Yale vs. Harvard vs. Ruby; Family Considerations Forum

[pterodactyls]

I'm just a 0L. But it seems like you have three incredible options, each of which would lead you to great opportunities. So I would say "happy wife, happy life" and let her be the deciding factor.

[jbagelboy]

All career advancement for any unicornish-type outcomes require sucking up to the right people at any law school.

All elite law schools (and most non-elite ones) focus on theory rather than legal practice.

Ask yourself who would be in a position to realistically compare the overall commitment to teaching, and general pedogogic effectiveness, of the HLS and Chicago faculties? (Spoiler: no one).

I guess the lost in the crowd thing might not be completely spurious though.

I agree with all of this. As for the theory vs. practice thing, I do think YLS has a fairly-earned reputation for being particularly heavy on theory. You'll learn less black letter law there than you will at HLS or Chicago. In spite of that, YLS grads have high bar passage rates and make fine practicing attorneys. YLS's theory-heavy focus shouldn't be a significant factor in your decision.

All this is very true; on the other hand, Koh requires perfect attendance in civ pro, which is exponentially worse than having a curve. Decisions decisions!

[cannonballer]

As someone who is also married and dealing with juggling similar factors, I agree with those who say go to HLS if your wife gets the job. Since you'll have no income she won't pay as much in taxes as she would if you were working, and you should still be able to save a good chunk of her salary for your school costs (unless her job assumes a biglaw type lifestyle that demands a lot of spending).

For me, Yale would probably be out, as hard as that is to say. I just don't think the perceived benefits are legitimate enough to move your family to New Haven. And I also really don't think it will be as hard to land a good PI job from HLS as a lot of people on here makes it seem...As for getting lost in the crowd, I think that what's important at a big place like HLS is finding your niche with the right organizations and communities, and making connections with the professors who are interesting to you. Since you are already committed to PI and have a strong idea of the issues you want to pursue, I really wouldn't worry that you'll be lost.

I don't know enough about Chicago but the financial incentive plus having family in Illinois are two huge bonuses. Chicago is an amazing school and the opportunity to graduate nearly debt free is an extremely liberating prospect that shouldn't be discounted, especially if you'll be LIPP ineligible.

[sophiethecat]

What a hard choice! I'm in the same position, and leaning heavily toward Chicago (though I may be swayed after Yale's ASW this weekend, I doubt it. And I've already ruled Harvard out). However, given your wife's job prospects, I think I would go with HLS if I were in your shoes. Your debt load won't be as bad because of the increase in salary, and it sounds like the job will open a lot of doors for her. I share the concern about a big school with you, but bigger = more opportunities, too.

That being said, I hope you join me at UChicago!

[WinterComing]

Bumping this, as requested, with the following update: My wife didn't get the job in Boston.

(Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that, and they say they are impressed by her and they're keeping her in mind, but the TLDR is that they can't afford her right now, unless something dramatic changes.)

That, to me, completely rules out Harvard. I think if you're someone (like me) who prefers a small law school to a big one and who isn't hung up on lay prestige or Supreme Court clerkships, you could probably make an argument for going to Chicago over Harvard at close to even money. At a $220K difference, there's no competition.

So now this becomes more of a classic Ruby vs. Yale debate, and I know that, in recent times at least, this board prefers Ruby. I probably should too, given the debt aversion that comes with having a small child, but I'm actually leaning heavily toward Yale.

I have two primary reasons:

1. I absolutely could get the job I want from Chicago, but I think my chances at it are much better at Yale. And I think the difference is enough to justify the price.
2. Surprisingly, my wife now prefers Yale. Moving cross-country with a newborn will be a monumental task, one that she thinks will be easier in a small town than a big city. And she'd be able to work from home in New Haven, which is appealing. (I think she could just as easily work from home in Chicago, but she disagrees; I'm just the messenger.)

Feel free to weigh in if this changes your opinion, especially if you voted Harvard before. I'll also put up a new poll.

[pittsburghpirates]

Bumping this, as requested, with the following update: My wife didn't get the job in Boston.

(Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that, and they say they are impressed by her and they're keeping her in mind, but the TLDR is that they can't afford her right now, unless something dramatic changes.)

