GULC vs. Michigan dilemma Forum

[gazorpazorp]

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[lawlzi]

Try to negotiate more money from Michigan with your other offers, but I would say Michigan puts in a better position to achieve your goals. Where did you find the statistic for 87.4% vs 55.1?

[gazorpazorp]

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[fliptrip]

Before we start, I doubt you need me to tell you, but if Penn takes you off the WL and gives you any money at all, you gotta take that. Anyway, to the horses...

Your COA figures are low if you're debt financing. Here's what I got for you:

Michigan: $193k
GULC: $173k

At these prices, they are basically equivalent for their outcomes. You could take either and be justified. You should definitely try to squeeze more out of Michigan, however.

[gazorpazorp]

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[Vandy2bforrealz]

Both options are solid and justifiable. I never understood all of the GULC hate outside of the fact that it's class is massive. Negotiate hard and pick the one you feel helps you best achieve your personal goals.

[fliptrip]

No problem. I use the Georgetown calculator...

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissio ... geid=61621

[cron1834]

Before we start, I doubt you need me to tell you, but if Penn takes you off the WL and gives you any money at all, you gotta take that. Anyway, to the horses...

Your COA figures are low if you're debt financing. Here's what I got for you:

Michigan: $193k
GULC: $173k

At these prices, they are basically equivalent for their outcomes. You could take either and be justified. You should definitely try to squeeze more out of Michigan, however.

Thanks for the response. I definitely plan on attending Penn if I get in off the WL -- esp. because I would be living at home in that scenario and saving a bundle on COL.

Do you mind sharing what site/calculator you used to get those COA amounts? I'm assuming the difference in our estimates is due to me neglecting to factor in interest.

If these numbers are accurate, then neither Mich nor Gulc. Too much money... especially for someone who has "dreams of clerking."

[krads153]

Before we start, I doubt you need me to tell you, but if Penn takes you off the WL and gives you any money at all, you gotta take that. Anyway, to the horses...

Your COA figures are low if you're debt financing. Here's what I got for you:

Michigan: $193k
GULC: $173k

At these prices, they are basically equivalent for their outcomes. You could take either and be justified. You should definitely try to squeeze more out of Michigan, however.

Thanks for the response. I definitely plan on attending Penn if I get in off the WL -- esp. because I would be living at home in that scenario and saving a bundle on COL.

Do you mind sharing what site/calculator you used to get those COA amounts? I'm assuming the difference in our estimates is due to me neglecting to factor in interest.

If these numbers are accurate, then neither Mich nor Gulc. Too much money... especially for someone who has "dreams of clerking."

Agree. Not sure what to tell you since you've taken the LSAT 3 times already...

[Hand]

what kind of person "dreams of clerking"?!? surely the point of going to law school is not to get some 1-year job the main purpose of which is to set you up for a different job

[gazorpazorp]

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[existentialcrisis]

Do you guys think that going to GULC would give me an advantage in the Philly biglaw market - or even the DC market - over Mich?

Also, GULC likes to tout the fact that its location allows for lots of externship and extracurricular opportunities during the school year. To what extent is this a significant advantage?

No. GULC might have some small placement advantage in DC, but I doubt it. The DC market is extremely competitive and grade selective from any school. GULC will definitely not give you an advantage in Philadelphia. I do think with your strong ties you should be able to get back to Philadelphia from Michigan. I doubt there are a ton of Philly firms coming to either OCI, but if you mass mail Philly firm's your 2L summer I think you'd probably be in good shape.

[cron1834]

Obviously GULC is good for DC... the problem is that your 600 classmates are trying to do the same thing. And if you're below median, you're in huge trouble there. Mich has shrunk class size, which is better for the biglaw comparison here.

I wouldn't worry about in-semester externing/interning unless you know specifically what kind of job you want. To the extent that you have vague ambitions of clerking/biglaw, I don't think this should be a consideration.

Can't speak to the Philly market. I can't imagine there's a pipeline at either place. Just mass mail like existential said.

Mich is the better school, but the larger issue here is COA.

[gazorpazorp]

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[EzraFitz]

Do you guys think that going to GULC would give me an advantage in the Philly biglaw market - or even the DC market - over Mich?

Also, GULC likes to tout the fact that its location allows for lots of externship and extracurricular opportunities during the school year. To what extent is this a significant advantage?

No. GULC might have some small placement advantage in DC, but I doubt it. The DC market is extremely competitive and grade selective from any school. GULC will definitely not give you an advantage in Philadelphia. I do think with your strong ties you should be able to get back to Philadelphia from Michigan. I doubt there are a ton of Philly firms coming to either OCI, but if you mass mail Philly firm's your 2L summer I think you'd probably be in good shape.

GULC 100% has good push in Philly. Obviously not the same as Penn, but a lot of people go to both the Philly and DE markets from GULC, and I can't think of anyone I know who wanted one of the two and didn't get it from GULC. Yes it's anecdata, but there is definitely some push there. Ties will help more than anything, but I don't think the difference is so negligible. GULC also has a good number of Philly and DE firms at EIW (with some amount being in the February OCI).

