Top Law Schools

So I am mainly now picking between the three schools mentioned (Columbia, NYU, UVA). I have $30k/yr at UVA and will also be getting in-state tuition. At the others I would be paying sticker.

Total COA (minus savings & scholarships (uva only))
Columbia: $180k
NYU: $180k
UVA: $45k

I will be financing from loans after I go through savings. As for ties, I have moved around quite a bit. Have loose ties to the New England area. Mainly have lived in the mid-atlantic (DC/MD/VA) area for the past few years so have some solid ties to that area. Would like to go into IP law, probably litigation or possibly IP M&A work. Ideally boutique firm but I realize how unlikely that is so I will most likely try for big-law. Also, I was a mechanical engineering undergrad and by the time I start law school I should have passed the patent bar (taking it this summer). Don't have a huge preference for where I end up practicing. Would be fine sticking around the east coast for a few years but may want to give the west coast a shot at some point in my life. I know that isn't helpful at all, but honestly I don't have a huge desire to live in one specific place. Picking a better/more appealing job is more important to me than a specific region.

3.4/172- took LSAT twice.

Thank you all ahead of time for any advice. I think I realize what I should do (pick UVA) but the allure of Columbia is quite strong. Not sure if it can be justified for ~$180k extra by the time I am done with loan payments.

I think UVA is the clear choice. With your patent background, I doubt you'll have that much trouble finding a job. Columbia's increased placement probably does little good for you--certainly not $135K worth of good.

UVA by a mile. Not even close to being close. If you have a ton of money or parents are paying for some of it that might be another discussion, but if you're financing through loans you should most definitely choose UVA

I'm not familiar with any calculation that would make Columbia worth $135k more than UVA, so NYU definitely isn't worth that much more. Take UVA and don't look back.

Yeah, I don't really see why you wouldn't go with UVA, is there any hesitation on your part?

Thank you guys so much. What is mainly giving me hesitation is having gone to admitted students day at Columbia & NYU and hearing so many people say that they were immediately ready to sign to go to either school at sticker where they must have had some great offers at slightly lower ranked schools. Also have never spent much time in NYC so I think it would be awesome to live there but I guess I could just go to UVA, save $180k, pay off loans, save, and then even live there unemployed with how much I would save not going to columbia at sticker.

redsxfan2010 wrote:Thank you guys so much. What is mainly giving me hesitation is having gone to admitted students day at Columbia & NYU and hearing so many people say that they were immediately ready to sign to go to either school at sticker where they must have had some great offers at slightly lower ranked schools. Also have never spent much time in NYC so I think it would be awesome to live there but I guess I could just go to UVA, save $180k, pay off loans, save, and then even live there unemployed with how much I would save not going to columbia at sticker.

Get summer gigs in NYC if you want to experience it, in the meantime enjoy saving 180k at UVA

DCfilterDC wrote:

redsxfan2010 wrote:Thank you guys so much. What is mainly giving me hesitation is having gone to admitted students day at Columbia & NYU and hearing so many people say that they were immediately ready to sign to go to either school at sticker where they must have had some great offers at slightly lower ranked schools. Also have never spent much time in NYC so I think it would be awesome to live there but I guess I could just go to UVA, save $180k, pay off loans, save, and then even live there unemployed with how much I would save not going to columbia at sticker.

Get summer gigs in NYC if you want to experience it, in the meantime enjoy saving 180k at UVA

Haha true true. Funny too how it is termed "saving" money, where what I am doing is basically just spending less. I guess my huge hope is that with the $45k COA for UVA I can snag an internship 1L and 2L then finish up with basically no loans

UVA is of course the choice. You don't know what other options other had or how much money they may have. Don't take in 6 figures of debt for law school.

redsxfan2010 wrote:Thank you guys so much. What is mainly giving me hesitation is having gone to admitted students day at Columbia & NYU and hearing so many people say that they were immediately ready to sign to go to either school at sticker where they must have had some great offers at slightly lower ranked schools. Also have never spent much time in NYC so I think it would be awesome to live there but I guess I could just go to UVA, save $180k, pay off loans, save, and then even live there unemployed with how much I would save not going to columbia at sticker.

Here's the most recent USNews "debt rankings for law school" info:

Columbia:
Average LS debt for those with debt: $168,627
Percentage with LS debt: 59%

So 40% of the class didnt have any debt.

NYU:

Average LS debt for those with debt: $166,022
Percentage with LS debt: 69%

So 30% of the class didn't have any LS debt.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... ngs/page+5

I don't see what these people's choices have anything to do with your choice....perhaps they are all funded by parents.

redsxfan2010 wrote:What is mainly giving me hesitation is having gone to admitted students day at Columbia & NYU and hearing so many people say that they were immediately ready to sign to go to either school at sticker where they must have had some great offers at slightly lower ranked schools.

Be very suspicious of anything someone participating in an ASW has to tell you. I'm pretty sure they aren't sending completely honest brokers to those. It's a sales show, man! Go back to CLS/NYU on a non-glitzy day and randomly poll some kids and see what they say. Or, better yet, look to what the many CLS/NYU alums have to say about debt loads, etc. Take. The. Money.

