Top Law Schools

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brendo17 wrote:Would love to get your thoughts on how much more you think UChi is worth over Northwestern.

If your immediate goal is biglaw, I doubt 125k is the answer.

eta: but generally (as a 0L), I'd probably be fine with 180k debt from UChi (in a vacuum)

This looks like Northwestern for sure. I'd peg Chicago's outcomes as being worth $50k more than Northwestern, but you're paying $125k more. Any chance you can get Chicago cheaper? If you could halve the difference, it gets closer to being okay, but at that point it would be more about personal preference than anything objective.

I am not sure whether or not your COA calculations have taken into account the fact that your wife will be largely taking care of it. If so, then perhaps they are correct. If not, you are really low-balling the actual costs of these schools. For instance, NW calculated this year that the full COA of only 1 year was $82,296. Keep in mind that this only accounts for 9 months of living expenses are opposed to the 12 months that we all live during the year (which I think is horseshit). This means that the COA of NW with interest and fees is looking more like 300k than the ostensible 200k that you have calculated here. I would anticipate that you should expect to shell out close to 150k even with the 150k scholarship that NW has thrown your way. I currently live less than a mile from NW and can tell you from personal experience that living anywhere close to the school is going to be very expensive and living far away from the school (as most students do) is going to be a pain in the ass. Obviously you'll have to weigh the variables in your own calculus, but it goes without saying that your final COA total hangs in the balance. I would anticipate that a decent 1br/1ba anywhere near the school is going to run you approximately 1500 a month.

Attending the U of C also comes at a much higher cost than you've indicated here. The total COA there was estimated this year to be around $84,000, which again with interest and fees and considering that you will be living 12 months a year rather than only 9, I would estimate that the total COA is going to be around 300k as a safe estimate. I attended the U of C for Undergrad and can tell you, however, that you will be able to live much cheaper in Hyde Park while still being walking distance from campus. The area is not nearly as fun and lively, but if keeping costs down is your aim, then Hyde Park is a much better bet.

That being said, the following are more realistic figures:

NW at 300kish - 150k scholly = 150k at repayment
U of C at 300kish - 45k scholly = 255k at repayment

If biglaw is your goal, it is impossible in my view to justify spending over 100k more to attend the University of Chicago (although I have great love for it as my alma matter). Northwestern seems to be the clear choice hear. Hope this helps and good luck! These are some great outcomes!

I'd also see if you can get Michigan to move up; Michigan at $105 or something might be your best bet all around.

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Former UoC grad here. Unless you have some specific desire to clerk or work at a boutique (you shouldn't), NU by a mile.

I'd probably pay 10k/year max more for UoC.

GFox345 wrote:I am not sure whether or not your COA calculations have taken into account the fact that your wife will be largely taking care of it. If so, then perhaps they are correct. If not, you are really low-balling the actual costs of these schools. For instance, NW calculated this year that the full COA of only 1 year was $82,296. Keep in mind that this only accounts for 9 months of living expenses are opposed to the 12 months that we all live during the year (which I think is horseshit). This means that the COA of NW with interest and fees is looking more like 300k than the ostensible 200k that you have calculated here. I would anticipate that you should expect to shell out close to 150k even with the 150k scholarship that NW has thrown your way. I currently live less than a mile from NW and can tell you from personal experience that living anywhere close to the school is going to be very expensive and living far away from the school (as most students do) is going to be a pain in the ass. Obviously you'll have to weigh the variables in your own calculus, but it goes without saying that your final COA total hangs in the balance. I would anticipate that a decent 1br/1ba anywhere near the school is going to run you approximately 1500 a month.

Attending the U of C also comes at a much higher cost than you've indicated here. The total COA there was estimated this year to be around $84,000, which again with interest and fees and considering that you will be living 12 months a year rather than only 9, I would estimate that the total COA is going to be around 300k as a safe estimate. I attended the U of C for Undergrad and can tell you, however, that you will be able to live much cheaper in Hyde Park while still being walking distance from campus. The area is not nearly as fun and lively, but if keeping costs down is your aim, then Hyde Park is a much better bet.

That being said, the following are more realistic figures:

NW at 300kish - 150k scholly = 150k at repayment
U of C at 300kish - 45k scholly = 255k at repayment

If biglaw is your goal, it is impossible in my view to justify spending over 100k more to attend the University of Chicago (although I have great love for it as my alma matter). Northwestern seems to be the clear choice hear. Hope this helps and good luck! These are some great outcomes!