[existentialcrisis]

Do you guys think that going to GULC would give me an advantage in the Philly biglaw market - or even the DC market - over Mich?

Also, GULC likes to tout the fact that its location allows for lots of externship and extracurricular opportunities during the school year. To what extent is this a significant advantage?

No. GULC might have some small placement advantage in DC, but I doubt it. The DC market is extremely competitive and grade selective from any school. GULC will definitely not give you an advantage in Philadelphia. I do think with your strong ties you should be able to get back to Philadelphia from Michigan. I doubt there are a ton of Philly firms coming to either OCI, but if you mass mail Philly firm's your 2L summer I think you'd probably be in good shape.

GULC 100% has good push in Philly. Obviously not the same as Penn, but a lot of people go to both the Philly and DE markets from GULC, and I can't think of anyone I know who wanted one of the two and didn't get it from GULC. Yes it's anecdata, but there is definitely some push there. Ties will help more than anything, but I don't think the difference is so negligible. GULC also has a good number of Philly and DE firms at EIW (with some amount being in the February OCI).

Maybe I exaggerated. If Philly firms come to GULC it might make it a little easier to land. But generally my point was that secondary markets love T14 students with ties, and that OP would likely be able to get back to Philly from either school.

[EzraFitz]

Do you guys think that going to GULC would give me an advantage in the Philly biglaw market - or even the DC market - over Mich?

Also, GULC likes to tout the fact that its location allows for lots of externship and extracurricular opportunities during the school year. To what extent is this a significant advantage?

No. GULC might have some small placement advantage in DC, but I doubt it. The DC market is extremely competitive and grade selective from any school. GULC will definitely not give you an advantage in Philadelphia. I do think with your strong ties you should be able to get back to Philadelphia from Michigan. I doubt there are a ton of Philly firms coming to either OCI, but if you mass mail Philly firm's your 2L summer I think you'd probably be in good shape.

GULC 100% has good push in Philly. Obviously not the same as Penn, but a lot of people go to both the Philly and DE markets from GULC, and I can't think of anyone I know who wanted one of the two and didn't get it from GULC. Yes it's anecdata, but there is definitely some push there. Ties will help more than anything, but I don't think the difference is so negligible. GULC also has a good number of Philly and DE firms at EIW (with some amount being in the February OCI).

Maybe I exaggerated. If Philly firms come to GULC it might make it a little easier to land. But generally my point was that secondary markets love T14 students with ties, and that OP would likely be able to get back to Philly from either school.

That is a good point and definitely true.

[bruinfan10]

michigan has its problems, but it's better than GULC for the goals you describe. But the COA is too to justify either. I wouldn't go to law school at those prices.

[gazorpazorp]

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[cron1834]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

So the consensus seems to be that GULC has at least a slight edge in terms of obtaining Philly Biglaw. Would this also hold true for DC (biglaw, gov or PI)? All else being equal, would simply being in DC give a GULC student an edge over a Mich student?

One thing that I find peculiar about the employment stats is the fact that, despite Mich having a full 10% edge in terms of overall employment, and the aforementioned 87% v. 55% spread for pre-graduation offers, GULC seems to do just as well at sending grads to biglaw (44% vs 43%). Could this have anything to do with self-selection from Mich students (deciding to clerk, do PI, academia, etc?)

The vast majority of people who clerk end up working in biglaw following, or could have had they pursued it. That's why most people just lump biglaw and fed clerk together into a sum total.

Also, I don't think it's clear that GULC has an edge in Philly. It's more convenient and has more people self-selecting there, but apples-to-apples class percentile rank probably does not favor GULC anywhere except DC (definite proximity advantage).

The issue here is cost.

[existentialcrisis]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

So the consensus seems to be that GULC has at least a slight edge in terms of obtaining Philly Biglaw. Would this also hold true for DC (biglaw, gov or PI)? All else being equal, would simply being in DC give a GULC student an edge over a Mich student?

One thing that I find peculiar about the employment stats is the fact that, despite Mich having a full 10% edge in terms of overall employment, and the aforementioned 87% v. 55% spread for pre-graduation offers, GULC seems to do just as well at sending grads to biglaw (44% vs 43%). Could this have anything to do with self-selection from Mich students (deciding to clerk, do PI, academia, etc?)

The vast majority of people who clerk end up working in biglaw following, or could have had they pursued it. That's why most people just lump biglaw and fed clerk together into a sum total.

Also, I don't think it's clear that GULC has an edge in Philly. It's more convenient and has more people self-selecting there, but apples-to-apples class percentile rank probably does not favor GULC anywhere except DC (definite proximity advantage).

The issue here is cost.

Yea, this is not what I was trying to say. It may be "easier" to land Philly biglaw from GULC, in the sense that it will take less leg work because more firms come to their OCI. (I have no idea if any Philly firms going to Michigan's OCI, I'm assuming not) But, I very seriously doubt that Philly firm's prefer GULC grads to Michigan grads, or would have a lower grade cut-off or or anything. A Philly native who goes to Mich and mass mails will get Philly interviews and I think should have an excellent chance of landing a job there. Either way, my guess would be that should you do reasonably well at GULC or Mich, you'd have an excellent chance of getting home to Philly.

