H v Chi v Penn v Vandy PI Forum

[pterodactyls]

From my understanding, all but HYS have LRAP that is tied to IBR/PSLF. The only thing that worries me is factoring in spousal income if I want to get married in the following 10 years after law school. Ideally, I would want to get married around age 30 and start having children at that age too. It's just hard to think about at this point in life when I am not ready for either.

From reading about Harvard's LRAP on their website, I will get full or 90% of loans paid by Harvard if I'm single in the 55k salary range or less (or if married and spouse making less than me). Once I get above that, more and more contribution on my part will be required.

At Chicago LRAP fully covers all salaries below 80k, which is fantastic, but it is tied to IBR/PSLF.

It really depends on how confident you are that you will spend 10 years working in the public sector. For me personally, I'm not entirely confident on the 10 years so I would take the flexibility of the Harvard plan.

Are you pretty serious with your SO / is that who you think you will marry? If so, do you know what your SO's likely salary would be? It matters if your spouse makes more than you. Harvard will take either your salary, or half of the combined salary, whichever is higher. So if you marry a teacher, probably nbd. But if you marry a doctor, could be a problem.

[tsujimoto74]

Did you not apply to NYU? I'd think you'd be a strong RTK candidate with those numbers. That said, if your goal is dat unicorn impact lit, I think you've gotta go Harvard.

Full disclosure: 0L, so my advice should probably be taken with a healthy dose of salt.

[Tls2016]

If you're planning on using LRAP, Harvard is the clear choice to me (and probably would be regardless).

Harvard's LRAP actually makes the full payment on your loans each year, including up to $30k in undergrad loans and I think $5k in bar loans. You make chip in a small portion based on a sliding scale, and Harvard pays the rest. With most of the other schools, you would be relying on PSLF - they chip in a portion of your reduced income-based repayments rather than the standard amount. Meaning, you're putting off most of your loans and waiting for federal forgiveness after 10 years. If you leave public sector before year 10, you're left with a giant bill.

Way more flexibility and less risk with the Harvard plan.

From my understanding, all but HYS have LRAP that is tied to IBR/PSLF. The only thing that worries me is factoring in spousal income if I want to get married in the following 10 years after law school. Ideally, I would want to get married around age 30 and start having children at that age too. It's just hard to think about at this point in life when I am not ready for either.

From reading about Harvard's LRAP on their website, I will get full or 90% of loans paid by Harvard if I'm single in the 55k salary range or less (or if married and spouse making less than me). Once I get above that, more and more contribution on my part will be required.

At Chicago LRAP fully covers all salaries below 80k, which is fantastic, but it is tied to IBR/PSLF.

Chicago gives a one time $10,000 payment if you leave IBR for a private firm after 5 years.
Harvard gives a child care deduction if you have kids. There is no cap at Harvard but it seems to end at around $87,000 of joint income, minus the deductions, etc.
You really need to speak directly with the LRAP experts at each school. Get exact numbers based on your debt if you can or at least as close as you can.

[Theresa87]

my biggest concern is that I will land that dream job in the 10 years after Harvard and make somewhere between 60-100k and then be faced with paying back a big chunk of my loans while trying to provide for a family and live somewhere like NYC or DC where the cost of living will be high.

If that were the case then chicagos LRAP would still cover me up to 80k, but I may not even get that job in the first place coming out of Chicago.

If Harvards LIPP fully covered up to 80K I would take Harvard and not look back.

[fliptrip]

If you're planning on using LRAP, Harvard is the clear choice to me (and probably would be regardless).

Harvard's LRAP actually makes the full payment on your loans each year, including up to $30k in undergrad loans and I think $5k in bar loans. You make chip in a small portion based on a sliding scale, and Harvard pays the rest. With most of the other schools, you would be relying on PSLF - they chip in a portion of your reduced income-based repayments rather than the standard amount. Meaning, you're putting off most of your loans and waiting for federal forgiveness after 10 years. If you leave public sector before year 10, you're left with a giant bill.

Way more flexibility and less risk with the Harvard plan.

From my understanding, all but HYS have LRAP that is tied to IBR/PSLF. The only thing that worries me is factoring in spousal income if I want to get married in the following 10 years after law school. Ideally, I would want to get married around age 30 and start having children at that age too. It's just hard to think about at this point in life when I am not ready for either.

