Top Law Schools

Hi all,

Been wrestling with this for so long, hoping to get some fresh perspectives. A summary below, but a quick caveat first. I paid the deposit at NYU in order to reserve my FinAid/scholarship (75k + 15k PI 3rd summer) prior to getting anything from Columbia (90k) (still waiting on Berkeley for around 120k, but probably less with Berkeley's adjustments). I know paying the deposit meant that I technically withdrew from all other schools, but now I'm getting cold feet. Does anyone know if I'm bound to NYU only?

Summary:
- Columbia (90k), NYU (75k + 15k PI 3rd summer), Berkeley (nothing yet, likely around 100k)
- Columbia 90k x 3 yrs = 270k - 90k = 180k pre interest; NYU 90k x 3 yrs = 270k - 75k/90k = 195k/180k pre interest; Berkeley 80k x 3 yrs = 240k (still mid negotiation)
-How you will be financing your COA: loans
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties: Would like a few years in NY, eventually return to CA. Ties to Southern California.
-Your general career goals: Such a hard question since I won't know my interests until I've been exposed in law school. Would do BigLaw for loans... Hoping to get enough exposure in Public Int and vast experience to fall back on for post BigLaw.
-172/3.8

I visited all three. Loved Berkeley, especially their grading scheme, but afraid it doesn't open as many doors as other two schools. NYU, loved the culture... for some reason the people just felt nicer and more down to earth. Unsure if this is really the case. Columbia, love the name and the opportunities that opens... though afraid of not excelling in the competition.

One of my biggest reservations is going to Columbia/NYU and not excelling. I've done well in school in the past, but reading so many posts on law schools really humbles me. I don't want to think I'm the exception to all the horror stories I've read on this forum. Where do average students end up from these three schools?

Really really really appreciate any help, wisdom, and insight you guys can provide.

In terms of "excelling." Your chances are the same at all three schools so I don't really understand your hesitance. I vote CLS since you appear to want BigLaw and it gives you the best shot, statistically.

You're gonna do the same at any of these schools so take that off the table. If you want big law and it seems that your costs might be pretty consistent, then I vote CLS. If Berk comes back with a much higher offer, then that's a solid pick

DCfilterDC wrote:You're gonna do the same at any of these schools so take that off the table. If you want big law and it seems that your costs might be pretty consistent, then I vote CLS. If Berk comes back with a much higher offer, then that's a solid pick

Nebby wrote:In terms of "excelling." Your chances are the same at all three schools so I don't really understand your hesitance. I vote CLS since you appear to want BigLaw and it gives you the best shot, statistically.

I guess I'm wondering if being at mediocre at CLS/NYU might look worse than say just taking Berkeley's honors/pass. And the idea of BigLaw is so foreign to me. Another hesitation I have about Columbia is whether going there will pigeonhole me into the corporate life. This is extremely disturbing after reading the TLS thread on NY BigLaw Associate life.

pleasehelpplease wrote:

DCfilterDC wrote:You're gonna do the same at any of these schools so take that off the table. If you want big law and it seems that your costs might be pretty consistent, then I vote CLS. If Berk comes back with a much higher offer, then that's a solid pick

Nebby wrote:In terms of "excelling." Your chances are the same at all three schools so I don't really understand your hesitance. I vote CLS since you appear to want BigLaw and it gives you the best shot, statistically.

I guess I'm wondering if being at mediocre at CLS/NYU might look worse than say just taking Berkeley's honors/pass. And the idea of BigLaw is so foreign to me. Another hesitation I have about Columbia is whether going there will pigeonhole me into the corporate life. This is extremely disturbing after reading the TLS thread on NY BigLaw Associate life.

God damn NYU people pushing the trope that CLS is a Corporate only law school....

