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I can already guess the responses, but I recently was offered admission to GW with a $20,000 a year scholarship. After trying to negotiate, they said it could be moved up to $25,000, but it's doubtful. My parents are willing to cover about $10-15k a year. The rest would be borrowed, so I'm looking at COA ~$135k on the verylow end, probably more like $170k.

I'm also in at W&M for COA $67k and UIUC $40k COA. (Also in at Indiana and UMN for $60k and $100k COA)

Career goal of working in in government or corporate law in the DC area. Interested in finance, international law (MnA/Contract), and Lobbying as well.

I would love to work in D.C. and it's my dream city career wise. I'm from Illinois so I'm fairly familiar with the Chicago area. I would consider Chicago my fallback area which is why UIUC full-ride is very attractive. My mind is telling me UIUC or W&M for debt reasons, my body is telling me GW for emotional reasons haha.

Final question: W&M is wayyyy cheaper than GW, but would I still be able to crack into the D.C. market with a degree from W&M. I know GW isn't exactly the best school for D.C. as is (GULC, Yale, Harvard, etc... are all better). W&M likes to say they're good for D.C. but their NLAP suggest maybe not.

inb4 retake and reapply next year.

Thanks,
166 LSAT 3.67 GPA

Do not, under any circumstances, take on that much debt to go to GW.

UIUC full ride is a considerably better option. If your parents are still willing to pay 10-15k/yr towards housing then you could graduate with zero debt, which would be nice. I wouldn't expect to get DC biglaw from UIUC, but I wouldn't expect to get it from GW either.

edit: also, you should really retake and reapply

don't go

Retake and reapply next year.

Clemenceau wrote:Do not, under any circumstances, take on that much debt to go to GW.

UIUC full ride is a considerably better option. If your parents are still willing to pay 10-15k/yr towards housing then you could graduate with zero debt, which would be nice. I wouldn't expect to get DC biglaw from UIUC, but I wouldn't expect to get it from GW either.

edit: also, you should really retake and reapply

"wouldn't expect to get it from GW either."

Must suck to be unable to get into top 25% of your class. OP, competition will be stiff, but it's absolutely doable. As usual, I already know what's going to get posted by Very Serious People bros after this, but I can't imagine doing something / being somewhere I wasn't 100% into, knowing that the other thing (DC, in your case and in mine) is out there.

Best of luck with whatever you decide, though!

I went to GW. Don't go. But also if you want to be a lobbyist just go work on the hill. Your time is better spent there. IN 3 years, you could be an LA if you get promoted rapdily in the house. That's a better spot than you would land with a law degree. If you want to lobby you need to get to LD/CoS or get decades of useful experience with a committee. Unless you want to do judiciary issues, being a lawyer is barely useful.

Also, if you want to possibly do all four of those things you clearly have no idea what you actually want to do. So, smaug's don't go is clearly the best advice.

Catsinthebag wrote:

Clemenceau wrote:Do not, under any circumstances, take on that much debt to go to GW.

UIUC full ride is a considerably better option. If your parents are still willing to pay 10-15k/yr towards housing then you could graduate with zero debt, which would be nice. I wouldn't expect to get DC biglaw from UIUC, but I wouldn't expect to get it from GW either.

edit: also, you should really retake and reapply

"wouldn't expect to get it from GW either."

Must suck to be unable to get into top 25% of your class. OP, competition will be stiff, but it's absolutely doable. As usual, I already know what's going to get posted by Very Serious People bros after this, but I can't imagine doing something / being somewhere I wasn't 100% into, knowing that the other thing (DC, in your case and in mine) is out there.

Best of luck with whatever you decide, though!

I wasn't able to get into the top 25% of my class at a T20 and it certainly wasn't for lack of effort. Sometimes people just aren't that great at law school, and it's impossible to predict how you will do going in. How hard you work isn't determinative, nor are your entering numbers.

Also top 25% at a T20 doesn't assure you of anything, not even close.