From reading about Harvard's LRAP on their website, I will get full or 90% of loans paid by Harvard if I'm single in the 55k salary range or less (or if married and spouse making less than me). Once I get above that, more and more contribution on my part will be required.

At Chicago LRAP fully covers all salaries below 80k, which is fantastic, but it is tied to IBR/PSLF.

First, and our neighborhood dinosaur knows I pick on him for these things, so I hope he's not offended. You are not left with a big bill the day you leave an IBR/PAYE/PSLF track. That makes it sound like you get hit with a huge $200,000 payment that you must make that day. What's really going on is that your loan is negatively amoritizing (your outstanding balance actually increases over time). So, it's basically all or nothing in that sort of scheme, because the longer you spend in LRAP, the worse your problem is getting if you don't make it the 10 years. If you can get your hands on a good am calculator, you can see how massive your outstanding balance will be over the time you spend in the program.

That's all sort of moot though because you have Harvard and they don't do it like that, thank God. Anyway, I think it is very hard to make a decision like this anticipating a spouse down the road. Who knows what characteristics this spouse will have? It's hard to find a spouse anyway, and though you're not planning on it, you might still be single in 13 years. If you do end up ready to enter the bonds of matrimony, this is just another thing that you'll need to be open and honest about with your spouse as you all are making plans for how the business side (the most important btw) of your family is going to run. I assure you that coming in with an obligation that has a definite end date that you've managed responsibly will cause no issue.

[pterodactyls]

First, and our neighborhood dinosaur knows I pick on him for these things, so I hope he's not offended.

Not offended, human. Pterodactyls have thick skin.

I tend to simplify, cause us dinosaurs get bored discussing the details of amortization.

[fliptrip]

^^^ Who knew that human/dinosaur relations could be so amicable?

Anyway, I'm clearly slow on the uptake because I am just now realizing how awful LRAP can be for someone's life if they don't go to HYS. How in the world are you ever going to buy a house with a student loan balance that never goes down and if you're in the program, you're not making much anyway? This sounds like a bummer...a bummer, dude.

[jbagelboy]

^^^ Who knew that human/dinosaur relations could be so amicable?

Anyway, I'm clearly slow on the uptake because I am just now realizing how awful LRAP can be for someone's life if they don't go to HYS. How in the world are you ever going to buy a house with a student loan balance that never goes down and if you're in the program, you're not making much anyway? This sounds like a bummer...a bummer, dude.

how is it different if you go to one of those three schools. they don't even all necessarily have the best LRAP (YLS obviously does)

[Tls2016]

my biggest concern is that I will land that dream job in the 10 years after Harvard and make somewhere between 60-100k and then be faced with paying back a big chunk of my loans while trying to provide for a family and live somewhere like NYC or DC where the cost of living will be high.

If that were the case then chicagos LRAP would still cover me up to 80k, but I may not even get that job in the first place coming out of Chicago.

If Harvards LIPP fully covered up to 80K I would take Harvard and not look back.

When you talk to the Harvard person find out how many people leave the program. Also find out about all the adjustments they make because you get additional money for being in the program longer. Maybe you could get the names of some alumni who left the program and find out their experience.

In all of this don't forget the beauty of being able to go to a top law school, get the job you want and not having to repay 100% of your loans.

[WinterComing]

^^^ Who knew that human/dinosaur relations could be so amicable?

Anyway, I'm clearly slow on the uptake because I am just now realizing how awful LRAP can be for someone's life if they don't go to HYS. How in the world are you ever going to buy a house with a student loan balance that never goes down and if you're in the program, you're not making much anyway? This sounds like a bummer...a bummer, dude.

how is it different if you go to one of those three schools. they don't even all necessarily have the best LRAP (YLS obviously does)

Yeah, for instance, Harvard's LIPP puts pretty strict limits on the amount of assets you can accumulate while enrolled, such that buying a house will be difficult. This is especially true for K-JD types, because they give you a little extra leeway for years worked before law school.

[somethingElse]

^^^ Who knew that human/dinosaur relations could be so amicable?