Anyway, you can practice any type of law you want from CLS. Other than sending more people into BigLaw than any other law school in the country, CLS has grads going to public interest jobs that span the spectrum. Here's a recent press release detailing some of those jobs: https://www.law.columbia.edu/media_inqu ... ellowships

pleasehelpplease wrote:

DCfilterDC wrote:You're gonna do the same at any of these schools so take that off the table. If you want big law and it seems that your costs might be pretty consistent, then I vote CLS. If Berk comes back with a much higher offer, then that's a solid pick

Nebby wrote:In terms of "excelling." Your chances are the same at all three schools so I don't really understand your hesitance. I vote CLS since you appear to want BigLaw and it gives you the best shot, statistically.

I guess I'm wondering if being at mediocre at CLS/NYU might look worse than say just taking Berkeley's honors/pass. And the idea of BigLaw is so foreign to me. Another hesitation I have about Columbia is whether going there will pigeonhole me into the corporate life. This is extremely disturbing after reading the TLS thread on NY BigLaw Associate life.

I can't speak to Berk strike out as well as some other people might, but I can point out that the only difference between CLS and Berk's grading is that at CLS for 1L year bottom 1/3 get a B and then middle 1/3 get a B+, at Berk those are combined to just be Pass. There's a chance you're going to get all Ps at Berk which I doubt looks too good, but at CLS as long as you don't get all Bs (which you likely won't), the system will probably work out better for you then at Berk

pleasehelpplease wrote:

DCfilterDC wrote:You're gonna do the same at any of these schools so take that off the table. If you want big law and it seems that your costs might be pretty consistent, then I vote CLS. If Berk comes back with a much higher offer, then that's a solid pick

Nebby wrote:In terms of "excelling." Your chances are the same at all three schools so I don't really understand your hesitance. I vote CLS since you appear to want BigLaw and it gives you the best shot, statistically.

I guess I'm wondering if being at mediocre at CLS/NYU might look worse than say just taking Berkeley's honors/pass. And the idea of BigLaw is so foreign to me. Another hesitation I have about Columbia is whether going there will pigeonhole me into the corporate life. This is extremely disturbing after reading the TLS thread on NY BigLaw Associate life.

I don't think the grading scheme makes a difference. I'm not familiar with the grading at Berkeley but, at the end of the day, all three schools grade on a curve and your chances of ending up above/below/at median are probably the same at all these schools. As previous posters said, outcomes at median are probably the same at any of these schools. NYU has better numbers for public interest and definitely touts its commitment to public interest, but I don't know how much of that is students self-selecting vs. NYU having better placement than CLS - my guess is the former.

Not OP, but in a similar position. Can anyone comment on Columbia's student body? Met people from other schools who were extremely against Columbia. Lots of stories of how people only had like 1-2 friends

prepadviceblah wrote:Not OP, but in a similar position. Can anyone comment on Columbia's student body? Met people from other schools who were extremely against Columbia. Lots of stories of how people only had like 1-2 friends

My $$$ looks a little different, but I'm in a similar dilemma. I think I have ruled out NYU but you and I have a lot of the same concerns.

prepadviceblah wrote:Not OP, but in a similar position. Can anyone comment on Columbia's student body? Met people from other schools who were extremely against Columbia. Lots of stories of how people only had like 1-2 friends

Uh what? I can only speak for myself, but I'm generally unsociable and still have made lots of friends.

The student body at CLS is the same as other top schools. We're not weirdos like Chicago.

Also, you're apparently getting anecdotal evidence from people that don't even go here, but they feel qualified to talk about what it's like to go here? You should probably disregard their opinions

prepadviceblah wrote:Not OP, but in a similar position. Can anyone comment on Columbia's student body? Met people from other schools who were extremely against Columbia. Lots of stories of how people only had like 1-2 friends

lol.

For a school in Manhattan, it's surprising how close knit the community can be.

Thanks everyone. Still just as confused as ever, and it's still a toss up. But just in case I do decide to do so, does anyone know if I can still withdraw from NYU? I guess legally there's nothing they could do except keep my deposit, but I just want to make sure.

pleasehelpplease wrote:Thanks everyone. Still just as confused as ever, and it's still a toss up. But just in case I do decide to do so, does anyone know if I can still withdraw from NYU? I guess legally there's nothing they could do except keep my deposit, but I just want to make sure.