OP- I would take the time to retake the LSAT and figure out what you want from your career before attending law school.

BigZuck wrote:

Catsinthebag wrote:

Clemenceau wrote:Do not, under any circumstances, take on that much debt to go to GW.

UIUC full ride is a considerably better option. If your parents are still willing to pay 10-15k/yr towards housing then you could graduate with zero debt, which would be nice. I wouldn't expect to get DC biglaw from UIUC, but I wouldn't expect to get it from GW either.

edit: also, you should really retake and reapply

"wouldn't expect to get it from GW either."

Must suck to be unable to get into top 25% of your class. OP, competition will be stiff, but it's absolutely doable. As usual, I already know what's going to get posted by Very Serious People bros after this, but I can't imagine doing something / being somewhere I wasn't 100% into, knowing that the other thing (DC, in your case and in mine) is out there.

Best of luck with whatever you decide, though!

I wasn't able to get into the top 25% of my class at a T20 and it certainly wasn't for lack of effort. Sometimes people just aren't that great at law school, and it's impossible to predict how you will do going in. How hard you work isn't determinative, nor are your entering numbers.

Also top 25% at a T20 doesn't assure you of anything, not even close.

OP- I would take the time to retake the LSAT and figure out what you want from your career before attending law school.

I am top 25% at GW and I got economics no-offered. Shit just happens. There are no guarantees.

FSK wrote:

BigZuck wrote:

Catsinthebag wrote:

Clemenceau wrote:Do not, under any circumstances, take on that much debt to go to GW.

UIUC full ride is a considerably better option. If your parents are still willing to pay 10-15k/yr towards housing then you could graduate with zero debt, which would be nice. I wouldn't expect to get DC biglaw from UIUC, but I wouldn't expect to get it from GW either.

edit: also, you should really retake and reapply

"wouldn't expect to get it from GW either."

Must suck to be unable to get into top 25% of your class. OP, competition will be stiff, but it's absolutely doable. As usual, I already know what's going to get posted by Very Serious People bros after this, but I can't imagine doing something / being somewhere I wasn't 100% into, knowing that the other thing (DC, in your case and in mine) is out there.

Best of luck with whatever you decide, though!

I wasn't able to get into the top 25% of my class at a T20 and it certainly wasn't for lack of effort. Sometimes people just aren't that great at law school, and it's impossible to predict how you will do going in. How hard you work isn't determinative, nor are your entering numbers.

Also top 25% at a T20 doesn't assure you of anything, not even close.

OP- I would take the time to retake the LSAT and figure out what you want from your career before attending law school.

I am top 25% at GW and I got economics no-offered. Shit just happens. There are no guarantees.

What is "economics no-offered"?

^ my guess is got a firm, did fine, but the firm slipped financially and no-offered a few summers.

cron1834 wrote:^ my guess is got a firm, did fine, but the firm slipped financially and no-offered a few summers.

Mhmm

What's the recourse when that happens? 3L OCI? Mass mail 3L fall? Drop out? Go after clerkships?

Catsinthebag wrote:

Clemenceau wrote:Do not, under any circumstances, take on that much debt to go to GW.

UIUC full ride is a considerably better option. If your parents are still willing to pay 10-15k/yr towards housing then you could graduate with zero debt, which would be nice. I wouldn't expect to get DC biglaw from UIUC, but I wouldn't expect to get it from GW either.

edit: also, you should really retake and reapply

"wouldn't expect to get it from GW either."

Must suck to be unable to get into top 25% of your class. OP, competition will be stiff, but it's absolutely doable. As usual, I already know what's going to get posted by Very Serious People bros after this, but I can't imagine doing something / being somewhere I wasn't 100% into, knowing that the other thing (DC, in your case and in mine) is out there.

Best of luck with whatever you decide, though!

Lol. You're an idiot

Clemenceau wrote:

Catsinthebag wrote:

Clemenceau wrote:Do not, under any circumstances, take on that much debt to go to GW.

