Top Law Schools

Schools: UVA ($20,000/year), GULC (no scholly yet), W&L ($35,000/year), W&M ($20,000/year)
Total COA: UVA - $208,000, GULC - $289,000, W&L - $117,000, W&M - $111,000
Savings: I could rustle up about $50K to put towards tuition if I'm willing to wipe out my retirement savings (which seems worth it at the moment).

I'm currently in rural VA but I wouldn't be averse to working in DC or NOVA. Spouse and child will stay home while I commute weekly to school, so I can't go much farther outside this circle of schools. For this reason, W&M is almost definitely out, since it's 3+ hrs away. I know W&L is good, but I feel like I'm closing certain doors if I choose it over UVA, plus they don't have a loan repayment program that I'm aware of. I was impressed when I visited GULC, but I'm really turned off by their scholarship game. I lean toward public interest, but if I end up enjoying some other type of law I would definitely pursue it. 169/3.57, only taken LSAT once.

I can see why UVA is the obvious choice, but I'm dubious about the debt. I don't have much room to negotiate, but I will still ask.

Thanks for your input!

200k+ is a lot of debt. Did you apply to Cornell? I understand that you don't want to uproot your family, but that's a lot of $. There are people who take on that much debt, but it's a huge burden. Did you apply to GW?

Doesn't gtown negotiate? Why not use the scholarship from UVA to get and equal or greater scholarship from gtown? --> Use gtown money as leverage to increase UVA money.

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Dang, really? I've heard of NYU negotiating with Cornell offers. Figured UVA and gtown would be similar.

That's a lot of scratch for UVA, but it is not an objectively bad decision. I'm wondering how much you could move William and Mary, though...if you could get that down more, it might make some sense.

G'town's scholarship process is weird. I don't know how they respond if they haven't yet invited you to join the merit scholarship discussion.

Do you have a plan for paying off 100k or 200k while working a public interest job and taking care of your family? Serious question, have you done the math on what that means?

swampman wrote:Do you have a plan for paying off 100k or 200k while working a public interest job and taking care of your family? Serious question, have you done the math on what that means?

Ooops, I didn't see this. I don't know a ton about UVA's LRAP, but you should generally expect to throw your PI goals out the window if you take $200k in debt. You're going to be a biglaw pursuer for sure.

fliptrip wrote:That's a lot of scratch for UVA, but it is not an objectively bad decision. I'm wondering how much you could move William and Mary, though...if you could get that down more, it might make some sense.

G'town's scholarship process is weird. I don't know how they respond if they haven't yet invited you to join the merit scholarship discussion.

I'd question the logic a bit here about moving W&M too much. W&M has a far cheaper tuition than your average law school, ESPECIALLY for in state students (OP would only be paying around 10k per year in tuition to go there), so i'm skeptical a ton of negotiation will really move them.

To me, this seems like an LSAT retake is the best option here *insert caveat that basically all TLS'ers posters say to retake..though there's a good reason for that*, PARTICULARLY if you want to go the T14 route. A 169 is a hell of a score off a first retake, you could easily bump it up with some concentrated studying.

gsy987 wrote:

fliptrip wrote:That's a lot of scratch for UVA, but it is not an objectively bad decision. I'm wondering how much you could move William and Mary, though...if you could get that down more, it might make some sense.

G'town's scholarship process is weird. I don't know how they respond if they haven't yet invited you to join the merit scholarship discussion.

I'd question the logic a bit here about moving W&M too much. W&M has a far cheaper tuition than your average law school, ESPECIALLY for in state students (OP would only be paying around 10k per year in tuition to go there), so i'm skeptical a ton of negotiation will really move them.

To me, this seems like an LSAT retake is the best option here *insert caveat that basically all TLS'ers posters say to retake..though there's a good reason for that*, PARTICULARLY if you want to go the T14 route. A 169 is a hell of a score off a first retake, you could easily bump it up with some concentrated studying.

Problem is I don't see a retake getting OP much more money at UVA and it doesn't sound like he can go anywhere else. And even if he could T-14's aren't paying much for 3.57 GPAs.

Tiago Splitter wrote:

gsy987 wrote:

fliptrip wrote:That's a lot of scratch for UVA, but it is not an objectively bad decision. I'm wondering how much you could move William and Mary, though...if you could get that down more, it might make some sense.

