Top Law Schools

Please delete this thread.

LittleGiants16 wrote:Alright everyone, bear with me. I've whittled my choices down to three school: Harvard, Duke, and WUSTL. I am a KJD applicant with 174/3.88 stats. I only took the LSAT once, as 173+ is largely a point of diminishing return.

The following are my projected COAs for the three schools:
Harvard: ~$275,000 (sticker)
Duke: ~$150,000 (in process of negotiating for more discount)
WUSTL: ~$0 (full tuition plus significant stipend)

After law school, I would like to return to a mid-market Midwestern city (Indianapolis, St. Louis, Cincinnati) to do litigation work at a firm. I'd like to land at a biglaw outpost in one of these cities, but obviously that is a tough thing to do. Clerking would be fun, but it is neither a make or break factor in this decision.

More importantly, I do not want to land in NYC, Chicago, or DC. I do not like large cities and have no interest in living in one at any point in the near future (for example, I was awarded a Butler at Columbia and a $135k scholly at NYU and never considered either).

It should also be noted that I am EXTREMELY debt averse. I have no undergraduate debt and am deeply bothered by taking out nearly $300k in loans to pay for Harvard.

I suppose that I'm deeply torn between two of these schools. On one hand, I genuinely like WUSTL and St. Louis at large. It is an area I'd be happy landing in and I would have no problem with staying in STL for the foreseeable future. On the other hand, however, is Harvard. Obviously it's a bigger name than WashU and has significantly more cache. Attending Harvard would open doors for me that I won't have opened at WashU.

So, my TLS friends, with this information in mind, where would you advise me to go? And I promise, my weighing H against WUSTL is not a flame. Thanks in advance.

Don't go to WUSTL with those stats. I am also of the opinion that no school is worth sticker, even H. So by process of elimination that leaves Duke, which might not be the best choice for your goals (Duke is a great school but is more notorious in the South than Midwest by a landslide).

You should be in at U Chicago (with some money), Northwestern (with a near full-ride) or Michigan (with a Darrow) with those stats. All of those schools place phenomenally well in the Midwest. I understand that you don't like living in big cities, but I would suck it up for three years for Chi or NU because then you could likely go wherever you want in the Midwest.

I would sit this cycle out and reapply early next cycle.

I IMPLORE you not to come to WUSTL with those stats.

I would second what the first commenter said--I think it would be worth sucking it up and living in NYC for three years for no debt (plus, great schools).

BUT, it's your choice, and if you really love WashU and think you'd be happy there, then I understand why you would go. It's also completely understandable to pick H, too, in my opinion.

RedWhite&Blonde wrote:I would second what the first commenter said--I think it would be worth sucking it up and living in NYC for three years for no debt (plus, great schools).

BUT, it's your choice, and if you really love WashU and think you'd be happy there, then I understand why you would go. It's also completely understandable to pick H, too, in my opinion.

Thank you for your note, but I simply cannot express how much I do not wish to live in NYC or Chicago for any period of time. Even visiting those cities makes me unreasonably anxious, and I cannot imagine what living there would do to my mental state.

I'm an old dude (at least as far as TLS is concerned). One of the things I've learned about myself is that 22 year old me had absolutely zero idea what 32 year old me wants or needs. I'm not an entirely different person at 32, but different enough that I'm confidently going to extrapolate into my future and also understand 32 year old me has no idea what 42 or 52 year old me will want either.

I'm saying this to caution you about closing doors and opportunities to yourself at 22. You may be right, and in 50 years you may still be in St. Louis...happy and content. But, given the chance you may change over the years, allow yourself some flexibility...your 32 year old self may be grateful for the flexibility that comes with a nationally recognized law degree. Maybe you'll meet a significant other from a different region and need to get a job close to their family. Maybe you'll end up with a child who has an exceptional disability that needs treatment only offered in a big city. Maybe you'll discover an interest in paragliding and move to Colorado to pursue your passion. Who knows where you will be in a few years.

These kind of flexibility options will be closed to you at WUSTL. It is a regional school with a regional employment outlook. Just because you want to be in that region at 22 doesn't mean you will want or be able to remain in that region at 32. Nobody has a crystal ball. Consequently, I would suggest you choose one of your options in the T14 that will afford you some flexibility in the future. If debt remains a major concern (as it should be) perhaps Duke is your best bet. But I wouldn't categorically rule out Harvard either.

Good luck dude.

Don't think H is worth sticker, especially given your goals and debt aversion.