To keep up my ASW rant, did you happen to hear from anyone that the biggest drawbacks of their schools are that there's just so much to get involved in that it's hard to choose exactly what to do? Doesn't that sound like the classic interview answer to the "what are your weaknesses?" questions?

fliptrip wrote:

redsxfan2010 wrote:What is mainly giving me hesitation is having gone to admitted students day at Columbia & NYU and hearing so many people say that they were immediately ready to sign to go to either school at sticker where they must have had some great offers at slightly lower ranked schools.

Be very suspicious of anything someone participating in an ASW has to tell you. I'm pretty sure they aren't sending completely honest brokers to those. It's a sales show, man! Go back to CLS/NYU on a non-glitzy day and randomly poll some kids and see what they say. Or, better yet, look to what the many CLS/NYU alums have to say about debt loads, etc. Take. The. Money.

To keep up my ASW rant, did you happen to hear from anyone that the biggest drawbacks of their schools are that there's just so much to get involved in that it's hard to choose exactly what to do? Doesn't that sound like the classic interview answer to the "what are your weaknesses?" questions?

I think Redsxfan2010 was referring to what he was told by fellow admitted-students, not the schools' song and dance sales pitch. I can confirm that there were plenty of bright-eyed kids at the HLS ASW who were equally ready to sell their souls because they were seduced by the aura. But ultimately, other people making a bad decision shouldn't cause you to make the same one. Don't be a lemming.

WinterComing wrote:

fliptrip wrote:

redsxfan2010 wrote:What is mainly giving me hesitation is having gone to admitted students day at Columbia & NYU and hearing so many people say that they were immediately ready to sign to go to either school at sticker where they must have had some great offers at slightly lower ranked schools.

Be very suspicious of anything someone participating in an ASW has to tell you. I'm pretty sure they aren't sending completely honest brokers to those. It's a sales show, man! Go back to CLS/NYU on a non-glitzy day and randomly poll some kids and see what they say. Or, better yet, look to what the many CLS/NYU alums have to say about debt loads, etc. Take. The. Money.

To keep up my ASW rant, did you happen to hear from anyone that the biggest drawbacks of their schools are that there's just so much to get involved in that it's hard to choose exactly what to do? Doesn't that sound like the classic interview answer to the "what are your weaknesses?" questions?

I think Redsxfan2010 was referring to what he was told by fellow admitted-students, not the schools' song and dance sales pitch. I can confirm that there were plenty of bright-eyed kids at the HLS ASW who were equally ready to sell their souls because they were seduced by the aura. But ultimately, other people making a bad decision shouldn't cause you to make the same one. Don't be a lemming.

Yup, exactly. It was admitted students who were talking about how they were ready to sign. But yeah I don't want to be a lemming, just making sure I wasn't missing anything.

Also fliptrip, the dean of CLS saying the biggest weakness was actually things she viewed as strengths and room for improvement made me audibly laugh quite hard. She lost me for the rest of her speech because of that response.

redsxfan2010 wrote:

WinterComing wrote:

fliptrip wrote:

redsxfan2010 wrote:What is mainly giving me hesitation is having gone to admitted students day at Columbia & NYU and hearing so many people say that they were immediately ready to sign to go to either school at sticker where they must have had some great offers at slightly lower ranked schools.

Be very suspicious of anything someone participating in an ASW has to tell you. I'm pretty sure they aren't sending completely honest brokers to those. It's a sales show, man! Go back to CLS/NYU on a non-glitzy day and randomly poll some kids and see what they say. Or, better yet, look to what the many CLS/NYU alums have to say about debt loads, etc. Take. The. Money.

To keep up my ASW rant, did you happen to hear from anyone that the biggest drawbacks of their schools are that there's just so much to get involved in that it's hard to choose exactly what to do? Doesn't that sound like the classic interview answer to the "what are your weaknesses?" questions?

I think Redsxfan2010 was referring to what he was told by fellow admitted-students, not the schools' song and dance sales pitch. I can confirm that there were plenty of bright-eyed kids at the HLS ASW who were equally ready to sell their souls because they were seduced by the aura. But ultimately, other people making a bad decision shouldn't cause you to make the same one. Don't be a lemming.

Yup, exactly. It was admitted students who were talking about how they were ready to sign. But yeah I don't want to be a lemming, just making sure I wasn't missing anything.

Also fliptrip, the dean of CLS saying the biggest weakness was actually things she viewed as strengths and room for improvement made me audibly laugh quite hard. She lost me for the rest of her speech because of that response.

Was there at least some free liquor available? I've noticed many stories of drunken revelry, which seems to be the most valuable output of these shindigs.

redsxfan2010 wrote:

WinterComing wrote:

fliptrip wrote:

redsxfan2010 wrote:What is mainly giving me hesitation is having gone to admitted students day at Columbia & NYU and hearing so many people say that they were immediately ready to sign to go to either school at sticker where they must have had some great offers at slightly lower ranked schools.