Anyway, I'm clearly slow on the uptake because I am just now realizing how awful LRAP can be for someone's life if they don't go to HYS. How in the world are you ever going to buy a house with a student loan balance that never goes down and if you're in the program, you're not making much anyway? This sounds like a bummer...a bummer, dude.

how is it different if you go to one of those three schools. they don't even all necessarily have the best LRAP (YLS obviously does)

I'm still new to LRAPs but have been trying to research them as I will likely be utilizing one. I believe that very few LRAPs do not involve negative amortization. But I think you're right, in that HYS aren't the only ones that don't. Columbia's doesn't (necessarily). I also think that Columbia's LRAP on the whole is arguably the best, or at least on part with HYS, but someone more informed feel free to correct me on that. I also think that Cornell's doesn't necessarily (have negative amortization), but I'm less sure on that.

[fliptrip]

^^^ Who knew that human/dinosaur relations could be so amicable?

Anyway, I'm clearly slow on the uptake because I am just now realizing how awful LRAP can be for someone's life if they don't go to HYS. How in the world are you ever going to buy a house with a student loan balance that never goes down and if you're in the program, you're not making much anyway? This sounds like a bummer...a bummer, dude.

how is it different if you go to one of those three schools. they don't even all necessarily have the best LRAP (YLS obviously does)

Disclaimer: I don't know Columbia's LRAP well at all, so forgive me if this applies to them as well.

It's dramatically different. They service your loans at the 10-year straight am, so your outstanding balance actually decreases over time. So, after 10-years if you stay in that long, you actually don't owe a dime, instead of owing some massive figure that the government is going to forgive.

In terms of my buying the house example, I think you might be able to count the LIPP/LRAP/COAP payment as income.

[somethingElse]

Another important thing - depending on your circumstances - is that some LRAPs (NYU, for instance) require you to use up all your assets before you can jump on their LRAP. Pretty big deal for some people. I'm not sure where other schools stand on this issue...

Just realized that this doesn't really apply to the OP though, so I apologize.

[fliptrip]

^^^ Who knew that human/dinosaur relations could be so amicable?

Anyway, I'm clearly slow on the uptake because I am just now realizing how awful LRAP can be for someone's life if they don't go to HYS. How in the world are you ever going to buy a house with a student loan balance that never goes down and if you're in the program, you're not making much anyway? This sounds like a bummer...a bummer, dude.

how is it different if you go to one of those three schools. they don't even all necessarily have the best LRAP (YLS obviously does)

Yeah, for instance, Harvard's LIPP puts pretty strict limits on the amount of assets you can accumulate while enrolled, such that buying a house will be difficult. This is especially true for K-JD types, because they give you a little extra leeway for years worked before law school.

Ahhhh, this is interesting. So, it looks like regardless of where you go, "No house for you!" if you're on LRAP.

[WinterComing]

Look, I'm not trying to be some anti-LRAP devil's advocate here. I think it's great that the programs let certain people save the whales without having to worry about repaying their massive loans. I'm just saying that one should take a hard, hard look at all the fine print of the various programs.

I have similar career goals to OP, and I was initially considering turning down big T-14 scholarships to use LIPP at Harvard. Then I read all the rules, and I realized LIPP probably wouldn't work for me and my family. Trying to use it would have negative consequences that would probably outweigh the benefits.

Again, all I'm saying is to be very careful before putting your eggs in that basket. OP has a pretty healthy need-based grant, so Harvard seems like a good choice for her. She should just make it after considering all of the fine print.

[WinterComing]

^^^ Who knew that human/dinosaur relations could be so amicable?

Anyway, I'm clearly slow on the uptake because I am just now realizing how awful LRAP can be for someone's life if they don't go to HYS. How in the world are you ever going to buy a house with a student loan balance that never goes down and if you're in the program, you're not making much anyway? This sounds like a bummer...a bummer, dude.

how is it different if you go to one of those three schools. they don't even all necessarily have the best LRAP (YLS obviously does)

Yeah, for instance, Harvard's LIPP puts pretty strict limits on the amount of assets you can accumulate while enrolled, such that buying a house will be difficult. This is especially true for K-JD types, because they give you a little extra leeway for years worked before law school.

Ahhhh, this is interesting. So, it looks like regardless of where you go, "No house for you!" if you're on LRAP.

