UVA ($$$) vs. Duke ($$$) Forum

[jeanralphio]

The schools you are considering
UVA and Duke

Total debt at repayment
UVA: $142,672 ($40k/year scholarship)
Duke: $146,169 ($40k/year scholarship)

How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
Loans, although I have a good amount of savings, so I'm comfortable with the debt load at each.

Where you are from and where you want to work
Lived outside of DC for 15 years. I have three years of policy experience in DC, and that's where I see myself in the future.

Your general career goals
I'd like to clerk after law school. After that, I'm open to DC biglaw doing regulatory stuff, bigfed, or eventually being a commissioned officer in an Administration (the dream).

Your LSAT/GPA numbers
172/3.6

I've visited both and could see myself at either school. I went to UVA for undergrad and I love Charlottesville, but I wouldn't mind a change of pace for three years. One big draw is that after commuting in DC for four years, being able to walk to school at UVA is a huge plus (as petty as that may sound). TLS has been such a great resource over the years and I appreciate the input! Thank you!

[lymenheimer]

This seems like an obvious choice, so I'm not really sure where this question comes in. I mean, Duke can get you a clerkship and to DC, but UVA is objectively better at both of those things. So unless you are cool with potentially not getting your goal, just so you can have a change of scenery for 3 years, UVA is the obvious choice.

eta: I'm a 0L...so what do I know about numbers and 509 reports, right?

[Mikey]

Did you not apply to any other T14's?

[jeanralphio]

This seems like an obvious choice, so I'm not really sure where this question comes in. I mean, Duke can get you a clerkship and to DC, but UVA is objectively better at both of those things. So unless you are cool with potentially not getting your goal, just so you can have a change of scenery for 3 years, UVA is the obvious choice.

I'm not sure how much of each school's outcomes is a result of self-selection and was hoping to get some insight from current students and recent graduates. If the choice was an obvious one, I would not have created a thread.

[jeanralphio]

Did you not apply to any other T14's?

I did, but I was waitlisted, the scholarship offer was noncompetitive, or I was totally uninterested in attending.

[existentialcrisis]

This seems like an obvious choice, so I'm not really sure where this question comes in. I mean, Duke can get you a clerkship and to DC, but UVA is objectively better at both of those things. So unless you are cool with potentially not getting your goal, just so you can have a change of scenery for 3 years, UVA is the obvious choice.

I don't think UVA is objectively better at either, but I do think it's the right choice here.

But, OP I would make peace with the idea that DC big law and/or big fed may not happen right out of school.

[lymenheimer]

This seems like an obvious choice, so I'm not really sure where this question comes in. I mean, Duke can get you a clerkship and to DC, but UVA is objectively better at both of those things. So unless you are cool with potentially not getting your goal, just so you can have a change of scenery for 3 years, UVA is the obvious choice.

I don't think UVA is objectively better at either, but I do think it's the right choice here.

But, OP I would make peace with the idea that DC big law and/or big fed may not happen right out of school.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm
https://law.duke.edu/career/employmentdata/

I'm not gonna do the math, but it's pretty objective; regardless of whether it's self-selection.

[existentialcrisis]

This seems like an obvious choice, so I'm not really sure where this question comes in. I mean, Duke can get you a clerkship and to DC, but UVA is objectively better at both of those things. So unless you are cool with potentially not getting your goal, just so you can have a change of scenery for 3 years, UVA is the obvious choice.

I don't think UVA is objectively better at either, but I do think it's the right choice here.

But, OP I would make peace with the idea that DC big law and/or big fed may not happen right out of school.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm
https://law.duke.edu/career/employmentdata/

I'm not gonna do the math, but it's pretty objective; regardless of whether it's self-selection.

That makes no sense. The correct statement would then be "UVA sends objectively more people into Clerkships and DC. Not "UVA is objectively better at landing its students Clerkships and DC big law." This a really important difference.

OP does not have ties to a secondary market, if he doesn't get top grades he's going to need to at least be open to the possibility of NY big law.

[lymenheimer]

That makes no sense. The correct statement would then be "UVA sends objectively more people into Clerkships and DC. Not "UVA is objectively better at landing its students Clerkships and DC big law." This a really important difference.

OP does not have ties to a secondary market, if he doesn't get top grades he's going to need to at least be open to the possibility of NY big law.

k. cool...? I mean idk why you're arguing semantics here. The point is, his chances are better to reach his goals at UVA than at Duke. At Duke, he'd have to be more comfortable with the possibility of NY biglaw than he would from UVA. So my point, objectively, stands.

[existentialcrisis]

That makes no sense. The correct statement would then be "UVA sends objectively more people into Clerkships and DC. Not "UVA is objectively better at landing its students Clerkships and DC big law." This a really important difference.