You can still go to any school.

pleasehelpplease wrote: One of my biggest reservations is going to Columbia/NYU and not excelling. I've done well in school in the past, but reading so many posts on law schools really humbles me. I don't want to think I'm the exception to all the horror stories I've read on this forum. Where do average students end up from these three schools?

Hope you're not saying that you think you'll do better at B because B students are dumber than N/C students? That's some misguided bullshit if you are.

If on the other hand you're somehow saying that you're leaning towards B because you think the grading system will cover for poor performance, this is also incorrect.

The B grading system actually is not great and should not factor into your decision in any way. Competition for HHs is intense and the difference between an H and a P can be extremely arbitrary. More importantly, in terms OCI, Ps don't so much cover up for a bottom third performance as make a median performance equivalent to a bottom third performance. Said another way, Ps don't help, they only hurt.

These schools are all peers. If money is equal or essentially equal at all three, go to C/N if you know 100% you want to work in NYC biglaw, B has a strong edge in CA biglaw hiring if that's were you want to end up.

Law school is only three years of your life. If you're lucky, you'll be an attorney for a long time after. What goes on or you think will go on during law school should have little to no effect on your decision. Rather you should only consider which school will get you the job/career that you want at the lowest cost.

L’Étranger wrote:

pleasehelpplease wrote: One of my biggest reservations is going to Columbia/NYU and not excelling. I've done well in school in the past, but reading so many posts on law schools really humbles me. I don't want to think I'm the exception to all the horror stories I've read on this forum. Where do average students end up from these three schools?

Hope you're not saying that you think you'll do better at B because B students are dumber than N/C students? That's some misguided bullshit if you are.

If on the other hand you're somehow saying that you're leaning towards B because you think the grading system will cover for poor performance, this is also incorrect.

The B grading system actually is not great and should not factor into your decision in any way. Competition for HHs is intense and the difference between an H and a P can be extremely arbitrary. More importantly, in terms OCI, Ps don't so much cover up for a bottom third performance as make a median performance equivalent to a bottom third performance. Said another way, Ps don't help, they only hurt.

These schools are all peers. If money is equal or essentially equal at all three, go to C/N if you know 100% you want to work in NYC biglaw, B has a strong edge in CA biglaw hiring if that's were you want to end up.

Law school is only three years of your life. If you're lucky, you'll be an attorney for a long time after. What goes on or you think will go on during law school should have little to no effect on your decision. Rather you should only consider which school will get you the job/career that you want at the lowest cost.

Definitely not putting down Berkeley L'Etranger, and I'm really sorry if it came off that way. You seem to have quite a bit of insight on this, so I'll pick your brain.

Right now, I'm preparing for the worst by putting myself at the bottom third of the class at each of these schools. Do you think someone getting by with P's at Berkeley would be worse off than someone at C/N that gets around say a 3.0? Excuse the naivete, but from what I gathered from Berkeley ASW, it seemed like a lot attributed the laid back, collegiate feel to the grading system itself.

As for where I'd like to end up, I would ideally like to end up back in California, though I also want the benefits of the NY school networks just in case. Would my ties to Southern California offset the "strong edge" you're referring to for Berkeley?

Really appreciate everyone taking the time!

pleasehelpplease wrote:

L’Étranger wrote:

pleasehelpplease wrote: One of my biggest reservations is going to Columbia/NYU and not excelling. I've done well in school in the past, but reading so many posts on law schools really humbles me. I don't want to think I'm the exception to all the horror stories I've read on this forum. Where do average students end up from these three schools?

Hope you're not saying that you think you'll do better at B because B students are dumber than N/C students? That's some misguided bullshit if you are.

If on the other hand you're somehow saying that you're leaning towards B because you think the grading system will cover for poor performance, this is also incorrect.