WUSTL for free is always defensible, and if you really love the school then that's a reasonable option if you're okay staying in the immediate region / dropping out on the off chance you don't do well. That said, though you might have to take on slightly more debt at a t-14, I'd say it would be worth it given the higher biglaw/fedclerk chances. Any offers from Chicago, Northwestern, or Michigan? You should be attending the latter two for free (or close to it) and the first at a significant discount - these would seem to be the best schools to target (as opposed to Duke or Penn) if you want biglaw in the midwest.

Just as a side note, while getting biglaw from a t-14 is fairly straightforward, securing biglaw in a smaller market can be somewhat tricky (less positions available, not as many firms, etc). So if your goal is biglaw litigation, you might end up in a big city anyways for a year or two until you can lateral back home

WUSTL doesn't necessarily place well in, say, Indianapolis. You'd be a lot better off in Indy with a Michigan degree.

You are a very successful student and someone with PHENOMENAL opportunities in front of you...your life is hardly a mess. The person I wrote to a month ago who was ready to pay sticker at a TTT is someone with a messy life. Anyway...

Is it safe to assume that you applied across the entire T-14 and these are the best offers/only options you're considering? I ask because I have seen plenty of Michigan talk, but Michigan isn't on your list.

First, Harvard's sticker isn't $275k, it is $330k, which is simply staggering and for your goals (which are pretty typical) it's just not objectively justifiable. I'd turn a prior poster's flexibility argument on its head...by going to WUSTL, you actually guarantee yourself a free exit from law at any time of your choosing. Should you feel called to join the circus or become Beyonce's new makeup artist, you can go without a second thought because you'll have no encumbrances. If you go to Harvard at sticker, you'll be chained to making at least $62k/year to actually service your loans in some form.* And to service your debt at something like an ideal level (ideal is sort of a fiction with this much debt--you'll be spending $3,770/month or upwards of 70% of your debt allowance on student loans, but it's a 10 year am), you'll need to make at least $150k/year. That's the essence of not having freedom.

Forget reapplying. Why would you reapply? You'll just end up in the same place and Harvard may not even be there on the rebound. You won't be getting any more money from Harvard, unless your parent's situation changes and I guess you could gun for a Darrow or a Ruby, but after a certain threshhold, which you're basically beyond now, those things are not stats based.

When someone capitalizes debt aversion, I get the message and don't think you should pass up an option that involves zero debt. Even if you can keep pushing your sizable discount at Duke, you'll still need to borrow for living expenses. I think you should go WUSTL. Know thyself always. They will be thrilled to have you.

*If loans are consolidated, they can be put on a 25 year am, reducing your monthly to $2,260/month. This is a very difficult path, however, because first that's you borrowing at your 43% maximum for comfortable debt service per the mortgage underwriting business (h/t tls2016 for bringing this into our thinking). Also, you will end up paying more in interest than you borrowed initially. CRAZY!

For those who are curious, I was waitlisted at Michigan despite a "Why Michigan" essay. I assume super-duper-YP, but adcomms are, and forever will be, black boxes.

LittleGiants16 wrote:For those who are curious, I was waitlisted at Michigan despite a "Why Michigan" essay. I assume super-duper-YP, but adcomms are, and forever will be, black boxes.

This, this, is definitely a YP, so LOL at those "take the Darrow" suggestions.

fliptrip wrote:

LittleGiants16 wrote:For those who are curious, I was waitlisted at Michigan despite a "Why Michigan" essay. I assume super-duper-YP, but adcomms are, and forever will be, black boxes.

This, this, is definitely a YP, so LOL at those "take the Darrow" suggestions.

Maybe they were right as it seems like he wouldn't have taken Michigan anyway.
Did OP say where he has ties or just that StLoius is his kind of town?

Tls2016 wrote:

fliptrip wrote:

LittleGiants16 wrote:For those who are curious, I was waitlisted at Michigan despite a "Why Michigan" essay. I assume super-duper-YP, but adcomms are, and forever will be, black boxes.

This, this, is definitely a YP, so LOL at those "take the Darrow" suggestions.

Maybe they were right as it seems like he wouldn't have taken Michigan anyway.
Did OP say where he has ties or just that StLoius is his kind of town?

Both. I am not originally from STL, but have family in St. Louis, spent significant time there during summers as a child, and have been a life STL sports fan. So while I may not have an STL high school by my name, I am moderately tied to the city.

