career services is good at letting us know of other opportunities though, and since I think I remember you mentioning you were Hispanic, there will be some opportunities for job fairs like SEMJF in Atlanta and Sunbelt Job Fair in Dallas. This will be your best chance for "BigLaw".

I am a part time night student, am a CPA, have a 23 year career (so far) and am a public official here in North Texas. I came to law school with the intention of simply getting my JD, passing the BAR and running for State District Judge in my community in the future or higher public office. My plan was to continue in my current position, practice a little law on the side, and once eligible to run, do that. I really had minimal interest in working for anyone else and had no expectation of Big Law. Keep in mind that I really didn't go to law school for the same type of things as more traditional students. However, I found out I could juggle things and still be a competitive law school student (top 2 to 10% depending on the semester) and I began to think perhaps I needed to try Big Law just to prove I could get it, however I was going to do it my way LOL and that hasn't been successful.

I'm currently a 3L with one semester remaining (I'm a part time night student with a full time job so it's taking me 7 semesters and Summers and Winters) I can tell you that the school bias is definitely real. After my 1L year, I interviewed with multiple Dallas Big Law firms and the prominent theme seemed to be along the lines of "you go to Wesleyan/A&M, how do you think that would look on our website," "tell us in your perspective what makes A&M better than Tex/Wes," etc. I didn't get any Summer Associate offers and I believe that was a combo of my interview attitude, the perception of my school, and my reluctance I would express when they would ask me if i'd be willing to work corporate tax (at that point I wanted to move away from being typecast as a CPA and was rebelling against the very thing that was probably getting me the interviews in the first place (not too bright I know but I've already got a relatively good job so I do not "need" a position in BigLaw, just wanted it for basically "ego" purposes which didn't work out too well) and I also declined when they'd ask if I'd consider any other geographic area other than Dallas. I tried again after 2L and basically had similar results ALTHOUGH there was far less negativity about my school in the interviews. Now, I've still got a few more interview opportunities coming up in July (not for Summer Associate positions and not Big Law but other post graduation positions that interest me and would be a happy career choice for me AND that I'm willing to be more flexible for) However, if I'm not successful, I'm still perfectly content falling back on the original plan. If I had been more flexible and less demanding (afterall, you really are just another number to them, there will be plenty willing to take your place on their terms) I feel that my 1L and 2L interviews would have went FAR better but no regrets.

I can tell you that I have a couple friends , that currently have Summer Associate positions and I assume their chance of being offered is just as good as other SA's. One common thread those of us share at Aggie Law that land interviews with BigLaw and/or SA positions are that we are "diverse" and well in the top 10%. That is likely a function of the job fairs being minority job fairs and the fact that it is really difficult to score an interview with the Big Law firms if you are from my school but don't participate in these fairs, or have some other connection, as once again, they do not come to our OCI as a general rule.

I thoroughly enjoy and love my school. A lot of my classmates came here with the intention of working in small to mid level firms, public interest (DA's office), as solo practitioners and some just to learn (yes, there are a few). Many of my friends here are engineers, CPA's, finance professionals, cops, retired, military and other established careers that simply have non-traditional law school goals.

IF you would be satisfied by BigLaw only, although there is a chance here, and it's moving in the right direction, go somewhere else. Even if you are brilliant, there is no guarantee you will be ranked high enough to land interviews with Big Law firms. I know a lot of smart people around here that for some reason or another, didn't figure out the law school "game" until after 1l grades and their chance to move into a ranking position for a Big Law interview is nil after that if it takes that long to figure it out.

However if you'd be happy at a mid level or small firm, or DA's office, or solo practitioner, give our school a shot. It's a great environment, TAMU is investing a lot of money into the faculty and resources, the Dean is actively working on improving the ranking and student base, and opportunities for talented graduates are opening up a lot more than before.

If you or anyone else that is interested in our school has a specific question, feel free to message me.