The B grading system actually is not great and should not factor into your decision in any way. Competition for HHs is intense and the difference between an H and a P can be extremely arbitrary. More importantly, in terms OCI, Ps don't so much cover up for a bottom third performance as make a median performance equivalent to a bottom third performance. Said another way, Ps don't help, they only hurt.

These schools are all peers. If money is equal or essentially equal at all three, go to C/N if you know 100% you want to work in NYC biglaw, B has a strong edge in CA biglaw hiring if that's were you want to end up.

Law school is only three years of your life. If you're lucky, you'll be an attorney for a long time after. What goes on or you think will go on during law school should have little to no effect on your decision. Rather you should only consider which school will get you the job/career that you want at the lowest cost.

Definitely not putting down Berkeley L'Etranger, and I'm really sorry if it came off that way. You seem to have quite a bit of insight on this, so I'll pick your brain.

Right now, I'm preparing for the worst by putting myself at the bottom third of the class at each of these schools. Do you think someone getting by with P's at Berkeley would be worse off than someone at C/N that gets around say a 3.0? Excuse the naivete, but from what I gathered from Berkeley ASW, it seemed like a lot attributed the laid back, collegiate feel to the grading system itself.

As for where I'd like to end up, I would ideally like to end up back in California, though I also want the benefits of the NY school networks just in case. Would my ties to Southern California offset the "strong edge" you're referring to for Berkeley?

Really appreciate everyone taking the time!

I personally had a good time at B, and thought there were a number of very cool people in my class. More than that, I'd say that there were a number of people in my class that I don't think you'll find at a lot of other T14 schools. But people still care a lot about grades there and can be intense about it, so I think the whole laid back vibe thing is a facade.

If you do get all P's or a lot more P's than H's at B, it's going to be a real uphill climb to get a biglaw job out of B. In this situation, you'll either need dynamite interview skills or a really relevant employment background. As compared to C/N, the difference in the grading is that at C/N there is a definite class median/class rank whereas at B, because of the grading system there is not. Most students at B end up with a mix of H's and P's and there's no magic number for getting a job. I found this frustrating going into OCI.

B has a strong advantage in CA by virtue of the fact that a ton of CA based offices will interview applicants at our OCI and CA based firms hire heavily from our school. At C/N you'll have less CA firms/offices at OCI, so you'll likely have to mass mail to get interviews with CA based firms, and as a rule of thumb, you'll need top grades to get someone from HR to pick your resume off the pile with mass mail.

That being said, overall best career opportunities (assuming you'll work anywhere) is from C followed closely by N. Best CA opportunities is B. None of the schools guarantee legal employment, and that's why scholarships are so huge.

I'll open by saying I would definitely go to Columbia here with your goals. Its more highly regarded in CA than NYU and has excellent placement into elite firms there, in addition of course to the top firms in New York. I was from southern California, attended a northeast law school, had multiple offers for 1L & 2L summers, and will most likely be working in California after my clerkship so feel free to PM me about the coastal transition and such.

I don't think L'Etranger is being entirely unbiased in presenting Berkeley as a peer in private sector employment to CN. I'm not saying Berkeley students are less competent or that competition there will be lighter--in fact, Cal traditionally has lower acceptance rates than HCCN. But it is incontrovertible that over the past decade, Berkeley's numbers--both for those who become attorneys overall and those entering firms or federal clerkships after graduation--have slumped and remain significantly lower on the order of 15-20% than CLS. More troublingly, Berkeley's OCI success rates are about 20-25% weaker than CN. This means that even if one buys the argument that more Boalt students are skipping OCI to do public interest, among those students who want to work for a big firm, it's considerably more difficult. Every Berkeley student on TLS will probably tell you that everyone got a good job, or that strike-outs actually just get gigs outside of OCI, ect., but there's hard data showing 65-70% success rates at Berkeley (compared to 92% this year at CLS).