Tls2016 wrote:

fliptrip wrote:

LittleGiants16 wrote:For those who are curious, I was waitlisted at Michigan despite a "Why Michigan" essay. I assume super-duper-YP, but adcomms are, and forever will be, black boxes.

This, this, is definitely a YP, so LOL at those "take the Darrow" suggestions.

Maybe they were right as it seems like he wouldn't have taken Michigan anyway.
Did OP say where he has ties or just that StLoius is his kind of town?

I think admissions offices are getting better every year at snuffing out folks who aren't really interested.

fliptrip wrote:

LittleGiants16 wrote:For those who are curious, I was waitlisted at Michigan despite a "Why Michigan" essay. I assume super-duper-YP, but adcomms are, and forever will be, black boxes.

This, this, is definitely a YP, so LOL at those "take the Darrow" suggestions.

I am convinced that all non-Columbia full rides are black boxes. Which makes it funny when people give retake for t-14 full ride advice.

LittleGiants16 wrote:I am a KJD applicant

Get a year or two of work experience (e: if possible, in one of the cities you think you want to work in). If you still want to be a lawyer, reapply.

LittleGiants16 wrote:I simply cannot express how much I do not wish to live in NYC or Chicago for any period of time. Even visiting those cities makes me unreasonably anxious, and I cannot imagine what living there would do to my mental state.

Fellow Missourian who also hates NYC. If your issue with NYC is the rat-race feel, the crowds of foot traffic, and the people who seem chronically rushed, and the lack of green spaces, Chicago and DC are much much better on all counts. Chicago is much friendlier and meaningfully less dense, and DC is a totally different vibe (no sky scrapers).

kcdc1 wrote:

LittleGiants16 wrote:I simply cannot express how much I do not wish to live in NYC or Chicago for any period of time. Even visiting those cities makes me unreasonably anxious, and I cannot imagine what living there would do to my mental state.

Fellow Missourian who also hates NYC. If your issue with NYC is the rat-race feel, the crowds of foot traffic, and the people who seem chronically rushed, and the lack of green spaces, Chicago and DC are much much better on all counts. Chicago is much friendlier and meaningfully less dense, and DC is a totally different vibe (no sky scrapers).

Well this is true especially if you go to U of C.

kcdc1 wrote:

LittleGiants16 wrote:I simply cannot express how much I do not wish to live in NYC or Chicago for any period of time. Even visiting those cities makes me unreasonably anxious, and I cannot imagine what living there would do to my mental state.

Fellow Missourian who also hates NYC. If your issue with NYC is the rat-race feel, the crowds of foot traffic, and the people who seem chronically rushed, and the lack of green spaces, Chicago and DC are much much better on all counts. Chicago is much friendlier and meaningfully less dense, and DC is a totally different vibe (no sky scrapers).

Morning side Heights is hardly the hustle and bustle of NYC. If you care about green space Riverside Park is right there. If you can't handle that, I doubt you could handle Chicago or DC.

LittleGiants16 wrote:

RedWhite&Blonde wrote:I would second what the first commenter said--I think it would be worth sucking it up and living in NYC for three years for no debt (plus, great schools).

BUT, it's your choice, and if you really love WashU and think you'd be happy there, then I understand why you would go. It's also completely understandable to pick H, too, in my opinion.

Thank you for your note, but I simply cannot express how much I do not wish to live in NYC or Chicago for any period of time. Even visiting those cities makes me unreasonably anxious, and I cannot imagine what living there would do to my mental state.

I understand that. With that in mind, if you haven't already visited H, I would consider doing that to see how you like Cambridge. It's urban but not as bad as NYC/Chicago.

If you decide not to choose WashU, I think you'd really enjoy Durham

Best of luck with your decision and congrats on having some great options!

RedWhite&Blonde wrote:

LittleGiants16 wrote:

RedWhite&Blonde wrote:I would second what the first commenter said--I think it would be worth sucking it up and living in NYC for three years for no debt (plus, great schools).

BUT, it's your choice, and if you really love WashU and think you'd be happy there, then I understand why you would go. It's also completely understandable to pick H, too, in my opinion.

Thank you for your note, but I simply cannot express how much I do not wish to live in NYC or Chicago for any period of time. Even visiting those cities makes me unreasonably anxious, and I cannot imagine what living there would do to my mental state.

I understand that. With that in mind, if you haven't already visited H, I would consider doing that to see how you like Cambridge. It's urban but not as bad as NYC/Chicago.