That, to me, completely rules out Harvard. I think if you're someone (like me) who prefers a small law school to a big one and who isn't hung up on lay prestige or Supreme Court clerkships, you could probably make an argument for going to Chicago over Harvard at close to even money. At a $220K difference, there's no competition.

So now this becomes more of a classic Ruby vs. Yale debate, and I know that, in recent times at least, this board prefers Ruby. I probably should too, given the debt aversion that comes with having a small child, but I'm actually leaning heavily toward Yale.

I have two primary reasons:

1. I absolutely could get the job I want from Chicago, but I think my chances at it are much better at Yale. And I think the difference is enough to justify the price.
2. Surprisingly, my wife now prefers Yale. Moving cross-country with a newborn will be a monumental task, one that she thinks will be easier in a small town than a big city. And she'd be able to work from home in New Haven, which is appealing. (I think she could just as easily work from home in Chicago, but she disagrees; I'm just the messenger.)

Feel free to weigh in if this changes your opinion, especially if you voted Harvard before. I'll also put up a new poll.

I'm a 0L as well, but I also agree with the "happy wife, happy life" principle here. All of your choices are excellent, and based on the posts ITT from folks who are either practicing or are current law students it does sound like Yale could provide at least a bit of a bump to help you achieve your goals. Plus the fact that your wife now prefers it, I think would be enough to swing in Yale's favor here. The Ruby would definitely be tough to turn down, but you've clearly given this a ton of thought and consideration so I would go with your gut and where your wife would prefer to be for three years.

I didn't vote before but would have probably voted for Harvard had your wife gotten the job in Boston. Either way, congrats again on an amazing cycle and some great options.

[jnwa]

Bumping this, as requested, with the following update: My wife didn't get the job in Boston.

(Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that, and they say they are impressed by her and they're keeping her in mind, but the TLDR is that they can't afford her right now, unless something dramatic changes.)

That, to me, completely rules out Harvard. I think if you're someone (like me) who prefers a small law school to a big one and who isn't hung up on lay prestige or Supreme Court clerkships, you could probably make an argument for going to Chicago over Harvard at close to even money. At a $220K difference, there's no competition.

So now this becomes more of a classic Ruby vs. Yale debate, and I know that, in recent times at least, this board prefers Ruby. I probably should too, given the debt aversion that comes with having a small child, but I'm actually leaning heavily toward Yale.

I have two primary reasons:

1. I absolutely could get the job I want from Chicago, but I think my chances at it are much better at Yale. And I think the difference is enough to justify the price.
2. Surprisingly, my wife now prefers Yale. Moving cross-country with a newborn will be a monumental task, one that she thinks will be easier in a small town than a big city. And she'd be able to work from home in New Haven, which is appealing. (I think she could just as easily work from home in Chicago, but she disagrees; I'm just the messenger.)

Feel free to weigh in if this changes your opinion, especially if you voted Harvard before. I'll also put up a new poll.

Damn. Yale worth 220k more? Im risk/debt averse and am still of the belief that the Ruby is the best outcome possible. Yet it seems like your chances of getting the job you want are substantially better at Yale and merely require good, not insanely good, grades. Plus you have a successful wife thatd rather go to New Haven. The fact that she has good earning potential, evidenced by the Boston job, probably means the debt stings a little less. Id say follow your dreams to New Haven. Congrats again.

[jetsfan1]

Bumping this, as requested, with the following update: My wife didn't get the job in Boston.

(Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that, and they say they are impressed by her and they're keeping her in mind, but the TLDR is that they can't afford her right now, unless something dramatic changes.)

That, to me, completely rules out Harvard. I think if you're someone (like me) who prefers a small law school to a big one and who isn't hung up on lay prestige or Supreme Court clerkships, you could probably make an argument for going to Chicago over Harvard at close to even money. At a $220K difference, there's no competition.

So now this becomes more of a classic Ruby vs. Yale debate, and I know that, in recent times at least, this board prefers Ruby. I probably should too, given the debt aversion that comes with having a small child, but I'm actually leaning heavily toward Yale.