I am not saying don't go to Berkeley. If you want to practice in California, it's placement is probably more on par with CN. For public interest, especially in certain fields, the schools are peers. But if you really do want to work in the private sector, these schools do present qualitatively different outcome spreads for their (probably equally gifted) students. If Berkeley is significantly cheaper than CLS/NYU here (and I would go CLS at equal cost), then there's a calculus of added placement power versus cost, and cost very well may win out. But keep in mind that's the operative consideration here, not a comparison between peers in your area of interest.

prepadviceblah wrote:Not OP, but in a similar position. Can anyone comment on Columbia's student body? Met people from other schools who were extremely against Columbia. Lots of stories of how people only had like 1-2 friends

I've heard terrible things about the admin from students there, but not that people have trouble making friends. Obviously, some people don't make a lot of friends in law school. That's true even at my school, despite the fact that it's small and everyone is pretty friendly. If you join some activities, or just generally make an effort, you'll make friends basically anywhere. The students will mostly be like you in a lot of ways, and you'll have a lot in common because you'll all being going through 1L together. Worst case scenario, you're in NYC, and it's very easy to make friends there with non-law-school people.

I wouldn't give much credence to something said about Columbia by a student at another law school. I have heard some crazy things about Chicago being full of weirdos, that everyone is miserable, etc. People repeat stereotypes, which is normal, but don't buy into them so much that you end up making a a bad financial/employment decision.

No school is perfect, but generally, I don't find the stereotypes about my school (UChi) to be true. And I find this particular assertion about Columbia to be particularly unlikely to be true.

Also, since I don't go to Columbia, I can just straight up say that I think it's much better than Berkeley for NYC biglaw and biglaw in general. Neither is terrible, but if they cost the same, Columbia is the lower-risk choice.

Although I also think that the fit / feel of a school is really important and that NYU places very well, so if you like NYU better than Columbia, I see no reason not to go to NYU.

You'll be fine at any of these schools.

jbagelboy wrote:I'll open by saying I would definitely go to Columbia here with your goals. Its more highly regarded in CA than NYU and has excellent placement into elite firms there, in addition of course to the top firms in New York. I was from southern California, attended a northeast law school, had multiple offers for 1L & 2L summers, and will most likely be working in California after my clerkship so feel free to PM me about the coastal transition and such.

I don't think L'Etranger is being entirely unbiased in presenting Berkeley as a peer in private sector employment to CN. I'm not saying Berkeley students are less competent or that competition there will be lighter--in fact, Cal traditionally has lower acceptance rates than HCCN. But it is incontrovertible that over the past decade, Berkeley's numbers--both for those who become attorneys overall and those entering firms or federal clerkships after graduation--have slumped and remain significantly lower on the order of 15-20% than CLS. More troublingly, Berkeley's OCI success rates are about 20-25% weaker than CN. This means that even if one buys the argument that more Boalt students are skipping OCI to do public interest, among those students who want to work for a big firm, it's considerably more difficult. Every Berkeley student on TLS will probably tell you that everyone got a good job, or that strike-outs actually just get gigs outside of OCI, ect., but there's hard data showing 65-70% success rates at Berkeley (compared to 92% this year at CLS).

I am not saying don't go to Berkeley. If you want to practice in California, it's placement is probably more on par with CN. For public interest, especially in certain fields, the schools are peers. But if you really do want to work in the private sector, these schools do present qualitatively different outcome spreads for their (probably equally gifted) students. If Berkeley is significantly cheaper than CLS/NYU here (and I would go CLS at equal cost), then there's a calculus of added placement power versus cost, and cost very well may win out. But keep in mind that's the operative consideration here, not a comparison between peers in your area of interest.

