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That's a really big range with a lot of variability. If you're 170/3.4, you should have decent T14 options since you are looking at biglaw. If you are 167/3.3, not so much.

eta: if the former, something poor in your application could have kept you from getting better offers. Either way, new employment stats should be out (or coming out soon), so definitely keep an eye on those re: what type of firm you want to work in.

lymenheimer wrote:That's a really big range with a lot of variability. If you're 170/3.4, you should have decent T14 options since you are looking at biglaw. If you are 167/3.3, not so much.

Edited, sorry.

Today wrote:

lymenheimer wrote:That's a really big range with a lot of variability. If you're 170/3.4, you should have decent T14 options since you are looking at biglaw. If you are 167/3.3, not so much.

Edited, sorry.

Np. I actually have very similar numbers and got acceptance and decent money at Vandy, WUSTL, UTexas, Duke. I realize you said you applied some places that you didn't really want to attend location-wise, but I'd be careful about "being okay staying in PA because these are your options". If you don't have a throbbing desire to stay in PA, then where else would you like to practice?

lymenheimer wrote:

Today wrote:

lymenheimer wrote:That's a really big range with a lot of variability. If you're 170/3.4, you should have decent T14 options since you are looking at biglaw. If you are 167/3.3, not so much.

Edited, sorry.

Np. I actually have very similar numbers and got acceptance and decent money at Vandy, WUSTL, UTexas, Duke. I realize you said you applied some places that you didn't really want to attend location-wise, but I'd be careful about "being okay staying in PA because these are your options". If you don't have a throbbing desire to stay in PA, then where else would you like to practice?

Don't get me wrong, ending up in central PA or Philly would be a good outcome. I am concerned with the demand for legal services in central PA though. I was generally shooting for the mid-Atlantic region when applying. I should also add that I am generally pretty risk averse when it comes to debt.

Right. And i didnt mean to interject otherwise. It just seems like an interesting reason to choose between these two schools, but I dont know enough about either to give solid advice re: where you should go. But the numbers i got from vandy and some other schools in the range put debt load at a pretty reasonable range, and not much more expensive than temple here for you, with what im sure would be better opportunities, if you are open to the markets that the schools place into.

Eta: I'll let others offer their advice, but I would definitely keep an eye on the employment stats that are about to be released, to ensure that these schools give you a decent shot at doing what you wanna do with your degree.

I had basically identical goals and similar offers from those schools and others in PA, but, as someone seeking employment in Central PA, I can tell you it is very difficult regardless of how well you do in school. Your concerns about the demand are well-founded, there are maybe three firms in the region that regularly hire summer associates that turn into offers (so like 6-10 total people) and the rest of the private firms are fairly small and pretty unpredictable with hiring.

I don't really regret staying but thats based more on personal reasons than the job prospects -- but make sure you understand how tough it will be. I think you're overestimating the ties thing to Philly, especially if you go to school there or at least do summer jobs there during law school, but someone else might know that better than me.

jchiles wrote:I had basically identical goals and similar offers from those schools and others in PA, but, as someone seeking employment in Central PA, I can tell you it is very difficult regardless of how well you do in school. Your concerns about the demand are well-founded, there are maybe three firms in the region that regularly hire summer associates that turn into offers (so like 6-10 total people) and the rest of the private firms are fairly small and pretty unpredictable with hiring.

I don't really regret staying but thats based more on personal reasons than the job prospects -- but make sure you understand how tough it will be. I think you're overestimating the ties thing to Philly, especially if you go to school there or at least do summer jobs there during law school, but someone else might know that better than me.

Thank you for your input. Do you have any experience with the hiring process of some of these smaller firms? Are they generally looking for recent grads? I assume they don't really consider an applicant unless they've passed the bar.

lymenheimer wrote:Right. And i didnt mean to interject otherwise. It just seems like an interesting reason to choose between these two schools, but I dont know enough about either to give solid advice re: where you should go. But the numbers i got from vandy and some other schools in the range put debt load at a pretty reasonable range, and not much more expensive than temple here for you, with what im sure would be better opportunities, if you are open to the markets that the schools place into.

Eta: I'll let others offer their advice, but I would definitely keep an eye on the employment stats that are about to be released, to ensure that these schools give you a decent shot at doing what you wanna do with your degree.

Yeah, these schools have released the data and both place about 60% in full time bar required positions and Temple has about 17% in BL&FC, but like I said, not expecting that outcome so I haven't really factored it in.

I've been lurking constantly for about a year now and I'm pretty cynical, but despite the negatives, I feel like I understand what I'm getting myself into with a career in law and it's something I think I would enjoy. So I'm good on that side of things, I'm just not certain that 60% is worth the gamble. I'm currently making 45k with little upward mobility or expectation of a pay increase. My biggest fear is not finding something within a year or two after graduation and my JD sabotaging any attempt at finding professional work outside of law.