UIUC full ride is a considerably better option. If your parents are still willing to pay 10-15k/yr towards housing then you could graduate with zero debt, which would be nice. I wouldn't expect to get DC biglaw from UIUC, but I wouldn't expect to get it from GW either.

edit: also, you should really retake and reapply

"wouldn't expect to get it from GW either."

Must suck to be unable to get into top 25% of your class. OP, competition will be stiff, but it's absolutely doable. As usual, I already know what's going to get posted by Very Serious People bros after this, but I can't imagine doing something / being somewhere I wasn't 100% into, knowing that the other thing (DC, in your case and in mine) is out there.

Best of luck with whatever you decide, though!

Lol. You're an idiot

i'm sure catsinthebag goes to a horrible school and just needs some reassurance pat pats

*pat pat*

You should definitely not go, especially if the main reason is because you want to work in D.C. The D.C. market is really tough; everyone wants to practice there and there is a huge oversupply of lawyers. I can't speak as to GW, but bidding D.C. at OCI out of GULC is extremely competitive / very unpredictable unless you're top 10%, so I imagine it's even worse out of GW. You'd basically be taking $150k+ of high-interest debt for a 10% shot at landing a D.C. firm.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but your best option is to retake. Bump your LSAT up in the 170s and you could end up with much more solid choices than what you have now.

Edited for clarity.

Mr. Blackacre wrote:To be fair (and to catsinthebag's credit), it's actually 35% at GW who get good outcomes (based on 2015, biglaw + fedclerks), not 25%.

I still think you should definitely not go, especially if the main reason is because you want to work in D.C. The D.C. market is really tough; everyone wants to practice there and there is a huge oversupply of lawyers. I can't speak as to GW, but bidding D.C. at OCI out of GULC is extremely competitive / very unpredictable unless you're top 10%, so I imagine it's even worse out of GW. You'd basically be taking $150k+ of high-interest debt for a 10% shot at landing a D.C. firm.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but your best option is to retake. Bump your LSAT up in the 170s and you could end up with much more solid choices than what you have now.

Not sure how your first point is to catsinthebags credit. He ballparked that you'd need to be top 25% at gw to get DC biglaw, and then you proceeded to say you'd need to be top 10%.

Clemenceau wrote:

Mr. Blackacre wrote:To be fair (and to catsinthebag's credit), it's actually 35% at GW who get good outcomes (based on 2015, biglaw + fedclerks), not 25%.

I still think you should definitely not go, especially if the main reason is because you want to work in D.C. The D.C. market is really tough; everyone wants to practice there and there is a huge oversupply of lawyers. I can't speak as to GW, but bidding D.C. at OCI out of GULC is extremely competitive / very unpredictable unless you're top 10%, so I imagine it's even worse out of GW. You'd basically be taking $150k+ of high-interest debt for a 10% shot at landing a D.C. firm.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but your best option is to retake. Bump your LSAT up in the 170s and you could end up with much more solid choices than what you have now.

Not sure how your first point is to catsinthebags credit. He ballparked that you'd need to be top 25% at gw to get DC biglaw, and then you proceeded to say you'd need to be top 10%.

You're both totally off. GW has a disproportionate number of patent kids. True DC biglaw is more like top 10% to have a good shot.

FSK wrote:

Clemenceau wrote:

Mr. Blackacre wrote:To be fair (and to catsinthebag's credit), it's actually 35% at GW who get good outcomes (based on 2015, biglaw + fedclerks), not 25%.

I still think you should definitely not go, especially if the main reason is because you want to work in D.C. The D.C. market is really tough; everyone wants to practice there and there is a huge oversupply of lawyers. I can't speak as to GW, but bidding D.C. at OCI out of GULC is extremely competitive / very unpredictable unless you're top 10%, so I imagine it's even worse out of GW. You'd basically be taking $150k+ of high-interest debt for a 10% shot at landing a D.C. firm.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but your best option is to retake. Bump your LSAT up in the 170s and you could end up with much more solid choices than what you have now.