I'm not sure that $150k is entirely accurate though either...that seems really, really high

NU

herecomesthesun wrote:

GFox345 wrote:I am not sure whether or not your COA calculations have taken into account the fact that your wife will be largely taking care of it. If so, then perhaps they are correct. If not, you are really low-balling the actual costs of these schools. For instance, NW calculated this year that the full COA of only 1 year was $82,296. Keep in mind that this only accounts for 9 months of living expenses are opposed to the 12 months that we all live during the year (which I think is horseshit). This means that the COA of NW with interest and fees is looking more like 300k than the ostensible 200k that you have calculated here. I would anticipate that you should expect to shell out close to 150k even with the 150k scholarship that NW has thrown your way. I currently live less than a mile from NW and can tell you from personal experience that living anywhere close to the school is going to be very expensive and living far away from the school (as most students do) is going to be a pain in the ass. Obviously you'll have to weigh the variables in your own calculus, but it goes without saying that your final COA total hangs in the balance. I would anticipate that a decent 1br/1ba anywhere near the school is going to run you approximately 1500 a month.

Attending the U of C also comes at a much higher cost than you've indicated here. The total COA there was estimated this year to be around $84,000, which again with interest and fees and considering that you will be living 12 months a year rather than only 9, I would estimate that the total COA is going to be around 300k as a safe estimate. I attended the U of C for Undergrad and can tell you, however, that you will be able to live much cheaper in Hyde Park while still being walking distance from campus. The area is not nearly as fun and lively, but if keeping costs down is your aim, then Hyde Park is a much better bet.

That being said, the following are more realistic figures:

NW at 300kish - 150k scholly = 150k at repayment
U of C at 300kish - 45k scholly = 255k at repayment

If biglaw is your goal, it is impossible in my view to justify spending over 100k more to attend the University of Chicago (although I have great love for it as my alma matter). Northwestern seems to be the clear choice hear. Hope this helps and good luck! These are some great outcomes!

I'm not sure that $150k is entirely accurate though either...that seems really, really high

According to the G-Town Debt Calculator, the total indebtedness at repayment for NU using their own official COA estimate figures is $312,259. Given a 50k/year scholarship, the figure comes down to about 125k. However, I was also pointing out that the COA estimates only take into account expenses incurred during the academic year, and everyone knows that there are 12 months in a year in which you have to live/eat, not 9.

Given these variables, I don't think that 150k as an estimate of total indebtedness even after a 150k scholarship is far off at all.

GFox345 wrote: According to the G-Town Debt Calculator, the total indebtedness at repayment for NU using their own official COA estimate figures is $312,259. Given a 50k/year scholarship, the figure comes down to about 125k. However, I was also pointing out that the COA estimates only take into account expenses incurred during the academic year, and everyone knows that there are 12 months in a year in which you have to live/eat, not 9.

Given these variables, I don't think that 150k as an estimate of total indebtedness even after a 150k scholarship is far off at all.

Whatever the ultimate numbers are, if we assume the same total COA at both schools then the difference will be much larger than the 105k difference in schollies because of interest and origination fees. The difference grows even bigger once you account for interest post-repayment.

James.K.Polk wrote:I'd also see if you can get Michigan to move up; Michigan at $105 or something might be your best bet all around.

This is generally bad advice and given the information in the OP, is awful advice in this scenario.

Northwestern makes the most sense here, by a mile. UChi is probably worth some premium over NU but it certainly isn't worth more than like 30-45k at an absolute maximum. Probably not worth any premium given your goals. Given your age, you'd probably like NU more too.

Mullens wrote:

James.K.Polk wrote:I'd also see if you can get Michigan to move up; Michigan at $105 or something might be your best bet all around.

This is generally bad advice and given the information in the OP, is awful advice in this scenario.

Northwestern makes the most sense here, by a mile. UChi is probably worth some premium over NU but it certainly isn't worth more than like 30-45k at an absolute maximum. Probably not worth any premium given your goals. Given your age, you'd probably like NU more too.

Can you elaborate? Michigan places way, way better in DC than Northwestern does, and was one of the markets indicated by OP. It's also reasonable (although this is speculation) to think the that Michigan's job numbers will surpass Northwestern's when the Class of 2015 data comes out - they cut class size considerably and, I know TLS hates it, but the USNWR do mean something. I'd love to hear what makes this awful advice.

I have no horse in this race - I'm choosing between those schools, among others. Just curious.

Regardless, OP - congrats on the great options!

I made a similar decision to this three years ago, and chose Northwestern over UChicago. Northwestern gave me about $60K more, which was what TLS wisdom told me the difference should be. Now that I graduated, I am not so convinced that $60K should be the difference. $60K is A LOT of money to pay back and given your goals, I don't know that Northwestern would make sense to pass up here. Trust me, $60K doesn't feel like a lot now but it will feel like a lot when you get your loan repayment plan. With that said, I'd negotiate until I couldn't negotiate anymore with the schools you most want to attend.