Michigan's BL + FC is 54%, while GULC's is 48%.

GULC might have a slight edge when it comes to landing DC big law, but really the key to DC firms is getting really good grades.

I don't know much about Government/PI hiring, but my hunch is that for DC government or PI work, GULC would probably give you an advantage simply because you'd be in DC and have tons of access to internships/externships and more opportunity to network.

[gazorpazorp]

.

[existentialcrisis]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

So the consensus seems to be that GULC has at least a slight edge in terms of obtaining Philly Biglaw. Would this also hold true for DC (biglaw, gov or PI)? All else being equal, would simply being in DC give a GULC student an edge over a Mich student?

One thing that I find peculiar about the employment stats is the fact that, despite Mich having a full 10% edge in terms of overall employment, and the aforementioned 87% v. 55% spread for pre-graduation offers, GULC seems to do just as well at sending grads to biglaw (44% vs 43%). Could this have anything to do with self-selection from Mich students (deciding to clerk, do PI, academia, etc?)

The vast majority of people who clerk end up working in biglaw following, or could have had they pursued it. That's why most people just lump biglaw and fed clerk together into a sum total.

Also, I don't think it's clear that GULC has an edge in Philly. It's more convenient and has more people self-selecting there, but apples-to-apples class percentile rank probably does not favor GULC anywhere except DC (definite proximity advantage).

The issue here is cost.

Thanks for this perspective.

Re: cost, that's not something I am overlooking, and I'll definitely continue to negotiate. It seems that law school apps + high lsat scores are on the rise, which is why I'm not really considering sitting out, retaking (when eligible) and reapplying. I'm not sure how much I could improve my LSAT at this point after taking it 3 times, and I'm not keen on taking another year+ off from school when the notion of a significant improvement is somewhat dubious.

Plan A was initially Cornell/Northwestern with $$$ (the Internet led me to believe that this was inevitable with my #'s), but obviously that didn't come to fruition.

GULC with a full scholarship would still cost around 27k/yr just for COL. I've come to terms with the fact that I'll be looking at a six figure debt-at-repayment.

Random thought: how crazy would it be to consider Temple for free (no COL payments either) if I want philly biglaw? Their overall biglaw #'s are pretty scary but it seems Temple is well represented at every single philly firm.

I don't think it's a good idea to go to a school unless you're comfortable with the most likely outcome it provides. At Temple, that seems like its working for a small firm in Pennsylvania. Sure it wouldn't cost you very much in tuition, but the odds of getting your desired outcome are very low. If you don't get Philly big law, which you likely wouldn't, 3 years is a hell of a lot of opportunity cost.

I suppose you could go to Temple, gun super hard, and then drop out after 1L if you don't land a SA at OCI.

[WaitersIsland]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

So the consensus seems to be that GULC has at least a slight edge in terms of obtaining Philly Biglaw. Would this also hold true for DC (biglaw, gov or PI)? All else being equal, would simply being in DC give a GULC student an edge over a Mich student?

One thing that I find peculiar about the employment stats is the fact that, despite Mich having a full 10% edge in terms of overall employment, and the aforementioned 87% v. 55% spread for pre-graduation offers, GULC seems to do just as well at sending grads to biglaw (44% vs 43%). Could this have anything to do with self-selection from Mich students (deciding to clerk, do PI, academia, etc?)

The vast majority of people who clerk end up working in biglaw following, or could have had they pursued it. That's why most people just lump biglaw and fed clerk together into a sum total.

Also, I don't think it's clear that GULC has an edge in Philly. It's more convenient and has more people self-selecting there, but apples-to-apples class percentile rank probably does not favor GULC anywhere except DC (definite proximity advantage).

The issue here is cost.

Yea, this is not what I was trying to say. It may be "easier" to land Philly biglaw from GULC, in the sense that it will take less leg work because more firms come to their OCI. (I have no idea if any Philly firms going to Michigan's OCI, I'm assuming not) But, I very seriously doubt that Philly firm's prefer GULC grads to Michigan grads, or would have a lower grade cut-off or or anything. A Philly native who goes to Mich and mass mails will get Philly interviews and I think should have an excellent chance of landing a job there. Either way, my guess would be that should you do reasonably well at GULC or Mich, you'd have an excellent chance of getting home to Philly.

Michigan's BL + FC is 54%, while GULC's is 48%.

GULC might have a slight edge when it comes to landing DC big law, but really the key to DC firms is getting really good grades.

I don't know much about Government/PI hiring, but my hunch is that for DC government or PI work, GULC would probably give you an advantage simply because you'd be in DC and have tons of access to internships/externships and more opportunity to network.

Philly firms do indeed attend Michigan's OCI. Last year, the following firms attended:

Drinker Biddle & Reath
Langsam Stevens Silver & Hollaender
Morgan Lewis & Bockius
Pepper Hamilton
Rubin Fortunato & Harbison

Now, I have no idea if those are the biggest, most elite firms in Philadelphia. But there will likely be at least a handful of Philly firms at Michigan's OCI for the OP.