CCN vs. Michigan Forum

[ChinaCat]

How much extra would you be willing to pay for one of CCN over Michigan if you wanted NYC biglaw?

[GreenEggs]

There are so many of these threads and it's a pointless question unless you're saying all else being equal. In which case take the big law+clerkship numbers for each and subtract the difference and ask yourself how much your willing to pay for that extra %. Do you place a number value on spending three years of your life in Ann Arbor vs NYC or Chicago? add that too, do you have a partner you're trying to live with, figure that out as well.

[krads153]

Also its hard to evaluate without numbers because of how interest accrues.....the more debt you take out, the more interest you'll have, which will be compounded. So the number doesn't stay the same for me and largely depends on where in the scale you fall (0 v 50k debt or 100k v 150k debt), etc.

[ChinaCat]

Also its hard to evaluate without numbers because of how interest accrues.....the more debt you take out, the more interest you'll have, which will be compounded. So the number doesn't stay the same for me and largely depends on where in the scale you fall (0 v 50k debt or 100k v 150k debt), etc.

So say it's something like $120k debt vs $180k debt.

[ChinaCat]

Also, let's say you place no significant value on location. You're only considering the difference in employment prospects.

[Good Guy Gaud]

Also its hard to evaluate without numbers because of how interest accrues.....the more debt you take out, the more interest you'll have, which will be compounded. So the number doesn't stay the same for me and largely depends on where in the scale you fall (0 v 50k debt or 100k v 150k debt), etc.

So say it's something like $120k debt vs $180k debt.

For $60k I would take the cheaper option

[krads153]

180k debt is at the point where I'm not sure it's even a good idea financially to go to law school......there are tons of other careers out there you can pursue. I say that as someone who took out around the same amount and paid it off in biglaw and wouldn't make the same choices again. You just have no idea what biglaw is like. So between those, I'd take the cheaper option, but I would also question why you even want to go to law school in the first place. If you have no idea why you're going to law school beyond "wanting biglaw", then you shouldn't go to law school with large debt and maybe not even at all.

[ChinaCat]

180k debt is at the point where I'm not sure it's even a good idea financially to go to law school......there are tons of other careers out there you can pursue. I say that as someone who took out around the same amount and paid it off in biglaw and wouldn't make the same choices again. You just have no idea what biglaw is like. So between those, I'd take the cheaper option, but I would also question why you even want to go to law school in the first place. If you have no idea why you're going to law school beyond "wanting biglaw", then you shouldn't go to law school with large debt and maybe not even at all.

Hm. Well, I'm confident that I have good reasons for going. Also, these numbers could be reduced by 20-25,000 with a 2L SA job.

[Good Guy Gaud]

180k debt is at the point where I'm not sure it's even a good idea financially to go to law school......there are tons of other careers out there you can pursue. I say that as someone who took out around the same amount and paid it off in biglaw and wouldn't make the same choices again. You just have no idea what biglaw is like. So between those, I'd take the cheaper option, but I would also question why you even want to go to law school in the first place. If you have no idea why you're going to law school beyond "wanting biglaw", then you shouldn't go to law school with large debt and maybe not even at all.

Hm. Well, I'm confident that I have good reasons for going. Also, these numbers could be reduced by 20-25,000 with a 2L SA job.

Could be reduced. $180k is a lot of money. And with interest it becomes even more.
If you can get the same degree with relatively similar prospects for $60k cheaper I don't see why you wouldn't.

[krads153]

180k debt is at the point where I'm not sure it's even a good idea financially to go to law school......there are tons of other careers out there you can pursue. I say that as someone who took out around the same amount and paid it off in biglaw and wouldn't make the same choices again. You just have no idea what biglaw is like. So between those, I'd take the cheaper option, but I would also question why you even want to go to law school in the first place. If you have no idea why you're going to law school beyond "wanting biglaw", then you shouldn't go to law school with large debt and maybe not even at all.

Hm. Well, I'm confident that I have good reasons for going. Also, these numbers could be reduced by 20-25,000 with a 2L SA job.

Yeah, but how would you pay for living in the summers during your SA, etc? I don't think COA for most schools looks at 12 month period. Also you probably won't get most of it back until after you've taken out loans for 3L year, since you're taxed at 160k rate and you have to get most of it refunded from the IRS after you file your taxes. And for the unsubsidized loans, interest accrues during law school anyway.