Not sure how your first point is to catsinthebags credit. He ballparked that you'd need to be top 25% at gw to get DC biglaw, and then you proceeded to say you'd need to be top 10%.

You're both totally off. GW has a disproportionate number of patent kids. True DC biglaw is more like top 10% to have a good shot.

Hmm. I misread catsinthebags' point to be that 25% of people at GW got biglaw in general, when he was actually saying that 25% of people at GW get D.C. biglaw. That's clearly false; I completely agree that it'll be very difficult to get D.C. biglaw at GW outside of the top 10% .

Mr. Blackacre wrote:

FSK wrote:

Clemenceau wrote:

Mr. Blackacre wrote:To be fair (and to catsinthebag's credit), it's actually 35% at GW who get good outcomes (based on 2015, biglaw + fedclerks), not 25%.

I still think you should definitely not go, especially if the main reason is because you want to work in D.C. The D.C. market is really tough; everyone wants to practice there and there is a huge oversupply of lawyers. I can't speak as to GW, but bidding D.C. at OCI out of GULC is extremely competitive / very unpredictable unless you're top 10%, so I imagine it's even worse out of GW. You'd basically be taking $150k+ of high-interest debt for a 10% shot at landing a D.C. firm.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but your best option is to retake. Bump your LSAT up in the 170s and you could end up with much more solid choices than what you have now.

Not sure how your first point is to catsinthebags credit. He ballparked that you'd need to be top 25% at gw to get DC biglaw, and then you proceeded to say you'd need to be top 10%.

You're both totally off. GW has a disproportionate number of patent kids. True DC biglaw is more like top 10% to have a good shot.

Hmm. I misread catsinthebags' point to be that 25% of people at GW got biglaw in general, when he was actually saying that 25% of people at GW get D.C. biglaw. That's clearly false; I completely agree that it'll be very difficult to get D.C. biglaw at GW outside of the top 10% .

No, you had it right the first time. Don't let half-witted lawbros pull you astray! Roughly 25% of GW as of most recent filing was big law. I didn't specify DC big law, though because that's what OP wanted, I should've added a caveat.

Also, obviously that doesn't mean the top 25% are actually the ones in that category of employment.

Lawbros so funny and predictable!

BigZuck wrote:

Catsinthebag wrote:

Clemenceau wrote:Do not, under any circumstances, take on that much debt to go to GW.

UIUC full ride is a considerably better option. If your parents are still willing to pay 10-15k/yr towards housing then you could graduate with zero debt, which would be nice. I wouldn't expect to get DC biglaw from UIUC, but I wouldn't expect to get it from GW either.

edit: also, you should really retake and reapply

"wouldn't expect to get it from GW either."

Must suck to be unable to get into top 25% of your class. OP, competition will be stiff, but it's absolutely doable. As usual, I already know what's going to get posted by Very Serious People bros after this, but I can't imagine doing something / being somewhere I wasn't 100% into, knowing that the other thing (DC, in your case and in mine) is out there.

Best of luck with whatever you decide, though!

I wasn't able to get into the top 25% of my class at a T20 and it certainly wasn't for lack of effort. Sometimes people just aren't that great at law school, and it's impossible to predict how you will do going in. How hard you work isn't determinative, nor are your entering numbers.

Also top 25% at a T20 doesn't assure you of anything, not even close.

OP- I would take the time to retake the LSAT and figure out what you want from your career before attending law school.

How hard you work isn't determinative? I didn't see that argument made, but it's closer to determinative than any other one other quality or effort.

Look dig your own grave but listen to the people who have seen it first hand if you're smart.

Catsinthebag wrote:

BigZuck wrote:

Catsinthebag wrote:

Clemenceau wrote:Do not, under any circumstances, take on that much debt to go to GW.

