Top Law Schools

UPDATE: granted a deferral and doing Michigan 2020 - thanks for all your help, folks!

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hi all, would love your thoughts.

got in some other places but essentially down to these two now because that's where the $$ came from!

-equal $$ from both Michigan and Duke, COA essentially equivalent/I shouldn't have to take out any loans with savings, etc.

-family is in NC, currently working in TX, but also used to live in MI. the big ding in Michigan's column right now is that it's way farther away from home; I have a brother who will be starting college in the fall and would love to be around home. obviously that's a personal thing.

-want to do PI, specifically education law/policy. here's where both are theoretically equivalent, but I would love opinions. one variable - MI does partner with an amazing edu externship program (run out of CLS) that I wouldn't be able to apply to if I was at Duke. both place well in NYC/DC and other markets. am not super picky about where I end up but that's where a lot of edu jobs are (and part of why I decided no on Columbia and NYU, other than the fact that they didn't give me any $$ - didn't want to be another one of the herd looking for NYC jobs.)

-I loved Michigan when I visited/just keep hearing amazing things about the student body there and the general culture. flip side, I went to high school in Durham and also love it there, and have heard wonders about the professors in particular at Duke. both seem to have happy, involved students and good culture.

thanks in advance!

Given that you really want to work on education policy specifically, and have no apparent desire to work in private practice, why are you going to law school instead of a legislator's office/masters of public policy program?

That said, if you're basically going for free, might as well go to Duke. You'll have better access to the DC market, and the policy shops there that will probably get you closer to your career goals.

This is about as close to a coin flip choice as I've ever seen on this site. A rare circumstance where my advice is actually follow your gut.

I can't compare the schools directly, but for your goals I'd take a close look at the LRAP programs and see if there are any meaningful differences. I do see that you're planning not to take out any loans, but if the LRAP is robust enough (and Michigan has a reputation for its excellent LRAP; I know less about Duke's program), it might actually make sense to hold onto your savings and let the school pay for itself (then obviously aim for loan forgiveness after 10 years). This all hinges on you getting a job that qualifies, but hey, far better to pocket that 150k if you know you're doing PI anyway.

@deepseapartners, you raise an important point... I've had work experience in ed and a law degree can often have more reach/street cred if you have relevant work experience in education along with it. these are both schools where I could add an MPP or Master's in Ed if I wanted - or at the very least take classes/work with profs in those other disciplines. plus, I haven't ruled out doing more direct advocacy work for students/schools - I just think I would be more interested in a DoJ/ACLU setting than a firm if I were to go that route.

I get that this stuff might change as I am exposed to new stuff in school, part of why it is important to me to go to school somehwere that has broad enough strengths/resources/faculty diversity - it seems to me that UM, being slightly bigger, has the advantage in that sense?

haha, @Clearly, I've definitely considered it... I'm a lurker/first time poster and mostly did it because I needed to get out of my own head for a bit.

Clearly wrote:This is about as close to a coin flip choice as I've ever seen on this site. A rare circumstance where my advice is actually follow your gut.

This.

For me, neither was especially better for my goals, and my decision largely came down to where I would rather spend 3 years. For you, I'd strongly consider weighing their respective LRAPs. Make sure you would qualify given your anticipated debt. If your debt happens to be low enough that neither LRAP is much help, I'd revert to going with your gut.

At Michigan, you have the comfort of living in the law dorms, but Ann Arbor is very cold.

Duke, I hear you need a car to get around? Someone please confirm.

Both great choices - really can't go wrong. Best of luck, and congratulations.

Duke has graded LRW and Michigan doesn't. Duke students aren't into that.
But follow your gut. Seems like you have good personal reasons to stay in NC.

Can't go wrong either way. Do you prefer football or basketball?

getemgoon wrote:At Michigan, you have the comfort of living in the law dorms, but Ann Arbor is very cold.

Duke, I hear you need a car to get around? Someone please confirm.

Both great choices - really can't go wrong. Best of luck, and congratulations.

I asked an admissions rep about the car thing at Duke, and they said that while it's possible to manage without one, they really recommend having one since Durham is a bit more spread out and rural

herecomesthesun wrote:

getemgoon wrote:At Michigan, you have the comfort of living in the law dorms, but Ann Arbor is very cold.

Duke, I hear you need a car to get around? Someone please confirm.

Both great choices - really can't go wrong. Best of luck, and congratulations.

I asked an admissions rep about the car thing at Duke, and they said that while it's possible to manage without one, they really recommend having one since Durham is a bit more spread out and rural

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0#p9271090

It's really not possible. Or at least, I would not wish upon anyone having to worry both about 1L and about how youre going to do your next trip to the grocery store.

SplitMyPants wrote:

herecomesthesun wrote:

getemgoon wrote:At Michigan, you have the comfort of living in the law dorms, but Ann Arbor is very cold.

Duke, I hear you need a car to get around? Someone please confirm.

Both great choices - really can't go wrong. Best of luck, and congratulations.