If you decide not to choose WashU, I think you'd really enjoy Durham

Best of luck with your decision and congrats on having some great options!

What the fribble? How can you possibly advise a severely debt averse person that they should take on $300k+ in debt to go to Harvard? Where exactly does OP want to go that he needs Harvard in order to achieve?

Its a shame about Michigan. Based on the info provided, Michigan at full/close to full scholly would have been a fantastic option for you.. That being said, I'd take on the debt for the national degree and geographic flexibility that Duke provides. First, you may end up liking the south and wanting to stay in a mid/small city there. Second, you never know what is gonna happen..may meet a S/O that changes your outlook on life and next thing you know you are moving to NYC to chase the girl/guy. Finally, as another poster said, you might simply change your mind about what you want/where you want to be when you grow up.

So Duke has my vote. That being said, I think the BEST option would be to work for a year or two, reapply with same stats and see where chips fall.

acr wrote:

LittleGiants16 wrote:Alright everyone, bear with me. I've whittled my choices down to three school: Harvard, Duke, and WUSTL. I am a KJD applicant with 174/3.88 stats. I only took the LSAT once, as 173+ is largely a point of diminishing return.

The following are my projected COAs for the three schools:
Harvard: ~$275,000 (sticker)
Duke: ~$150,000 (in process of negotiating for more discount)
WUSTL: ~$0 (full tuition plus significant stipend)

After law school, I would like to return to a mid-market Midwestern city (Indianapolis, St. Louis, Cincinnati) to do litigation work at a firm. I'd like to land at a biglaw outpost in one of these cities, but obviously that is a tough thing to do. Clerking would be fun, but it is neither a make or break factor in this decision.

More importantly, I do not want to land in NYC, Chicago, or DC. I do not like large cities and have no interest in living in one at any point in the near future (for example, I was awarded a Butler at Columbia and a $135k scholly at NYU and never considered either).

It should also be noted that I am EXTREMELY debt averse. I have no undergraduate debt and am deeply bothered by taking out nearly $300k in loans to pay for Harvard.

I suppose that I'm deeply torn between two of these schools. On one hand, I genuinely like WUSTL and St. Louis at large. It is an area I'd be happy landing in and I would have no problem with staying in STL for the foreseeable future. On the other hand, however, is Harvard. Obviously it's a bigger name than WashU and has significantly more cache. Attending Harvard would open doors for me that I won't have opened at WashU.

So, my TLS friends, with this information in mind, where would you advise me to go? And I promise, my weighing H against WUSTL is not a flame. Thanks in advance.

Don't go to WUSTL with those stats. I am also of the opinion that no school is worth sticker, even H. So by process of elimination that leaves Duke, which might not be the best choice for your goals (Duke is a great school but is more notorious in the South than Midwest by a landslide).

You should be in at U Chicago (with some money), Northwestern (with a near full-ride) or Michigan (with a Darrow) with those stats. All of those schools place phenomenally well in the Midwest. I understand that you don't like living in big cities, but I would suck it up for three years for Chi or NU because then you could likely go wherever you want in the Midwest.

I would sit this cycle out and reapply early next cycle.

I IMPLORE you not to come to WUSTL with those stats.

Yeah, agree with this post. I'd reapply - I don't think you're getting enough money at Duke with those numbers, and Duke isn't that great for the Midwest...plus, I wouldn't pay 275k-300k for any law school, including Yale.

Bumping because of additional information. The following are my new projected COAs for the three schools I'm still considering:
Harvard: $218,000 ($27,500 in grant aid for year one, assuming similar aid in subsequent years)
Duke: ~$160,000 (in process of negotiating for more discount)
WUSTL: ~$0 (full tuition plus significant stipend)

Any further commentary is greatly appreciated!

Has your extreme debt aversion changed at all? Any choice other than WUSTL involves considerable debt.

LittleGiants16 wrote:Bumping because of additional information. The following are my new projected COAs for the three schools I'm still considering:
Harvard: $218,000 ($27,500 in grant aid for year one, assuming similar aid in subsequent years)
Duke: ~$160,000 (in process of negotiating for more discount)
WUSTL: ~$0 (full tuition plus significant stipend)

Any further commentary is greatly appreciated!

Harvard. Debt sucks ass but id say H is worth 50k more than Duke. As for those saying sit a year out, id understand that appeal if you had a bad cycle but theres no guarantee youd do better. Shame about Michigan. Did you try writing a LOCI?