Be very suspicious of anything someone participating in an ASW has to tell you. I'm pretty sure they aren't sending completely honest brokers to those. It's a sales show, man! Go back to CLS/NYU on a non-glitzy day and randomly poll some kids and see what they say. Or, better yet, look to what the many CLS/NYU alums have to say about debt loads, etc. Take. The. Money.

To keep up my ASW rant, did you happen to hear from anyone that the biggest drawbacks of their schools are that there's just so much to get involved in that it's hard to choose exactly what to do? Doesn't that sound like the classic interview answer to the "what are your weaknesses?" questions?

I think Redsxfan2010 was referring to what he was told by fellow admitted-students, not the schools' song and dance sales pitch. I can confirm that there were plenty of bright-eyed kids at the HLS ASW who were equally ready to sell their souls because they were seduced by the aura. But ultimately, other people making a bad decision shouldn't cause you to make the same one. Don't be a lemming.

Yup, exactly. It was admitted students who were talking about how they were ready to sign. But yeah I don't want to be a lemming, just making sure I wasn't missing anything.

Also fliptrip, the dean of CLS saying the biggest weakness was actually things she viewed as strengths and room for improvement made me audibly laugh quite hard. She lost me for the rest of her speech because of that response.

Me too. I actually spent most of ASW (everywhere I was) trying to get people to identify negatives.

UVA is right choice. There is a drop in job placement power relative to C and N but likely not enough to justify the difference in cost in your case.

Just think that 1% point in biglaw chances is worth $3,300. So at a place you're guaranteed biglaw, that's worth $330k. Columbia's biglaw chances are 95% so $314k. Michigan's biglaw chances are 68%, so $224k. If you don't pay a cent for either, Columbia is worth $90k more than Michigan. As costs change, that value differential changes.

fliptrip wrote:Just think that 1% point in biglaw chances is worth $3,300. So at a place you're guaranteed biglaw, that's worth $330k. Columbia's biglaw chances are 95% so $314k. Michigan's biglaw chances are 68%, so $224k. If you don't pay a cent for either, Columbia is worth $90k more than Michigan. As costs change, that value differential changes.

I get the logic but where did the $3,300 come from?

redsxfan2010 wrote:

fliptrip wrote:Just think that 1% point in biglaw chances is worth $3,300. So at a place you're guaranteed biglaw, that's worth $330k. Columbia's biglaw chances are 95% so $314k. Michigan's biglaw chances are 68%, so $224k. If you don't pay a cent for either, Columbia is worth $90k more than Michigan. As costs change, that value differential changes.

I get the logic but where did the $3,300 come from?

Easy...two years in biglaw is worth $330k in salary excluding opportunity costs and bonuses. So, it's just $330,000/100%pts = $3,300/%pt.

UVA.

fliptrip wrote:

redsxfan2010 wrote:

fliptrip wrote:Just think that 1% point in biglaw chances is worth $3,300. So at a place you're guaranteed biglaw, that's worth $330k. Columbia's biglaw chances are 95% so $314k. Michigan's biglaw chances are 68%, so $224k. If you don't pay a cent for either, Columbia is worth $90k more than Michigan. As costs change, that value differential changes.

I get the logic but where did the $3,300 come from?

Easy...two years in biglaw is worth $330k in salary excluding opportunity costs and bonuses. So, it's just $330,000/100%pts = $3,300/%pt.

Ahhhh gotcha. Hm. I like that system. Did you think up that or did you get it from somewhere? Haven't seen it anywhere else before.

LOL. No, I did not think up the way of thinking about the decision. I did, however make a couple of assumptions about the payoffs and the odds. Personally, I like having some objective way to look at decisions that talk about value and worth.

fliptrip wrote:LOL. No, I did not think up the way of thinking about the decision. I did, however make a couple of assumptions about the payoffs and the odds. Personally, I like having some objective way to look at decisions that talk about value and worth.

Yes but OP is talking about IP so his/her chances at a market paying job may be higher than the average UVA K-JD. He would do even better with a year or two of work experience.

Edit: it sounds like OP has work experience.
OP you can do well from UVA.

Tls2016 wrote:

fliptrip wrote:LOL. No, I did not think up the way of thinking about the decision. I did, however make a couple of assumptions about the payoffs and the odds. Personally, I like having some objective way to look at decisions that talk about value and worth.

Yes but OP is talking about IP so his/her chances at a market paying job may be higher than the average UVA K-JD.

That makes it even more obvious for UVA, which is the boat I've been in all along. This is definitely not one to agonize over.

fliptrip wrote:

Tls2016 wrote:

fliptrip wrote:LOL. No, I did not think up the way of thinking about the decision. I did, however make a couple of assumptions about the payoffs and the odds. Personally, I like having some objective way to look at decisions that talk about value and worth.

Yes but OP is talking about IP so his/her chances at a market paying job may be higher than the average UVA K-JD.

That makes it even more obvious for UVA, which is the boat I've been in all along. This is definitely not one to agonize over.

Yeah hopefully the IP/patent stuff makes OCIs easier. That's at least the goal. But thanks everyone. I appreciate all of the info and people letting me know that I wasn't in fact missing anything and that UVA really is my best option.