G'town's scholarship process is weird. I don't know how they respond if they haven't yet invited you to join the merit scholarship discussion.

I'd question the logic a bit here about moving W&M too much. W&M has a far cheaper tuition than your average law school, ESPECIALLY for in state students (OP would only be paying around 10k per year in tuition to go there), so i'm skeptical a ton of negotiation will really move them.

To me, this seems like an LSAT retake is the best option here *insert caveat that basically all TLS'ers posters say to retake..though there's a good reason for that*, PARTICULARLY if you want to go the T14 route. A 169 is a hell of a score off a first retake, you could easily bump it up with some concentrated studying.

Problem is I don't see a retake getting OP much more money at UVA and it doesn't sound like he can go anywhere else. And even if he could T-14's aren't paying much for 3.57 GPAs.

To counter this a little, with a 171/3.56 I had a lot more money coming to me than OP (multiple half to full rides in the T20). Those couple of points can mean a LOT of difference.

A retake couldn't hurt. His plan doesn't sound optimal for anyone.
At least clarify your ambition OP. What sort of PI do you want?

EzraFitz wrote:

Tiago Splitter wrote: Problem is I don't see a retake getting OP much more money at UVA and it doesn't sound like he can go anywhere else. And even if he could T-14's aren't paying much for 3.57 GPAs.

To counter this a little, with a 171/3.56 I had a lot more money coming to me than OP (multiple half to full rides in the T20). Those couple of points can mean a LOT of difference.

Anecdotal Warning: 17X/2.X and I got significant loot at T14s ($$). Get above UVA's 75% and watch the money roll in!

If you want to keep your options open (meaning, you want to have big law as an option), then I would not consider W&M or W&L.

If you want to keep your options open (meaning, you want to have big law as an option), then I would not consider W&M or W&L.

fliptrip wrote:

swampman wrote:Do you have a plan for paying off 100k or 200k while working a public interest job and taking care of your family? Serious question, have you done the math on what that means?

Ooops, I didn't see this. I don't know a ton about UVA's LRAP, but you should generally expect to throw your PI goals out the window if you take $200k in debt. You're going to be a biglaw pursuer for sure.

Why would he have to do biglaw over PI with $200K+ debt? If anything his likelihood of getting canned/forced out/burnt out/whatever from biglaw in 2-3 years (way too damn soon to pay of $200K straight up) is much higher than him losing a PI job that would give him PLSF with UVA's LRAP until he hits $75K.

BruceWayne wrote:

fliptrip wrote:

swampman wrote:Do you have a plan for paying off 100k or 200k while working a public interest job and taking care of your family? Serious question, have you done the math on what that means?

Ooops, I didn't see this. I don't know a ton about UVA's LRAP, but you should generally expect to throw your PI goals out the window if you take $200k in debt. You're going to be a biglaw pursuer for sure.

Why would he have to do biglaw over PI with $200K+ debt? If anything his likelihood of getting canned/forced out/burnt out/whatever from biglaw in 2-3 years (way too damn soon to pay of $200K straight up) is much higher than him losing a PI job that would give him PLSF with UVA's LRAP until he hits $75K.

OP's PI commitment sounds shaky to me and unless you are 100% committed, you're going to make your problem a lot worse by doing PAYE/IBR for several years but not long enough to qualify for the full PSLF. Of course, he doesn't have to prove anything to me. If he can do the 10 years without wavering, then good on him.

Minnietron wrote:

EzraFitz wrote:

Tiago Splitter wrote: Problem is I don't see a retake getting OP much more money at UVA and it doesn't sound like he can go anywhere else. And even if he could T-14's aren't paying much for 3.57 GPAs.

To counter this a little, with a 171/3.56 I had a lot more money coming to me than OP (multiple half to full rides in the T20). Those couple of points can mean a LOT of difference.

Anecdotal Warning: 17X/2.X and I got significant loot at T14s ($$). Get above UVA's 75% and watch the money roll in!

Anecdotal Warning 17X/3.5ish - got heaps of money from at least one mid T14.

UVA LRAP:
http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/public ... orgive.htm

I think UVA used to cover low paid private employment in underserved areas in Virginaia but I think that changed in 2014. (Or maybe I have that backwards.)

OP should check this carefully if he wants to use LRAP.

Does your spouse work?

I don't see how you could justify taking out 200k debt for law school, especially with a family, but that's just me.