[ChinaCat]

180k debt is at the point where I'm not sure it's even a good idea financially to go to law school......there are tons of other careers out there you can pursue. I say that as someone who took out around the same amount and paid it off in biglaw and wouldn't make the same choices again. You just have no idea what biglaw is like. So between those, I'd take the cheaper option, but I would also question why you even want to go to law school in the first place. If you have no idea why you're going to law school beyond "wanting biglaw", then you shouldn't go to law school with large debt and maybe not even at all.

Hm. Well, I'm confident that I have good reasons for going. Also, these numbers could be reduced by 20-25,000 with a 2L SA job.

Could be reduced. $180k is a lot of money. And with interest it becomes even more.
If you can get the same degree with relatively similar prospects for $60k cheaper I don't see why you wouldn't.

And what if CCN increased their offer and the difference was reduced to $45k or $30k? Still not worth the extra money in your opinion?

[ChinaCat]

180k debt is at the point where I'm not sure it's even a good idea financially to go to law school......there are tons of other careers out there you can pursue. I say that as someone who took out around the same amount and paid it off in biglaw and wouldn't make the same choices again. You just have no idea what biglaw is like. So between those, I'd take the cheaper option, but I would also question why you even want to go to law school in the first place. If you have no idea why you're going to law school beyond "wanting biglaw", then you shouldn't go to law school with large debt and maybe not even at all.

Hm. Well, I'm confident that I have good reasons for going. Also, these numbers could be reduced by 20-25,000 with a 2L SA job.

Yeah, but how would you pay for living in the summers during your SA, etc? I don't think COA for most schools looks at 12 month period. Also you probably won't get most of it back until after you've taken out loans for 3L year, since you're taxed at 160k rate and you have to get most of it refunded from the IRS after you file your taxes. And for the unsubsidized loans, interest accrues during law school anyway.

I'm aware of the way schools calculate their cost of living and took that into account when calculating debt.

[Good Guy Gaud]

180k debt is at the point where I'm not sure it's even a good idea financially to go to law school......there are tons of other careers out there you can pursue. I say that as someone who took out around the same amount and paid it off in biglaw and wouldn't make the same choices again. You just have no idea what biglaw is like. So between those, I'd take the cheaper option, but I would also question why you even want to go to law school in the first place. If you have no idea why you're going to law school beyond "wanting biglaw", then you shouldn't go to law school with large debt and maybe not even at all.

Hm. Well, I'm confident that I have good reasons for going. Also, these numbers could be reduced by 20-25,000 with a 2L SA job.

Could be reduced. $180k is a lot of money. And with interest it becomes even more.
If you can get the same degree with relatively similar prospects for $60k cheaper I don't see why you wouldn't.

And what if CCN increased their offer and the difference was reduced to $45k or $30k? Still not worth the extra money in your opinion?

It becomes a closer call no doubt. I'd still lean towards the cheaper option. Like krads153 indicated, though, it's different being on the other side of the fence. I'm working/paying off my loans now so my perspective admittedly focuses more on the financial aspects of your decision.

If forced to answer your question from OP, I would probably say $30k. Anything more and I would just network/gun at Michigan. In any event, those COA numbers are no joke; I believe everyone just wants to make sure you realize how much of a pain in the ass it will be to pay them off.

[fliptrip]

In a complete vacuum, I'd say Columbia is worth about $90k more than Michigan. Whether or not it's worth that much to you is a much different question.

[krads153]

180k debt is at the point where I'm not sure it's even a good idea financially to go to law school......there are tons of other careers out there you can pursue. I say that as someone who took out around the same amount and paid it off in biglaw and wouldn't make the same choices again. You just have no idea what biglaw is like. So between those, I'd take the cheaper option, but I would also question why you even want to go to law school in the first place. If you have no idea why you're going to law school beyond "wanting biglaw", then you shouldn't go to law school with large debt and maybe not even at all.

Hm. Well, I'm confident that I have good reasons for going. Also, these numbers could be reduced by 20-25,000 with a 2L SA job.

Could be reduced. $180k is a lot of money. And with interest it becomes even more.
If you can get the same degree with relatively similar prospects for $60k cheaper I don't see why you wouldn't.

And what if CCN increased their offer and the difference was reduced to $45k or $30k? Still not worth the extra money in your opinion?

It becomes a closer call no doubt. I'd still lean towards the cheaper option. Like krads153 indicated, though, it's different being on the other side of the fence. I'm working/paying off my loans now so my perspective admittedly focuses more on the financial aspects of your decision.

