Duke $ vs. WUSTL $$$$ Forum

[TLSDookie]

Hey guys, trying to make a decision in advance of WUSTL's April 1st deadline for accepting scholly offers.

3.0x/173 (maxed out my LSAT performance after taking it twice.) Through a 45K/year scholarship and family assistance, can attend WUSTL with 0 debt including COL. In at Duke at sticker, which combined with family assistance comes out to ~$100K debt-load at graduation, or a $1250 monthly payment on a 10 year repayment plan by my calculation. Can't re-take my undergrad GPA. Not very debt-averse since my family is in a strong enough financial position to loan me money and keep me from defaulting even over a protracted period of months, but not enough to pay my way through school.

Is the Duke pedigree worth a $100K debt over WUSTL? My goals are to practice patent/IP law in NYC/DC--eligible for the patent bar (thanks to pre-med for wrecking my undergrad GPA, and making me eligible for an even worse version of the bar.) Can any practicing attorneys shed light on if avoiding paying out a sizable portion of my monthly income for 10 years would be a choice I'd regret for 40 years? I've already looked into the brochure/surface level info available about the IP/Patent programs at both schools and all the hard employment numbers available from both schools.

I've asked Duke to re-negotiate zero aid in light of the substantial WUSTL scholarship but haven't heard back.

[ticklemesilly]

Duke is very good for East Coast (NY/DC). But not worth sticker, IMO. Did you get into any other T14 schools with any aid?

[TLSDookie]

Duke is very good for East Coast (NY/DC). But not worth sticker, IMO. Did you get into any other T14 schools with any aid?

Thanks for the reply--I agree if I had to debt finance the full ~240K Duke sticker price it would be a no-brainer to attend WUSTL with no debt. But I think the monthly payments at 100K of debt are more manageable.

Also just to clarify the family assistance is coming from an account that has been for tax purposes education funding in my name for decades, leftover from college thanks to scholarships, so I'm not concerned about burdening my family extra by accepting Duke.

As far as acceptances, I've had a rough (albeit somewhat expected) cycle--I have a stack of waitlists but Duke is the only T-14 school I was admitted to outright, and WUSTL is the only school I applied to outside the Top 14.

[jp1447]

You don't want to go to WUSTL unless you have to, IMO. We should probably know more about your goals. For now, I'll assume its a biglaw position with a shot at clerking (like most).

Disclaimer: I went to Duke and loved it. Your question is essentially is a Duke degree worth 100k debt load? I think the answer is a resounding yes, but like the other posters, I think you should press hard on them to come up. Even if you can get them to throw you a bone at 15k/year, that monthly payment shrinks markedly. I did this in the final hours with NYU when I went to law school and they bucked up. I think I even said something like "unless you can provide me 20k/year in scholarship funding, I unfortunately cannot attend." They caved, and then I got the other schools to increase their offers and sold out to Duke at the highest price. Be ruthless.

Again, I think you need to take WUSTL out of the equation because they don't get the same biglaw numbers. It's just not worth it relative to your alternative choice. In other words, you could reasonably find yourself worse off in 5-10 years if you go to WUSTL, and believe me this happens even with kids that get big money to go there. I think this risk is simply not worth it ESPECIALLY if your family has you covered and there is no real risk of defaulting.

If I were you I'd press hard on a school like Cornell or Georgetown and try to get a larger financial offer. Use that to beg Duke to match. Be ruthless with these people. 170+'s are money worthy at a T14, even with a lower GPA. If your goal is to come down from 100k with them giving you 0, you can do it. Write a nice email after you have some Cornell/G-town money and beg them to match or even offer slightly less. If they say no, double or even triple deposit and ask for 10/year in the final hour. Then you're at 8-900/month repayment which is totally feasible.

Also, and more importantly, Congrats on the success! Most kids on here are gonna dump on you, but a T14 at around 100K in financed debt is not a bad spot -- particularly at Duke. Do your family a favor and play the game hard and bring down that 100k figure if you can!