I have two primary reasons:

1. I absolutely could get the job I want from Chicago, but I think my chances at it are much better at Yale. And I think the difference is enough to justify the price.
2. Surprisingly, my wife now prefers Yale. Moving cross-country with a newborn will be a monumental task, one that she thinks will be easier in a small town than a big city. And she'd be able to work from home in New Haven, which is appealing. (I think she could just as easily work from home in Chicago, but she disagrees; I'm just the messenger.)

Feel free to weigh in if this changes your opinion, especially if you voted Harvard before. I'll also put up a new poll.

Oh man, very tough... this is coming from someone who selfishly kind of wants you to come to Yale because you seem like a cool dude, but here goes...

Ok first off I think in the end letting your wife "make" the decision is the right choice, and if she wants Yale then go for it. But in your situation I would be really hesitant about the debt right as you are starting your family (side note: did you get any aid from Y? I know having dependents can up what they give you significantly). Having to pay off 200k+ in debt will be really tough especially if you aren't eligible for COAP because of your wife's salary. And even if you are you will be in debt until your daughter is in her teens. Saving for college for her, etc. is going to be very tough, especially with your PI track.

I'm not saying Y is wrong here, but I think it would be good to sit down with your wife and plan out your finances together over the next 20 years. How much will the debt effect it? Can your wife reasonable be expecting to be making 6 figures over the majority of that time (I'd bet she can - she sounds awesome)? How much would you like to save for your kids' college (do you want more as well)? All these questions I would map out over a 20 year period with her. If it ends up working out, Y is a great option. But before she decides she wants Y over C make sure you guys have thought all this through. Not saying you don't, but this is a very difficult choice.

Best of luck Winter!

[WinterComing]

Oh man, very tough... this is coming from someone who selfishly kind of wants you to come to Yale because you seem like a cool dude, but here goes...

Ok first off I think in the end letting your wife "make" the decision is the right choice, and if she wants Yale then go for it. But in your situation I would be really hesitant about the debt right as you are starting your family (side note: did you get any aid from Y? I know having dependents can up what they give you significantly). Having to pay off 200k+ in debt will be really tough especially if you aren't eligible for COAP because of your wife's salary. And even if you are you will be in debt until your daughter is in her teens. Saving for college for her, etc. is going to be very tough, especially with your PI track.

I'm not saying Y is wrong here, but I think it would be good to sit down with your wife and plan out your finances together over the next 20 years. How much will the debt effect it? Can your wife reasonable be expecting to be making 6 figures over the majority of that time (I'd bet she can - she sounds awesome)? How much would you like to save for your kids' college (do you want more as well)? All these questions I would map out over a 20 year period with her. If it ends up working out, Y is a great option. But before she decides she wants Y over C make sure you guys have thought all this through. Not saying you don't, but this is a very difficult choice.

Best of luck Winter!

Jets, you saying Chicago definitely makes an impression, because you're a smart guy and because (if I'm not mistaken) you are yourself choosing Yale over the Ruby.

Obviously, going to Chicago would maximize our future wealth, including our retirement savings and our daughter's college fund and all the other things that we need more money for. Of course, working in Big Law would also maximize my future wealth, but I don't want to do that either.

Over the weekend, my wife and I did exactly what you suggest, making a budget for the next three years to calculate our debt and then projecting how it will impact our future. I think we can handle it. As I mentioned in the OP, we can limit debt by spending savings. Again, spending that money now doesn't maximize our future net worth, but it does mitigate to some extent the risk of the debt imperiling our daughter's future. (And some of that money is left over from my undergrad college fund, so I can rationalize putting it toward education.)

All that said, you're absolutely right, taking on this debt is a risk not only for me, but for our whole family. I can't do that lightly.

[jetsfan1]

Oh man, very tough... this is coming from someone who selfishly kind of wants you to come to Yale because you seem like a cool dude, but here goes...

Ok first off I think in the end letting your wife "make" the decision is the right choice, and if she wants Yale then go for it. But in your situation I would be really hesitant about the debt right as you are starting your family (side note: did you get any aid from Y? I know having dependents can up what they give you significantly). Having to pay off 200k+ in debt will be really tough especially if you aren't eligible for COAP because of your wife's salary. And even if you are you will be in debt until your daughter is in her teens. Saving for college for her, etc. is going to be very tough, especially with your PI track.