OP does not have ties to a secondary market, if he doesn't get top grades he's going to need to at least be open to the possibility of NY big law.

k. cool...? I mean idk why you're arguing semantics here. The point is, his chances are better to reach his goals at UVA than at Duke. At Duke, he'd have to be more comfortable with the possibility of NY biglaw than he would from UVA. So my point, objectively, stands.

I don't see how you aren't grasping this. My point was, his chances are probably not better at UVA. Data about where people end up does not equal placement power.

[lymenheimer]

I don't see how you aren't grasping this. My point was, his chances are probably not better at UVA. Data about where people end up does not equal placement power.

Well for one, you haven't given a reason as to why his chances wouldn't be better. And for two, I get the point as a general rule...but looking at the data, I would go to a school where more people end up in the location, as a percent of the whole, than a school with fewer.

[pittsburghpirates]

If I were in your shoes, I would go to UVA because the data suggests that higher percentage of their class ends up in DC than at Duke. Also think it's important to note here that UVA's class size is bigger so there are also likely more alumni overall who had the experiences you are planning to pursue. I'm a 0L so take with as much salt as you like and I have no frame of reference on Duke's placement power vs. UVA's, but I'd go with the option where more grads end up in the location you want to be.

That said, the costs are close enough that I would choose whichever option that you liked more. Congrats OP!

[Budfox55]

I don't see how you aren't grasping this. My point was, his chances are probably not better at UVA. Data about where people end up does not equal placement power.

Well for one, you haven't given a reason as to why his chances wouldn't be better. And for two, I get the point as a general rule...but looking at the data, I would go to a school where more people end up in the location, as a percent of the whole, than a school with fewer.

That's not the same as saying one school is objectively better than another at helping a student land in a location because the former places more students there. Too lazy to look up numbers here, but if UVA places more students in DC than Harvard, I would still go to Harvard all else equal if I wanted to go to DC.

I think the OP is asking for insight for things such as whether DC firms reach deeper into UVA's class than Duke. If you have to be in the top 1/3 for both schools and after that its mostly about how you interview, than UVA's placement size into DC may not matter as much.

[existentialcrisis]

I don't see how you aren't grasping this. My point was, his chances are probably not better at UVA. Data about where people end up does not equal placement power.

Well for one, you haven't given a reason as to why his chances wouldn't be better. And for two, I get the point as a general rule...but looking at the data, I would go to a school where more people end up in the location, as a percent of the whole, than a school with fewer.

I want to reiterate that I said OP should go to UVA. It's closer to where he's from and it seems like he's more comfortable there. But, again, if OP had any preference for Durham, wanting DC would not be a good reason not to go to Duke.

The reason why his chances wouldn't be better, is because of the obvious self-selection into DC from UVA. I know a bunch of people that go there, and literally all of them have DC as their first choice. Someone posted on here a while ago that something like 80% of UVA's LR is headed to DC. Do you really think firms have different GPA cutoffs for Duke and UVA? DC is a market that cares a TON about grades, and they care about them a lot at pretty much every school (maybe sans HYS). There is almost no chance DC firms prefer Median UVA bro over median Duke bro. They might be willing to dig deeper into a class to get someone with relevant work experience (like OP seems to have), but I very seriously doubt that going to UVA would be the tie breaker. I guess having alumni to fight for you is relevant, but Duke also has a solid number of alums in DC, and firms also like to diversify their summer classes.

By your logic, Duke is "better" at placing people in NY big law than UVA, which again is almost certainly not the case. UVA places more people in DC than NY, would you seriously suggest it's easier to land DC?

[existentialcrisis]

I think the OP is asking for insight for things such as whether DC firms reach deeper into UVA's class than Duke. If you have to be in the top 1/3 for both schools and after that its mostly about how you interview, than UVA's placement size into DC may not matter as much.

Exactly this.

[20171203]

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[UVAIce]

But the number of firms that come to your school's OGI/OCI does matter when it comes to placement. Yes, you can always do the resume drop, etc., but some of that actually involves knowing something about these firms (trust me, not every good DC shop is on the Vault 100) and even then you're hoping that your one page resume makes the cut for equivalent of a callback interview. So yeah, If I want to work in a particular market I would want to go to the school that feeds into that market so I'm exposed to more job opportunities in that market. If I wanted to work in Chicago I would pick Northwestern over UVA. Not that the Chicago firms likely have any difference in grade cutoffs between Northwestern and UVA, but because more Chicago firms will actively recruit from Northwestern than UVA. Not to mention alumni connections, etc.

And I know students at or around median from UVA that are working in DC for a firm.

[Wolfpac2]

If you want to clerk and you want to end up in DC, UVA is a better option than Duke.

[Nebby]

UVA