Note that I went to UChicago for undergrad, so that played a part in my decision. I loved my experience there, but wanted something different and more practical-leaning for law school. Also, I wanted big law and I'm not really convinced that there's much of a difference in terms of big law opportunities coming out of either school. This impression is from my interview experiences coming out of law school and from what my firm's recruiter and other recruiters have told me.

James.K.Polk wrote:

Mullens wrote:

James.K.Polk wrote:I'd also see if you can get Michigan to move up; Michigan at $105 or something might be your best bet all around.

This is generally bad advice and given the information in the OP, is awful advice in this scenario.

Northwestern makes the most sense here, by a mile. UChi is probably worth some premium over NU but it certainly isn't worth more than like 30-45k at an absolute maximum. Probably not worth any premium given your goals. Given your age, you'd probably like NU more too.

Can you elaborate? Michigan places way, way better in DC than Northwestern does, and was one of the markets indicated by OP. It's also reasonable (although this is speculation) to think the that Michigan's job numbers will surpass Northwestern's when the Class of 2015 data comes out - they cut class size considerably and, I know TLS hates it, but the USNWR do mean something. I'd love to hear what makes this awful advice.

I have no horse in this race - I'm choosing between those schools, among others. Just curious.

Regardless, OP - congrats on the great options!

Yeah, sure. You're right that Michigan places better than Northwestern in DC, but if you combine Illinois+DC for the two schools, then Northwestern has a 40% to 26% edge overall. Some of this is self-selection for both schools and so I wouldn't read into any advantage in placement power. The two schools are peers in the non-Chicago job markets and Northwestern has a pretty big advantage over Michigan in Chicago due to location and firm hiring preferences.

Given the gap in cost, and because the two schools are job placement peers, it makes no sense to pay more at Michigan generally. It is especially bad advice in this scenario where OP's spouse has a preference for a large city. Northwestern also is now guaranteeing $8000 for PI jobs 1L summer and it can be topped up to $10000 with service hours.

I wouldn't make any assumptions based on Michigan's class sizes getting smaller, but for what it's worth, the NU classes of 2016-18 are all smaller than 2015.

Mullens wrote:

James.K.Polk wrote:

Mullens wrote:

James.K.Polk wrote:I'd also see if you can get Michigan to move up; Michigan at $105 or something might be your best bet all around.

This is generally bad advice and given the information in the OP, is awful advice in this scenario.

Northwestern makes the most sense here, by a mile. UChi is probably worth some premium over NU but it certainly isn't worth more than like 30-45k at an absolute maximum. Probably not worth any premium given your goals. Given your age, you'd probably like NU more too.

Can you elaborate? Michigan places way, way better in DC than Northwestern does, and was one of the markets indicated by OP. It's also reasonable (although this is speculation) to think the that Michigan's job numbers will surpass Northwestern's when the Class of 2015 data comes out - they cut class size considerably and, I know TLS hates it, but the USNWR do mean something. I'd love to hear what makes this awful advice.

I have no horse in this race - I'm choosing between those schools, among others. Just curious.

Regardless, OP - congrats on the great options!

Yeah, sure. You're right that Michigan places better than Northwestern in DC, but if you combine Illinois+DC for the two schools, then Northwestern has a 40% to 26% edge overall. Some of this is self-selection for both schools and so I wouldn't read into any advantage in placement power. The two schools are peers in the non-Chicago job markets and Northwestern has a pretty big advantage over Michigan in Chicago due to location and firm hiring preferences.

Given the gap in cost, and because the two schools are job placement peers, it makes no sense to pay more at Michigan generally. It is especially bad advice in this scenario where OP's spouse has a preference for a large city. Northwestern also is now guaranteeing $8000 for PI jobs 1L summer and it can be topped up to $10000 with service hours.

I wouldn't make any assumptions based on Michigan's class sizes getting smaller, but for what it's worth, the NU classes of 2016-18 are all smaller than 2015.

Thanks for the write-up - helpful both to OP (hopefully) and to me. I guess the other intangibles are clerkships (uncommon at both places, but more likely at Michigan than Northwestern) and later-in-life prestige (probably equal; maybe Michigan has an edge the further east you go).

Also, to be honest, I thought this was Northwestern at 120k, not 150k, which would have narrowed the gap considerably... but I'll leave my post for posterity (or, until I nuke posts for the summer!). Thanks!

So far this thread has focused more on the NW vs. UChicago part of the equation, which makes sense based on the OP. I'd be curious what people think the value difference is between NW and NYU is if the goal remains big law, with the small change of removing any particular distaste and perhaps even a desire for living long-term in NYC.

(OP - hope you're ok with me posing this question here. After all, you did include NYU in your shortlist!)