I'm not saying Y is wrong here, but I think it would be good to sit down with your wife and plan out your finances together over the next 20 years. How much will the debt effect it? Can your wife reasonable be expecting to be making 6 figures over the majority of that time (I'd bet she can - she sounds awesome)? How much would you like to save for your kids' college (do you want more as well)? All these questions I would map out over a 20 year period with her. If it ends up working out, Y is a great option. But before she decides she wants Y over C make sure you guys have thought all this through. Not saying you don't, but this is a very difficult choice.

Best of luck Winter!

Jets, you saying Chicago definitely makes an impression, because you're a smart guy and because (if I'm not mistaken) you are yourself choosing Yale over the Ruby.

Obviously, going to Chicago would maximize our future wealth, including our retirement savings and our daughter's college fund and all the other things that we need more money for. Of course, working in Big Law would also maximize my future wealth, but I don't want to do that either.

Over the weekend, my wife and I did exactly what you suggest, making a budget for the next three years to calculate our debt and then projecting how it will impact our future. I think we can handle it. As I mentioned in the OP, we can limit debt by spending savings. Again, spending that money now doesn't maximize our future net worth, but it does mitigate to some extent the risk of the debt imperiling our daughter's future. (And some of that money is left over from my undergrad college fund, so I can rationalize putting it toward education.)

All that said, you're absolutely right, taking on this debt is a risk not only for me, but for our whole family. I can't do that lightly.

On your first point: Yeah I took Y over the Ruby, but I also got a very nice amount of Y aid, am a bit younger and (criminally) single. I do have the same unicorn-ish goals as you though, albeit in a different area of law. I do think for the majority of applicants the Ruby makes more sense than Y, I'm just not one of them.

To be clear though, I don't think there's a totally wrong choice here. If you've sat down and projected out your finances for the next decade or so with your wife and you guys can absorb the debt, than Y has a much stronger argument. Obviously I'm not privy to that information, and that along with what your wife wants would be the two biggest factors for me. I would lean C, but if both of those elements are leaning Y, it becomes a lot tougher. Can you and your wife visit New Haven before next Monday to see how much she likes it?

[sophiethecat]

I'm a OL, so my advice for which school to pick is obviously probably not very useful. However, I lived in New Haven for five years for grad school, and have lived in Hyde Park for the last year. Obviously everyone has different preferences, but if I were your wife I would 100% pick Hyde Park over New Haven. I very much liked New Haven (and get annoyed by how anti-New Haven TLS is at times), but one refrain I heard over and over again in New Haven is that spouses and partners of Yale students feel very isolated and New Haven doesn't provide a lot of alternatives. Hyde Park, on the other hand, feels a lot like New Haven (it has that sleepy college town vibe), but Chicago is a quick drive away and offers a plethora of opportunities in terms of cool people and things to do. Also, FWIW, I was pleasantly surprised by how affordable Hyde Park is compared to New Haven. I expected to be paying significantly more than I was in New Haven, but the rents are about comparable (as is food and drink, though gas is more expensive here).

If you have any specific other questions thinking about quality of life in New Haven versus Hyde Park, I'd be happy to answer them.

[cannonballer]

Can you and your wife visit New Haven before next Monday to see how much she likes it?

I would echo that sentiment - if you and your wife have never been to New Haven I would strongly suggest visiting before committing to spend the next three years there at considerable financial expense. I know that in my situation this was hugely important for my husband, and he ended up feeling very differently about certain cities than he expected. I would just really, really want to me sure that your wife truly prefers being in a new place that has a reputation for being isolating to spouses of Yale students, away from all family, working from home without any sort of established social network beyond the one that you will build as a student. It might still be the right decision, but I wouldn't make it lightly.

[WinterComing]

Can you and your wife visit New Haven before next Monday to see how much she likes it?

If I were your wife I would 100% pick Hyde Park over New Haven.

if you and your wife have never been to New Haven I would strongly suggest visiting before committing to spend the next three years there at considerable financial expense.

Unfortunately, we're not going to be able to visit. I got into Yale on 4/2, and the deadline to accept the Ruby is 4/19. That didn't leave much time to fit in a visit, especially with my wife being chained to a breastfeeding six-week-old.