UIUC full ride is a considerably better option. If your parents are still willing to pay 10-15k/yr towards housing then you could graduate with zero debt, which would be nice. I wouldn't expect to get DC biglaw from UIUC, but I wouldn't expect to get it from GW either.

edit: also, you should really retake and reapply

"wouldn't expect to get it from GW either."

Must suck to be unable to get into top 25% of your class. OP, competition will be stiff, but it's absolutely doable. As usual, I already know what's going to get posted by Very Serious People bros after this, but I can't imagine doing something / being somewhere I wasn't 100% into, knowing that the other thing (DC, in your case and in mine) is out there.

Best of luck with whatever you decide, though!

I wasn't able to get into the top 25% of my class at a T20 and it certainly wasn't for lack of effort. Sometimes people just aren't that great at law school, and it's impossible to predict how you will do going in. How hard you work isn't determinative, nor are your entering numbers.

Also top 25% at a T20 doesn't assure you of anything, not even close.

OP- I would take the time to retake the LSAT and figure out what you want from your career before attending law school.

How hard you work isn't determinative? I didn't see that argument made, but it's closer to determinative than any other one other quality or effort.

Lol of course it's not determinative. I think every law student has a story of killing themselves in one class to get median, and acing the class they phoned it in for. Then there are the people who work really hard on the wrong things. Overall I think hard work is usually necessary, but it's not at all determinative (in part because really everyone works hard).

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

Catsinthebag wrote:

BigZuck wrote:

Catsinthebag wrote:

Clemenceau wrote:Do not, under any circumstances, take on that much debt to go to GW.

UIUC full ride is a considerably better option. If your parents are still willing to pay 10-15k/yr towards housing then you could graduate with zero debt, which would be nice. I wouldn't expect to get DC biglaw from UIUC, but I wouldn't expect to get it from GW either.

edit: also, you should really retake and reapply

"wouldn't expect to get it from GW either."

Must suck to be unable to get into top 25% of your class. OP, competition will be stiff, but it's absolutely doable. As usual, I already know what's going to get posted by Very Serious People bros after this, but I can't imagine doing something / being somewhere I wasn't 100% into, knowing that the other thing (DC, in your case and in mine) is out there.

Best of luck with whatever you decide, though!

I wasn't able to get into the top 25% of my class at a T20 and it certainly wasn't for lack of effort. Sometimes people just aren't that great at law school, and it's impossible to predict how you will do going in. How hard you work isn't determinative, nor are your entering numbers.

Also top 25% at a T20 doesn't assure you of anything, not even close.

OP- I would take the time to retake the LSAT and figure out what you want from your career before attending law school.

How hard you work isn't determinative? I didn't see that argument made, but it's closer to determinative than any other one other quality or effort.

Lol of course it's not determinative. I think every law student has a story of killing themselves in one class to get median, and acing the class they phoned it in for. Then there are the people who work really hard on the wrong things. Overall I think hard work is usually necessary, but it's not at all determinative (in part because really everyone works hard).

Oh, I agree 100%. Just saying, relative to any other skill/attribute/habit/etc one can have, it's the closest to determinative status.

I go to GULC and can attest to the general ridiculousness of trying to land DC biglaw: here's some anecdata from peeps I know at GW, just to illustrate the absurd feast or famine of their OCI:

-one dude got like top 5%, landed a sweet 1L SA, then a v3 in NYC. "good" outcome.

-one dude got just inside top third, hustled his balls off for anything and everything in DC and NYC, came super close to striking out everywhere, rides it down to the wire and lands a v100 in DC that's on shaky financial footing and known for no-offers. good outcome?

-of the three or four others I've met, mostly with grades similar to the guy above and bidding not just for DC, they all struck out.

Attend at your own peril, but not at that cost (unless you're a patent bro).

I think you under performed your numbers a bit. My LSAT was a point below yours and my GPA is only a tad higher and I got 27K/year from GW. Maybe even consider sprucing up your app and applying again next year, if not just retaking the LSAT? GW Law is just so, so expensive and I think it's really hard to justify.