In case OP is interested, here is more info on how LIPP deals with assets: http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/sfs/lipp/assets-in-lipp/

So like, if you're five years in, you can't have more than $50,000 to your name, or Harvard will take a chunk of the extra money from you.

[pterodactyls]

Had to leave for a few mins to hunt for some fish...

Couple things I'll throw in,

Last I checked, if I remember correctly, Columbia offers two options now - an IBR option and a non-IBR option. Though I believe their non-IBR option wasn't as generous as H's in covering undergraduate debt as well.

I think if you are looking to buy a house, the financial aid office will provide you with a letter outlining the terms of LRAP and why your debt shouldn't be considered an issue. H's website says it has always worked in the past. But, I'm not sure if this would differ for an IBR LRAP (because the bankers would be taking your word that you will stay in public sector 10 years, vs. H paying off your loans each year).

To the post about YLS being the best: though I haven't read all the fine print, my initial impression was that Stanford had the best LRAP. They will include all undergraduate and graduate debt, at no limit. That includes both prior graduate degrees and dual-degrees obtained at S. So conceivably, you could walk out of SLS with like $400,000 in debt and they would pay most of it. Totally outside the scope of this thread, just fish for thought.

[fliptrip]

^^Yes, at Stanford, the asset allowance is $130,000. They count any amount beyond that as income.

There are some minutiae that make the YLS program better, but the biggest reason is that you can work any job, legal or not, public interest, or not, and participate. If you want to take your YLS JD and go start a record company, COAP will help you out while you recruit your artists. That's pretty cool.

Yale is tricky, tricky, though. They calculate their assistance on a 15-year am for the first five years and a 5-year am for the final five, clearly creating the incentive to stay in the program, as you'll end up debt free at the end. But, the consequences of leaving early are worse at Yale than at Harvard or Stanford.

Pterodactyls' point about SLS is an excellent one, but SLS is more restrictive on your types of employment. You have to be doing law-related work at a government agency, a 501(c)3/4, or at a private firm that does 50% pro bono work.

Sorry..this was a major derailing.

[Tls2016]

^^^ Who knew that human/dinosaur relations could be so amicable?

Anyway, I'm clearly slow on the uptake because I am just now realizing how awful LRAP can be for someone's life if they don't go to HYS. How in the world are you ever going to buy a house with a student loan balance that never goes down and if you're in the program, you're not making much anyway? This sounds like a bummer...a bummer, dude.

how is it different if you go to one of those three schools. they don't even all necessarily have the best LRAP (YLS obviously does)

Yeah, for instance, Harvard's LIPP puts pretty strict limits on the amount of assets you can accumulate while enrolled, such that buying a house will be difficult. This is especially true for K-JD types, because they give you a little extra leeway for years worked before law school.

Ahhhh, this is interesting. So, it looks like regardless of where you go, "No house for you!" if you're on LRAP.

In case OP is interested, here is more info on how LIPP deals with assets: http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/sfs/lipp/assets-in-lipp/

So like, if you're five years in, you can't have more than $50,000 to your name, or Harvard will take a chunk of the extra money from you.

It's not exactly true. You get $10,000 protected at graduation and $8,000 every year after. At five years after graduation: 10,000 plus 5(8,000) are protected or double if married.
Assets over $55,000 decrease your award by .50 of the unprotected amount. ( the percentage they use for the calculation increases. 10 every year out. So year 7 they would use 70% as protected, year 8 80%, etc.)So if you have 5,000 unprotected : your total payment from Harvard in year 5 will reduce by $2,500.

That's the way I understand it. I'm assuming OP is talking to Harvard directly

[WinterComing]

It's not exactly true. You get $10,000 protected at graduation and $8,000 every year after. At five years after graduation: 10,000 plus 5(8,000) are protected or double if married.
Assets over $55,000 decrease your award by .50 of the unprotected amount. ( the percentage they use for the calculation increases. 10 every year out. So year 7 they would use 70% as protected, year 8 80%, etc.)So if you have 5,000 unprotected : your total payment from Harvard in year 5 will reduce by $2,500.

That's the way I understand it. I'm assuming OP is talking to Harvard directly

I don't think what you said contradicts what I said in any way, but regardless, the point is we both agree that OP should be careful and consult Harvard to make sure she fully understands LIPP.