I did have a conversation with my wife today over lunch though, where I basically read a few of your posts to her and said, in essence, "Look, I know you're leaning toward Yale, but you just have to know that the debt is going to change our standard of living for a decade or more, and many Yale students' spouses don't like New Haven, and you'd be committing to live there for three years sight-unseen." And she was like, "Yeah, I understand all that, but I still think it's the best thing to do."

[rpupkin]

I did have a conversation with my wife today over lunch though, where I basically read a few of your posts to her and said, in essence, "Look, I know you're leaning toward Yale, but you just have to know that the debt is going to change our standard of living for a decade or more, and many Yale students' spouses don't like New Haven, and you'd be committing to live there for three years sight-unseen." And she was like, "Yeah, I understand all that, but I still think it's the best thing to do."

I'm glad your wife is supportive. You're lucky in more ways than one. But there's a part of me that still feels like trying to stop you from making this choice.

Maybe you'll get top grades at YLS, impress all the key profs, and land a SCOTUS clerkship. If that happens, you'll think: "I'm so glad that we chose YLS!"

But chances are you'll end up in roughly the same place as you would have out of Chicago, and you'll think: "Why did I compromise my family's long-term QOL so that I could attend one stupid law school instead of another stupid law school?"

[sophiethecat]

Then it sounds like Yale is your best bet! As I said, I actually really enjoyed living in New Haven. I recommend the East Rock area, it's very family friendly (as is Wooster Square). Yale has some events geared at connecting partners of Yale students, so keep your eyes out for those. Good luck with everything!

[WinterComing]

Thanks again to everyone for all of the advice. My wife talked things over with her bosses today, and apparently they've been wanting to open an East Coast office, and she would have the option of becoming a partner in the business and hiring a staff and such. So I'm going to Yale. I'll report back in a decade or so to say whether I think it was the right decision.

[pittsburghpirates]

Thanks again to everyone for all of the advice. My wife talked things over with her bosses today, and apparently they've been wanting to open an East Coast office, and she would have the option of becoming a partner in the business and hiring a staff and such. So I'm going to Yale. I'll report back in a decade or so to say whether I think it was the right decision.

Congrats to both you and your wife!

[tsujimoto74]

Congrats again to you and your wife! It sounds like you've both got lots of wonderful things ahead of you.

[sflyr2016]

Congrats!!

[tflan19]

Thanks again to everyone for all of the advice. My wife talked things over with her bosses today, and apparently they've been wanting to open an East Coast office, and she would have the option of becoming a partner in the business and hiring a staff and such. So I'm going to Yale. I'll report back in a decade or so to say whether I think it was the right decision.

congratulations on Yale and on an overall amazing cycle!!

[anonymous117]

Congratulations!! I lurk far more than I post, and have been so impressed by your cycle/your clear ambitions (and ability to stay so level-headed when choosing between such amazing options)/your fantastic and supportive wife I just voted for Yale in the poll to break the tie and reaffirm your choice. Good luck!!

[mathis1490]

These poll numbers are ridiculous.

[Tiago Splitter]

I did have a conversation with my wife today over lunch though, where I basically read a few of your posts to her and said, in essence, "Look, I know you're leaning toward Yale, but you just have to know that the debt is going to change our standard of living for a decade or more, and many Yale students' spouses don't like New Haven, and you'd be committing to live there for three years sight-unseen." And she was like, "Yeah, I understand all that, but I still think it's the best thing to do."

I'm glad your wife is supportive. You're lucky in more ways than one. But there's a part of me that still feels like trying to stop you from making this choice.

Maybe you'll get top grades at YLS, impress all the key profs, and land a SCOTUS clerkship. If that happens, you'll think: "I'm so glad that we chose YLS!"

But chances are you'll end up in roughly the same place as you would have out of Chicago, and you'll think: "Why did I compromise my family's long-term QOL so that I could attend one stupid law school instead of another stupid law school?"

This is my view as well but do what you gotta do.

[Catsinthebag]

Potentially identifying personal info which I'd prefer you not quote

I filled with equal parts envy and pity reading this. If y'all are as emotionally strong as it seems you are competent, ambitious, forward-looking, etc., then this choice will be largely inconsequential (from your career's standpoint) in 20 years. Kudos to her for making this decision... don't ever forget she did! Best of luck!

[LoganCouture]

Edit: all good now