Good luck in your decision and I hope you make the decision that is right for YOU not for anybody else. Regarding scholarship retention, it is not nearly as hard as it used to be. My understanding is incoming students only need to maintain a 3.0 and wihen the classes curve to a 3.0 that shouldn't be hard to do, especially if you don't work full or part time like a large part of the student base does. The prior stips were much harder to hit (ie, top 25%, top 20%, etc.)

[Johann]

Texas A&M reminds me a lot of Michigan St law school when it first came out. In the 100s with some ability to climb in the 70s range. They are doing the right things, but they'll never be on par with Texas. This means biglaw is going to be an uphill battle the whole way (though not impossible).

I think A&M (like other second tier schools) is a good law school if you don't have good career prospects at the moment, you want to be a lawyer (not just a biglawyer), and you're fine hustling/networking for work. If that's the case, you aren't going to be one of the unemployed stories. It might not be glamorous, but youll be able to carve out a solid middle to upper-middle class outcome.

[84651846190]

Isn't "hustling" for a job out of a school like A&M extremely stressful/difficult? Have any of the people commenting itt actually had to do it? Seems like a lot of people are downplaying how detrimental that kind of stress, money, and time sink can have on your life. It's basically life altering in a negative, irreparable way for many people who I know, even at higher ranked (and even T14) schools.

Then again, I graduated during grimmer times, so maybe things are better now.

[kellyfrost]

Whenever I think of A&M, I think of Johnny Football. One of the greatest college players of all-time.

[timbs4339]

I would not be surprised if the sole reason A+M is improving in the idiotic USNWR rankings (which literally ask recipients to rank all of the 150+ law schools in the country in order, like anyone really knows enough to do that) is that the name recognition of the college sport teams give it an edge. That does not translate into job prospects.

[Clearly]

I would not be surprised if the sole reason A+M is improving in the idiotic USNWR rankings (which literally ask recipients to rank all of the 150+ law schools in the country in order, like anyone really knows enough to do that) is that the name recognition of the college sport teams give it an edge. That does not translate into job prospects.

Not to defend usnwr, but this is a gross simplification of their methodology.

[bmathers]

I would not be surprised if the sole reason A+M is improving in the idiotic USNWR rankings (which literally ask recipients to rank all of the 150+ law schools in the country in order, like anyone really knows enough to do that) is that the name recognition of the college sport teams give it an edge. That does not translate into job prospects.

Not to defend usnwr, but this is a gross simplification of their methodology.

Is it? I have been told by deans that this is EXACTLY what they actually do. Hand them a paper and tell them to rank the top 150, as insane as that sounds.

[ScottRiqui]

I would not be surprised if the sole reason A+M is improving in the idiotic USNWR rankings (which literally ask recipients to rank all of the 150+ law schools in the country in order, like anyone really knows enough to do that) is that the name recognition of the college sport teams give it an edge. That does not translate into job prospects.

Not to defend usnwr, but this is a gross simplification of their methodology.

Is it? I have been told by deans that this is EXACTLY what they actually do. Hand them a paper and tell them to rank the top 150, as insane as that sounds.

Here's their methodology, complete with weights. LOL at "bar passage rate" only being 2% of the final score:

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... ethodology

[bmathers]

What they say they do and what they actually do are not always the same thing...

[bmathers]

We have 2 completely seperate reports in this thread saying the same thing.

[ScottRiqui]

What they say they do and what they actually do are not always the same thing...

"Peer assessment" *is* part of the USNWR rankings, but if you're claiming that's ALL there is to the rankings, or that the peer assessment literally requires deans to make an ordered list of 150 schools, most of which they've never heard of, then the burden's on you to provide some evidence. Or not - frankly, I wouldn't give a shit if they came up with the rankings by reading chicken entrails.

[rwhyAn]

I hear the Johnny Manziel criminal defense clinic at A&M is amazing.

[Leprechaun]

I hear the Johnny Manziel criminal defense clinic at A&M is amazing.