I asked an admissions rep about the car thing at Duke, and they said that while it's possible to manage without one, they really recommend having one since Durham is a bit more spread out and rural

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0#p9271090

It's really not possible. Or at least, I would not wish upon anyone having to worry both about 1L and about how youre going to do your next trip to the grocery store.

yes, I know Durham well enough to know I wouldn't want to do it without a car, haha.

and funny enough, I went to UNC... so, new sport, or the chance to stand behind Roy and the boys IN Cameron Indoor? compelling

thanks for the thoughts, all - I guess I was hoping there was some objective metric I had missed out on that someone would point out to make this feel less 'go-how-the-spirit-moves-you'.

I'm very last-minute visiting Duke on Monday and will hopefully feel ready to make a choice after that (sidebar, anyone know why their deposit deadline is so much earlier than other T14? or maybe just the ones I've applied to.)

I'm facing the Duke v. Michigan choice as well, and after much mulling over it seems to come down to the soft factors. Being at Michigan with your brother sounds really fun. Anyway, maybe we'll be classmates. Good luck with your choice.

conflicted3 wrote:I'm facing the Duke v. Michigan choice as well, and after much mulling over it seems to come down to the soft factors. Being at Michigan with your brother sounds really fun. Anyway, maybe we'll be classmates. Good luck with your choice.

thanks! likewise

laliforevar wrote:These are both schools where I could add an MPP or Master's in Ed if I wanted - or at the very least take classes/work with profs in those other disciplines.

Not really qualified to weigh in/give advice as a 0L, but I did just finish an MA at Duke. Fwiw, the PubPol school is literally right across the street from the law school, and the professors/program there are extremely well regarded both on campus and by employers.

That said, I know nothing about Mich's MPP/M ed so not advocating one over the other, just mentioning you absolutely wouldn't be going wrong to land in Durham.

Mich has a well-regarded public policy school right next to the law school as well. University-wide they do more social science research as an overall institution that just about anyone. So, I don't think that cuts in favor of Duke. Also, Duke has easily the lowest 3-year average PI score among the T14, so you may not have much of a 'community'.

STILL, if my family was in NC and I had equivalent COAs, I'd go Duke. It's nice to be by your people.

Since you want to do PI and you received an equal amount of $ from both schools, perhaps you should take into consideration the fact that Michigan's legal writing class is pass/fail, whereas Duke's is graded. I was told by several law students that it makes a difference. Perhaps a current student can chime in on this.

cron1834 wrote:Mich has a well-regarded public policy school right next to the law school as well. University-wide they do more social science research as an overall institution that just about anyone. So, I don't think that cuts in favor of Duke. Also, Duke has easily the lowest 3-year average PI score among the T14, so you may not have much of a 'community'.

STILL, if my family was in NC and I had equivalent COAs, I'd go Duke. It's nice to be by your people.

Duke student here. About public policy: the Michigan pub policy school is strong. Equally strong is the Duke pub policy school, which is literally next door. I get lunch there all the time. (USnews ranks Umich PP #3, duke PP #4). So thats a wash.

Graded legal writing sucks. It straight up blows. You know what is nice? Not having 5 months of winter. We had at tops less than 2 weeks of cold weather. Oh and sundresses. Case made.

Edit: I know out of all the top schools, Duke doesn't place PI a ton. However, the community for PI here is extremely strong and the 1ls get involved literally immediately. Some of my friends were doing PI stuff in the community 2 weeks into 1L. Duke spends a lot of money making sure our PI people and opportunities are top notch and they really are. It just so happens its a smaller part of the class. But also remember Duke is one the smallest law schools in the top 14 (one of the top 3 smallest- Duke, uChicago and Yale). So the percentages can be more deceiving when there is a smaller population at the school to start. But anyway, I had options at most of the t14 and I don't regret coming to Duke for a second (except f*&^ graded legal writing).

Biglaw1990 wrote:Since you want to do PI and you received an equal amount of $ from both schools, perhaps you should take into consideration the fact that Michigan's legal writing class is pass/fail, whereas Duke's is graded. I was told by several law students that it makes a difference. Perhaps a current student can chime in on this.

Graded legal writing is not the best. It does make you actually care more about the class, though, and actually improving your legal writing, which is a small plus since most BAs come in unable to write concisely. But it is an added stress during 1L. In sum, though, I would not choose a school purely on graded LRW.

since we're on the topic of academics, any thoughts on the importance I should place on this externship program?

http://web.law.columbia.edu/public-rese ... e-students

basically you are in NYC for a semester with 20-25 other students from various disciplines (law, biz, education, social work) working as consultants on projects for education-sector clients and also doing a guided seminar with the director, a prof from Columbia Law.

Michigan is a partner school (and the director of externships tells me that every UM student who has done it has gotten a 25k scholly along with it); Duke is not.

obviously I could do Duke in DC or find my own way to an education-related externship in DC or NYC. I don't know how much value to place on the structure/networking that seems likely to come from this other program.

it really feels like the only substantive hands-on opportunity I wouldn't have or be able to match/recreate at Duke.