I vote on retake - even 3 points could be a big difference.

OP if you do decide to run it back next year make sure to apply to a lot more schools for scholarship negotiation purposes.

fliptrip wrote:That's a lot of scratch for UVA, but it is not an objectively bad decision. I'm wondering how much you could move William and Mary, though...if you could get that down more, it might make some sense.

G'town's scholarship process is weird. I don't know how they respond if they haven't yet invited you to join the merit scholarship discussion.

William and Mary is very, very rarely worth it. I mean, this is the school that has employed up to a fourth of its students in short term school-funded jobs to game the rankings. Maybe it could be worth it if COA was below 50k, and we're dealing with someone like the OP. But even then, I'd be leery.

OP, your best option would be to retake. If you got a 169 you're bright enough to get higher. I know people with your GPA and higher LSATs that got 100k+ there. Waiting a year and retaking, you could get a higher score, which could get that COA down a lot. You could also apply broader to get some negotiating chips from like Duke up to NYU.

Failing that, yes, UVA is by far your best option. Take it.

KissMyAxe wrote:

fliptrip wrote:That's a lot of scratch for UVA, but it is not an objectively bad decision. I'm wondering how much you could move William and Mary, though...if you could get that down more, it might make some sense.

G'town's scholarship process is weird. I don't know how they respond if they haven't yet invited you to join the merit scholarship discussion.

William and Mary is very, very rarely worth it. I mean, this is the school that has employed up to a fourth of its students in short term school-funded jobs to game the rankings. Maybe it could be worth it if COA was below 50k, and we're dealing with someone like the OP. But even then, I'd be leery.

OP, your best option would be to retake. If you got a 169 you're bright enough to get higher. I know people with your GPA and higher LSATs that got 100k+ there. Waiting a year and retaking, you could get a higher score, which could get that COA down a lot. You could also apply broader to get some negotiating chips from like Duke up to NYU.

Failing that, yes, UVA is by far your best option. Take it.

I don't get the argument here, as UVA does the same thing to game rankings by hiring nearly a fifth of it's students in the same short term school-funded jobs. I'll agree that as it stands now, UVA is probably OP's best option, but I think it's a stretch to say W&M is very rarely worth it. If only assessing the distance from OP or biglaw/clerking opportunities, then sure. But how are they less worth it than W&L or any of their peers?

For OP, why even apply to W&M if attending isn't feasible? Unfortunately, W&M is your 2nd best option, much better than the W&L offer and slightly worse than UVA (although it's still hard to say UVA is worth $97,000 more without knowing your goals).

Thanks, everyone. You've given me a lot to think about. To answer some questions, yes, my spouse does work, so my family will be supported while I'm in school. It's just me paying for it that's the problem.

As far as goals, one of the huge draws of law school as an option is that there are so many options for practice. I can't say for sure that I want to defend the indigent or get innocent folks off death row or save the oceans or make a shit ton of money doing litigation. There are some mid-size firms within an hour of where I live now that I think might be appealing, and I know a few local private-practice attorneys that seem pretty content and successful. I have a friend who's encouraging me to study ABC laws for wineries and breweries because there are so few VA attorneys that do that. And of course, there's big law. But I won't be able to decide any of this until I've got a year or so under my belt in school.

If I decided against UVA, I'd probably go with W&L. They're fairly close and well-regarded locally. My one concern is that I'm relegating my future career options to VA, although they do send some graduates to big law/clerkships. If I'm SURE I want to stay local, then it's probably a better choice. But if I want the option of big law/clerkships/PI with a serious impact, UVA seems smarter. Also remember that I do have some personal resources, so I think my overall debt will be less that $200K. I estimate (from online calculators) more like $140-$150K. Still scary, though.

As far as retaking, here's the thing: When I first took the LSAT, I was working full time and parenting (my spouse works weekends). There are no circumstances under which that won't be the case in the future. If I could take a month off before the LSAT and do nothing but study, I'd retake. If they offered a summer session, it'd be doable (I'm a teacher). But alas, it's not the case. It's not like I didn't study before, I spent every damn minute with my nose shoved in the Trainer. I'm just leery about actually being able to improve my score.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

Don't liquidate a retirement account to pay for tuition. You'll take a huge tax hit in the short term and lose a lot of money in the longer term.

You seem to be going to law school with no clear idea at all regarding what you want to do. That is not a good idea.