Can't speak to Columbia because I didn't ask when I visited but at NYU their career services director told me oci success rate was just over 70%, about the same as Berkeley. I also think the relative selectivity of less prestigious Bay Area firms compared to less prestigious NY firms plays into it being a bit harder to get biglaw out of Berkeley, but a strike out leaves you in a shitty situation regardless of why it happened. Lastly, I'll mention that the NYU career services director said very directly that if you want to work in California you'll have trouble getting back if you're below median, and recommended I go to Berkeley if NYU is any more expensive.

I think Berkeley will be especially helpful for finding a job if you have good interviewing and interpersonal skills just because of the added exposure, contact, and oci opps there. Bay Area firms are known to care more about fit than about grades, at least in comparison to NYC. Columbia has the Columbia name though, and that goes a long way. If you do poorly at any of these schools things will be tough, but unless you do really shitty and can't interview at all you should still find a fine job somewhere. If you do well at any of these schools you're going to have a ton of options

I'm shocked to hear the career services director state such a statistic since their c/o 2016 EIW offer rate was 87%. In 2010-2011, NYU had bad slump years, but so did every school. Maybe some NYU students could chime in.

For bay area firms specifically, Berkeley probably offers an advantage over both NYU and CLS. But the problem with over-reliance on that reasoning is that Bay Area firms are still unaccessible to much of Boalt's class due to the pitifully small class sizes of all but a handful SF/SV offices and the more intense competition for these jobs. In fact, as a Berkeley student, I would bet it's safer to bid New York (where firms are less selective and have to try to recruit Berkeley students) and LA (where class sizes are a bit bigger) for below median students. This as an empirical matter results in many students without jobs, meaning that the SF ties advantage is really only helping some otherwise qualified people (high grades or patent bar eligible). I don't think your proposition that SF/SV firms care less about grades than other markets like NY is supported by evidence.

Nebby wrote:

prepadviceblah wrote:Not OP, but in a similar position. Can anyone comment on Columbia's student body? Met people from other schools who were extremely against Columbia. Lots of stories of how people only had like 1-2 friends

Uh what? I can only speak for myself, but I'm generally unsociable and still have made lots of friends.

The student body at CLS is the same as other top schools. We're not weirdos like Chicago.

Also, you're apparently getting anecdotal evidence from people that don't even go here, but they feel qualified to talk about what it's like to go here? You should probably disregard their opinions

Columbia students are super sociable and its a great community. I like the people I've met from Chicago too, so I'm not going to judge them either. There are some miserable people at all law schools (even YLS!), it's a harrowing experience in many ways no matter where you go. I feel like these suggestions from "other schools" are just generic rationalizations for why individuals didn't attend/didn't get in that have no basis in reality.

jbagelboy wrote:

Nebby wrote:

prepadviceblah wrote:Not OP, but in a similar position. Can anyone comment on Columbia's student body? Met people from other schools who were extremely against Columbia. Lots of stories of how people only had like 1-2 friends

Uh what? I can only speak for myself, but I'm generally unsociable and still have made lots of friends.

The student body at CLS is the same as other top schools. We're not weirdos like Chicago.

Also, you're apparently getting anecdotal evidence from people that don't even go here, but they feel qualified to talk about what it's like to go here? You should probably disregard their opinions

Columbia students are super sociable and its a great community. I like the people I've met from Chicago too, so I'm not going to judge them either. There are some miserable people at all law schools (even YLS!), it's a harrowing experience in many ways no matter where you go. I feel like these suggestions from "other schools" are just generic rationalizations for why individuals didn't attend/didn't get in that have no basis in reality.

+1

Thanks for the lively discussion everyone. So it really seems like the culture and vibe aspect is more or less manufactured and probably shouldn't play in such a huge role.

However, could anyone speak on my (perhaps unfounded) concern for life after BigLaw? I know that my future career will result from what I make of it and has more to do with my level of involvement in a variety of interests, but does Columbia offer the same networking opportunities as NYU in nonprofit work?

Since you want NY Biglaw, NYU and CLS offer the same shot and you should go with whichever one is cheaper.

Cal offers way better chances for CA generally and Bay Area specifically. Think hard about where you want your first job to be.