[existentialcrisis]

I'm not very knowledgeable about IP prospects coming out of WUSTL, but I think graduating from Duke 100k in debt is a solid outcome. If you don't get offered any money in the t14 I'd go with Duke.

I'm not sure about your IP prospects with just an undergrad degree in bio or neuroscience though? I was under the impression that firms preferred engineering, or a masters/Phd, but I'm by no means an expert on this.

[TLSDookie]

I think you need to take WUSTL out of the equation because they don't get the same biglaw numbers. It's just not worth it relative to your alternative choice. In other words, you could reasonably find yourself worse off in 5-10 years if you go to WUSTL, and believe me this happens even with kids that get big money to go there. I think this risk is simply not worth it ESPECIALLY if your family has you covered and there is no real risk of defaulting.

If I were you I'd press hard on a school like Cornell or Georgetown and try to get a larger financial offer. Use that to beg Duke to match. Be ruthless with these people. 170+'s are money worthy at a T14, even with a lower GPA. If your goal is to come down from 100k with them giving you 0, you can do it. Write a nice email after you have some Cornell/G-town money and beg them to match or even offer slightly less. If they say no, double or even triple deposit and ask for 10/year in the final hour. Then you're at 8-900/month repayment which is totally feasible.

Appreciate the thoughtful response! I think this reflects the direction I'm leaning in, but it is certainly great to hear it from practicing attorneys who understand the legal market, as opposed to just gathering info/stats online.

Ideally, yes, my goal would be an A-3 clerkship and on to big/boutique law. But I've browsed TLS long enough to know better than to suggest I'm planning to finish better than median in my class. I'm fine with big law or working with start-ups providing legal consulting in a mid law firm as well.

Re: negotiations, I'm waitlisted at Gtown (not even priority waitlisted), as well as UVA/Mich/Penn. Making this even more frustrating (and in response to the poster below you) I did get a 3.8 in an MA program in a regulatory science/technology policy program, which I was really hoping would help alleviate my undergrad GPA and lead to more T-14 money, as well as make me an interesting candidate for IP law if I did sit for the patent bar. So unfortunately, the only offer I have to leverage right now is WUSTL's. But yeah, if Duke doesn't respond to that (and I don't see why they would), I'm fine with their current offer, provided TLS agrees it's a rational and manageable amount of debt to carry in the legal world.

[Vandy2bforrealz]

Duke is an easy winner here in you particular situation

[RareExports]

Get your WUSTL scholarship to full (this should not be difficult, but may require patience). Then it becomes a close decision. I chose WUSTL at full over Duke with a little less than half-tuition scholarship there. That's not the right choice for everyone, but it's also not an intuitively wrong choice. If your choice becomes (and I think it will) WUSTL at full scholarship or Duke at no scholarship (but family assistance), I think WUSTL is the way to go. This is particularly true because you are patent bar eligible. This will improve your employment prospects from all schools, but I think the impact will be greatest at a school like WUSTL which has more borderline employment prospects to start.

Does the April 1 deadline at WUSTL this year require you to have accepted your scholarship by that date? If not, I would just deposit at WUSTL anyway, and plan on depositing at Duke too. If you're willing to take some risk, you could even wait to deposit at WUSTL until after April 1. Last year they allowed people to deposit after the deadline, and even rewarded many of them with unsolicited scholarship increases. For obvious reasons, that decision would be risky.

[ticklemesilly]

Get your WUSTL scholarship to full (this should not be difficult, but may require patience). Then it becomes a close decision. I chose WUSTL at full over Duke with a little less than half-tuition scholarship there. That's not the right choice for everyone, but it's also not an intuitively wrong choice. If your choice becomes (and I think it will) WUSTL at full scholarship or Duke at no scholarship (but family assistance), I think WUSTL is the way to go.

I had the same choice as the poster above, and I chose Duke (and have no regrets). That tells you nothing except that reasonable minds can differ. If you are not in a financially precarious decision or very debt averse, I say maximize your choices at the best possible school. I happen to think Duke is a darn good school But that's just my personal opinion, and like I mentioned before, reasonable minds can differ.

[GreenEggs]

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