AnonymousPython wrote:So far this thread has focused more on the NW vs. UChicago part of the equation, which makes sense based on the OP. I'd be curious what people think the value difference is between NW and NYU is if the goal remains big law, with the small change of removing any particular distaste and perhaps even a desire for living long-term in NYC.

(OP - hope you're ok with me posing this question here. After all, you did include NYU in your shortlist!)

I wouldn't pay much more for NYU over Northwestern. Maybe 40-50k if you really prefer NYC, keeping in mind living there during LS is gonna cost more.

I'm an NYU grad but there's absolutely no reason to choose NYU in your situation.

In my opinion NU would be the correct choice.

northwestern.

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James.K.Polk wrote:

Mullens wrote:

James.K.Polk wrote:

Mullens wrote:

James.K.Polk wrote:I'd also see if you can get Michigan to move up; Michigan at $105 or something might be your best bet all around.

This is generally bad advice and given the information in the OP, is awful advice in this scenario.

Northwestern makes the most sense here, by a mile. UChi is probably worth some premium over NU but it certainly isn't worth more than like 30-45k at an absolute maximum. Probably not worth any premium given your goals. Given your age, you'd probably like NU more too.

Can you elaborate? Michigan places way, way better in DC than Northwestern does, and was one of the markets indicated by OP. It's also reasonable (although this is speculation) to think the that Michigan's job numbers will surpass Northwestern's when the Class of 2015 data comes out - they cut class size considerably and, I know TLS hates it, but the USNWR do mean something. I'd love to hear what makes this awful advice.

I have no horse in this race - I'm choosing between those schools, among others. Just curious.

Regardless, OP - congrats on the great options!

Yeah, sure. You're right that Michigan places better than Northwestern in DC, but if you combine Illinois+DC for the two schools, then Northwestern has a 40% to 26% edge overall. Some of this is self-selection for both schools and so I wouldn't read into any advantage in placement power. The two schools are peers in the non-Chicago job markets and Northwestern has a pretty big advantage over Michigan in Chicago due to location and firm hiring preferences.

Given the gap in cost, and because the two schools are job placement peers, it makes no sense to pay more at Michigan generally. It is especially bad advice in this scenario where OP's spouse has a preference for a large city. Northwestern also is now guaranteeing $8000 for PI jobs 1L summer and it can be topped up to $10000 with service hours.

I wouldn't make any assumptions based on Michigan's class sizes getting smaller, but for what it's worth, the NU classes of 2016-18 are all smaller than 2015.

Thanks for the write-up - helpful both to OP (hopefully) and to me. I guess the other intangibles are clerkships (uncommon at both places, but more likely at Michigan than Northwestern) and later-in-life prestige (probably equal; maybe Michigan has an edge the further east you go).

Also, to be honest, I thought this was Northwestern at 120k, not 150k, which would have narrowed the gap considerably... but I'll leave my post for posterity (or, until I nuke posts for the summer!). Thanks!

I'm in a very similar position as OP (slightly varying school/$$$ considerations), but see NU, Duke & Chi as far superior choices for OPs goals (NYU is too much $$$/clashes with locations). Michigan has struggled in biglaw placement lately, and I'm not sure that's changing (For the class of 2015's NLJ 100 placement: NU, Duke and Chi had between a 17%-22% placement advantage on Michigan). In regards to clerking, and certainly prestige (which is highly subjective), I don't see Michigan having any real advantage over the other schools. Plus NU places better in Chicago, and Duke places better in D.C. Chi gives you the best of both worlds, but at a significant expense.

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In my personal opinion, government work like that is hard to get into anywhere. And I think it depends less on the caliber of your school (although that may get you in the door for sure, and I think HYS > the rest of the T14 on this front) and more on the caliber of your connections (and to a lesser extent, your grades). If that's your ultimate goal, no matter what school you go to - I'd try to take advantage of an externship program that places you into one of those government agencies and do a really good job for them. Stay in touch with those government lawyers so that you know when positions open up and you can apply.

I don't know if Uchicago has something like this (probably does), but Northwestern has a practicum where you can work for a government agency for a semester and make these connections - and get class credit for it too. I did it and I know others who externed for the SEC, DOJ, etc. It was incredibly informative. I feel like most schools will have these options to network if you look for them, but I only know about the Northwestern-specific ones.

Also, if government is your ultimate goal - having to pay off less debt is always a good thing.

I'll give a contrary opinion to TLS wisdom. I had the exact same choice, and do not regret taking Chicago at all. Nearly everyone that wants big law gets it, the median student at Chicago has more opportunities than the median student at NU, and if you are in the top 1/3, federal clerkships are relatively easy to come by. You need to decide for yourself what is important when picking a school (I am less debt-averse than most TLSers and also placed a high premium on guaranteed big law).

Feel free to PM me if you have more specific questions.