/thread

[Theresa87]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I have been reading the fine print on LIPP and will be reading the fine print on other school's LRAP programs, consulting all articles on LRAP and PI on TLS, and soon I will be talking to Harvard financial aid to clear up all the "what-ifs."

The biggest issue now is that as a 23 year old who has some PI experience but not PI legal experience, I am unsure about the future as far as buying a house, location, spouse, kids, etc. I guess many that go into law school are in the same boat, but I probably won't be able to make the best informed decision with my current life experiences.

[fliptrip]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I have been reading the fine print on LIPP and will be reading the fine print on other school's LRAP programs, consulting all articles on LRAP and PI on TLS, and soon I will be talking to Harvard financial aid to clear up all the "what-ifs."

The biggest issue now is that as a 23 year old who has some PI experience but not PI legal experience, I am unsure about the future as far as buying a house, location, spouse, kids, etc. I guess many that go into law school are in the same boat, but I probably won't be able to make the best informed decision with my current life experiences.

Oh, OP, rest your uneasy head. Just live life and try to make the best choices you can with an eye toward your ultimate life goals. You are hardly going to ruin your life by going to Harvard Law School.

[Theresa87]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I have been reading the fine print on LIPP and will be reading the fine print on other school's LRAP programs, consulting all articles on LRAP and PI on TLS, and soon I will be talking to Harvard financial aid to clear up all the "what-ifs."

The biggest issue now is that as a 23 year old who has some PI experience but not PI legal experience, I am unsure about the future as far as buying a house, location, spouse, kids, etc. I guess many that go into law school are in the same boat, but I probably won't be able to make the best informed decision with my current life experiences.

Oh, OP, rest your uneasy head. Just live life and try to make the best choices you can with an eye toward your ultimate life goals. You are hardly going to ruin your life by going to Harvard Law School.

Thank you! That is reassuring. I guess the hours I spent reading anti-Harvard threads on TLS caused some serious doubt haha. I still have a lot to consider before making the final decision. But getting max grant aid (or almost) puts me in a pretty great position.

[Tls2016]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I have been reading the fine print on LIPP and will be reading the fine print on other school's LRAP programs, consulting all articles on LRAP and PI on TLS, and soon I will be talking to Harvard financial aid to clear up all the "what-ifs."

The biggest issue now is that as a 23 year old who has some PI experience but not PI legal experience, I am unsure about the future as far as buying a house, location, spouse, kids, etc. I guess many that go into law school are in the same boat, but I probably won't be able to make the best informed decision with my current life experiences.

Oh, OP, rest your uneasy head. Just live life and try to make the best choices you can with an eye toward your ultimate life goals. You are hardly going to ruin your life by going to Harvard Law School.

Thank you! That is reassuring. I guess the hours I spent reading anti-Harvard threads on TLS caused some serious doubt haha. I still have a lot to consider before making the final decision. But getting max grant aid (or almost) puts me in a pretty great position.

Were those anti Harvard threads dealing with LIPP?
At any rate, no one can predict the future. Make the best decision you can with where you are now. That's the best anyone can do.
You are in a great spot.

[Theresa87]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I have been reading the fine print on LIPP and will be reading the fine print on other school's LRAP programs, consulting all articles on LRAP and PI on TLS, and soon I will be talking to Harvard financial aid to clear up all the "what-ifs."

The biggest issue now is that as a 23 year old who has some PI experience but not PI legal experience, I am unsure about the future as far as buying a house, location, spouse, kids, etc. I guess many that go into law school are in the same boat, but I probably won't be able to make the best informed decision with my current life experiences.

Oh, OP, rest your uneasy head. Just live life and try to make the best choices you can with an eye toward your ultimate life goals. You are hardly going to ruin your life by going to Harvard Law School.

Thank you! That is reassuring. I guess the hours I spent reading anti-Harvard threads on TLS caused some serious doubt haha. I still have a lot to consider before making the final decision. But getting max grant aid (or almost) puts me in a pretty great position.

Were those anti Harvard threads dealing with LIPP?
At any rate, no one can predict the future. Make the best decision you can with where you are now. That's the best anyone can do.
You are in a great spot.

Probably only for those with shaky commitment to PI or someone with RTK at NYU.