Today wrote:

jchiles wrote:I had basically identical goals and similar offers from those schools and others in PA, but, as someone seeking employment in Central PA, I can tell you it is very difficult regardless of how well you do in school. Your concerns about the demand are well-founded, there are maybe three firms in the region that regularly hire summer associates that turn into offers (so like 6-10 total people) and the rest of the private firms are fairly small and pretty unpredictable with hiring.

I don't really regret staying but thats based more on personal reasons than the job prospects -- but make sure you understand how tough it will be. I think you're overestimating the ties thing to Philly, especially if you go to school there or at least do summer jobs there during law school, but someone else might know that better than me.

Thank you for your input. Do you have any experience with the hiring process of some of these smaller firms? Are they generally looking for recent grads? I assume they don't really consider an applicant unless they've passed the bar.

It varies a lot, I know several places of like 8-20 attorneys that will hire students of the summer and during the school year and will hire those students before graduation if they think they need someone. There are a couple even smaller firms that do the same thing, or will look to hire someone during the summer. PM me if you want more specifics, I don't think there is a general rule here. Small firms in this area for the most part would start you off with more money than you're making now, but even the "big" firms in the area aren't paying six figures for new associates.

jchiles wrote:

Today wrote:

jchiles wrote:I had basically identical goals and similar offers from those schools and others in PA, but, as someone seeking employment in Central PA, I can tell you it is very difficult regardless of how well you do in school. Your concerns about the demand are well-founded, there are maybe three firms in the region that regularly hire summer associates that turn into offers (so like 6-10 total people) and the rest of the private firms are fairly small and pretty unpredictable with hiring.

I don't really regret staying but thats based more on personal reasons than the job prospects -- but make sure you understand how tough it will be. I think you're overestimating the ties thing to Philly, especially if you go to school there or at least do summer jobs there during law school, but someone else might know that better than me.

Thank you for your input. Do you have any experience with the hiring process of some of these smaller firms? Are they generally looking for recent grads? I assume they don't really consider an applicant unless they've passed the bar.

It varies a lot, I know several places of like 8-20 attorneys that will hire students of the summer and during the school year and will hire those students before graduation if they think they need someone. There are a couple even smaller firms that do the same thing, or will look to hire someone during the summer. PM me if you want more specifics, I don't think there is a general rule here. Small firms in this area for the most part would start you off with more money than you're making now, but even the "big" firms in the area aren't paying six figures for new associates.

Finding info on the hiring process of smaller firms has been pretty difficult, mostly due to how erratic it can be from firm to firm I assume. I've spoken to a few attorneys in the area and have a decent sense of what a salary would look like in the first few years. Low cost of living is the huge benefit.

Am I correct in assuming that you mean PSU Dickinson in Carlisle, not Penn State in State College?

Edit: I ask because I'd recommend Dickinson-Carlisle over Penn State if you want to work in the Harrisburg area. Almost every attorney I've ever met from that area has been a Dickinson (usually pre-PSU) or a Temple grad, and many don't look too favorably on what's perceived as the PSU takeover of their school - and are rather pleased about the re-separation and re-establishment of a separate Dickinson. That said, if you're looking at Philly, Temple might be a better option because it would give you a little more flexibility as to Philly or Harrisburg because going to Temple helps to establish your ties in Philly and the BL+Fed numbers are much higher than Dickinson. 2015 was the first year that Dickinson reported separate numbers, so it's hard to really tell how it will look going forward, but 1 grad getting BL and 1 grad landing a clerkship essentially precludes that option for you if that's how it will look going forward.

thereelfeels wrote:Am I correct in assuming that you mean PSU Dickinson in Carlisle, not Penn State in State College?

Edit: I ask because I'd recommend Dickinson-Carlisle over Penn State if you want to work in the Harrisburg area. Almost every attorney I've ever met from that area has been a Dickinson (usually pre-PSU) or a Temple grad, and many don't look too favorably on what's perceived as the PSU takeover of their school - and are rather pleased about the re-separation and re-establishment of a separate Dickinson. That said, if you're looking at Philly, Temple might be a better option because it would give you a little more flexibility as to Philly or Harrisburg because going to Temple helps to establish your ties in Philly and the BL+Fed numbers are much higher than Dickinson. 2015 was the first year that Dickinson reported separate numbers, so it's hard to really tell how it will look going forward, but 1 grad getting BL and 1 grad landing a clerkship essentially precludes that option for you if that's how it will look going forward.

I didn't apply to UP for exactly these reasons.