Considering both that main campus is approximately 176 miles from the law school, and that most of us did not go to A&M undergrad, I'd venture that there is not many of us at the law school that gives a flying flip about Aggie football unless they happen to be playing our undergrad school.

Main campus does offer us the ability to get student tickets equivalent to Aggie undergrad senior tickets, but they make it a very difficult process, as you have to go to College Station (176 miles away) for ticket pull during the week of the game, and then back down on Saturday for the actual game if you want to attend.

I believe there was only 4 of us from the law school this past season that had Aggie season tickets, perhaps a couple more that I didn't know about. I absolutely love college football, so I was one of those, but my preference is Notre Dame. I think I went to 2 Aggie games in College Station, 1 at Cowboys Stadium in Arlington, up to Notre Dame for Notre Dame/Texas, to TCU to watch TCU/Baylor, and out to AZ for the Fiesta Bowl between Notre Dame and Ohio State.

This year, I did not renew my Aggie Sports Pass, but instead bought season tickets for the Longhorns (in order to get the Irish tickets, I'll sell the rest, yes, it's cheaper to buy the whole season as opposed to buying Notre Dame tickets on the secondary market), will go see Notre Dame/Army, will go to the playoff semifinal in Arizona, have tickets to the Valero Alamo Bowl that I need to sell, and will catch a TCU game or two as my son is matriculating there in August. Hell, I'd watch Alcorn State vs. Long Beach Junior College if it was on, I love seeing the passion that many college kids bring to the field. Fun to watch, much better than the pros.

[bmathers]

I love seeing the passion that many college kids bring to the field. Fun to watch, much better than the pros.

I 100% agree with you. I am a 3rd-generation Penn State alum and have been getting season tickets since the 90s.

I have since moved to the area of the country were college football is nonexistent, they only care about the NFL and do not consider college football "real" football, and it kills me.

My top love is college basketball, though. It's so quick, fast-paced, and full of emotion. I love it (oh, and they actually play defense and call travels during the regular season, unlike the NBA).

[Leprechaun]

I am a 3rd-generation Penn State alum and have been getting season tickets since the 90s.

Have always wanted to go to a game at Penn State but haven't made it yet. If the Irish play there again I'll probably go to that one. One of my favorite games at ND Stadium was the so called "Snow Bowl" my senior year when the Irish came back to beat the Lions at the end.

I've always had respect for our rivals (except Miami and BC, can't stand them lol) Worst opposing fans I've encountered have been LSU by far followed closely by Michigan. Best opposing fans I've enjoyed were Oklahoma. I'm sure though that my opinions are quite skewed by the atmosphere I happened to be in which probably wasn't representative of those teams fan bases in general.

Good luck to the Nittany Lions, I like the traditional powers to be good.

Mike

[timbs4339]

I would not be surprised if the sole reason A+M is improving in the idiotic USNWR rankings (which literally ask recipients to rank all of the 150+ law schools in the country in order, like anyone really knows enough to do that) is that the name recognition of the college sport teams give it an edge. That does not translate into job prospects.

Not to defend usnwr, but this is a gross simplification of their methodology.

That'she not what I said. What I said was that the peer assessment ranking was the sole determinant in why they were improving in the rankings so much and that this rise was based solely on the fact that TW is now attached to a large university with a good sports team.

And that is not inconsistent with the methodology being more complicated than just the peer assessment score.

[Clearly]

I would not be surprised if the sole reason A+M is improving in the idiotic USNWR rankings (which literally ask recipients to rank all of the 150+ law schools in the country in order, like anyone really knows enough to do that) is that the name recognition of the college sport teams give it an edge. That does not translate into job prospects.

Not to defend usnwr, but this is a gross simplification of their methodology.

That'she not what I said. What I said was that the peer assessment ranking was the sole determinant in why they were improving in the rankings so much and that this rise was based solely on the fact that TW is now attached to a large university with a good sports team.

And that is not inconsistent with the methodology being more complicated than just the peer assessment score.

Point taken, but your hunch is still prob off. They raised both their GPA and LSAT medians several years in a row.