If forced to answer your question from OP, I would probably say $30k. Anything more and I would just network/gun at Michigan. In any event, those COA numbers are no joke; I believe everyone just wants to make sure you realize how much of a pain in the ass it will be to pay them off.

Yep. Agreed. I'm sure my perspective was different as a 0L when I didn't know shit about finances or paying off loans...but IMO biglaw pays nothing in comparison to how fast your interest accrues on big loans. And you will be miserable for most of it. Your minimum payments per month will be like 2k to 3k a month with 180k debt and if you want to pay it off relatively quickly (within 5 years) you will have to pay wayyy more each month than that. You will be living like you have a 50-60k a year job....except working twice the hours.

Anyway, this is why everyone should work before they go to law school - so they understand the value of money. Taking out loans is easy; paying them off is hard and will make you wonder about the choices you made in life.

[fliptrip]

Taking out loans is easy; paying them off is hard and will make you wonder about the choices you made in life.

This is so true. It literally takes about 10 minutes on a computer to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's amazing.

[krads153]

Taking out loans is easy; paying them off is hard and will make you wonder about the choices you made in life.

This is so true. It literally takes about 10 minutes on a computer to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's amazing.

It's a goddamn joke - the government is ruining tons of kids' lives....and also jacking up tuition to obscene levels.

Anyway, that's another story, but it should be illegal for 21 year olds fresh out of college to take out 200k loans for a degree....like they should all be forced to work full time for a couple of years, in any job, even McDonald's, before even being able to do this.

[Tls2016]

Taking out loans is easy; paying them off is hard and will make you wonder about the choices you made in life.

This is so true. It literally takes about 10 minutes on a computer to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's amazing.

It's a goddamn joke - the government is ruining tons of kids' lives....and also jacking up tuition to obscene levels.

Anyway, that's another story, but it should be illegal for 21 year olds fresh out of college to take out 200k loans for a degree....like they should all be forced to work full time for a couple of years, in any job, even McDonald's, before even being able to do this.

It's just a massive wealth transfer from the government to schools with students as the middle man

[cron1834]

Also its hard to evaluate without numbers because of how interest accrues.....the more debt you take out, the more interest you'll have, which will be compounded. So the number doesn't stay the same for me and largely depends on where in the scale you fall (0 v 50k debt or 100k v 150k debt), etc.

So say it's something like $120k debt vs $180k debt.

For $60k I would take the cheaper option

I agree with this. It's hard to assess without knowing more about you... but I think I'd rather save the $60k. If you're willing to mass mail before and after OCI to play it safe and just want any random biglaw firm, Michigan can get you there. If you get totally crushed in grades or are a total weirdo, all bets are off doe.

I'd probably do CCN for about $45k more, but anything higher and I'd take lower T14 savings (except GULC). I was confident in my abilities as an interviewee, though... if you're bad at interviews, then maybe this number changes.

Again: difficult to assess in the abstract.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I find Columbia to be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $65k-$70k more than UM. You shouldn't do sticker at either, so my answer is predicated on the idea that I could live with a small or medium discount at Columbia, but I'd need a large one to go to Michigan.

[jbagelboy]

Also its hard to evaluate without numbers because of how interest accrues.....the more debt you take out, the more interest you'll have, which will be compounded. So the number doesn't stay the same for me and largely depends on where in the scale you fall (0 v 50k debt or 100k v 150k debt), etc.

So say it's something like $120k debt vs $180k debt.

For $60k I would take the cheaper option

I disagree - at $60k I'd take CCN over Michigan. There's a pretty substantial difference in employment outcomes between those schools: ~20% firm+clerkship placement.

[cron1834]

Also its hard to evaluate without numbers because of how interest accrues.....the more debt you take out, the more interest you'll have, which will be compounded. So the number doesn't stay the same for me and largely depends on where in the scale you fall (0 v 50k debt or 100k v 150k debt), etc.

So say it's something like $120k debt vs $180k debt.

For $60k I would take the cheaper option

I disagree - at $60k I'd take CCN over Michigan. There's a pretty substantial difference in employment outcomes between those schools: ~20% firm+clerkship placement.

Actually, I'd probably agree with you if the choice were between $0 debt & $60k, and one is obsessed with biglaw. But once you near $200k, you're entering the realm of, "no school is worth it," imo.