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Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:15 am
by hopeful94
Hey everyone! So at the end of last week I received my decisions from Columbia Law and Harvard Law. I received a Hamilton Fellowship from Columbia, which will cover my tuition for all three years and is the highest scholarship they give. Harvard gives only need-based aid and I'm ineligible, meaning that I would have to pay full tuition. I am currently based in New York and have lived here my entire life. I am going to law school straight from undergraduate, which I'm also attending in New York. My goal right now is to study public interest but I want the opportunity to explore a lot of different legal fields while in law school. I haven't ruled out political aspirations later on in life, but straight out of law school I'd like to practice/work in New York. What I'm trying to decide is whether I should choose the prestige of the Harvard name or go to Columbia where I would be graduating debt free and with the money I've saved for law school left over. In order to pay for three years at Harvard I would have to take out about $100,000 in loans, and the rest of tuition would be paid for using my savings and with some help from my parents. I'm honestly unsure what the best move would be, especially because I chose money over name for undergraduate. Any/all opinions welcome. I am going to admitted students events at both and trying to find out as much as possible about each before ultimately making my decision.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:16 am
by fliptrip
*looking around* YES! I get to be the first person to tell you to take the Hamilton.
This isn't even close.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:17 am
by Hand
How is this even a question? Take the money at CLS.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:22 am
by Tls2016
hopeful94 wrote:Hey everyone! So at the end of last week I received my decisions from Columbia Law and Harvard Law. I received a Hamilton Fellowship from Columbia, which will cover my tuition for all three years and is the highest scholarship they give. Harvard gives only need-based aid and I'm ineligible, meaning that I would have to pay full tuition. I am currently based in New York and have lived here my entire life. I am going to law school straight from undergraduate, which I'm also attending in New York. My goal right now is to study public interest but I want the opportunity to explore a lot of different legal fields while in law school. I haven't ruled out political aspirations later on in life, but straight out of law school I'd like to practice/work in New York. What I'm trying to decide is whether I should choose the prestige of the Harvard name or go to Columbia where I would be graduating debt free and with the money I've saved for law school left over. In order to pay for three years at Harvard I would have to take out about $100,000 in loans, and the rest of tuition would be paid for using my savings and with some help from my parents. I'm honestly unsure what the best move would be, especially because I chose money over name for undergraduate. Any/all opinions welcome. I am going to admitted students events at both and trying to find out as much as possible about each before ultimately making my dec
ision.
Columbia is a prestigious law school that everyone knows about. To be able to go for free and keep your savings is a fantastic outcome. You won't regret it.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:27 pm
by hopeful94
Columbia it is.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:38 pm
by landshoes
Harvard, only because you should get out of NYC and your family seems rich enough for it not to matter. (I admit to being irrationally biased against Columbia so, you know, grain of salt)
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:30 pm
by hopeful94
landshoes wrote:Harvard, only because you should get out of NYC and your family seems rich enough for it not to matter. (I admit to being irrationally biased against Columbia so, you know, grain of salt)
May I ask why you're biased against them? And the money is left over because I went to undergrad on a full academic scholarship.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:38 pm
by fliptrip
hopeful94 wrote:landshoes wrote:Harvard, only because you should get out of NYC and your family seems rich enough for it not to matter. (I admit to being irrationally biased against Columbia so, you know, grain of salt)
May I ask why you're biased against them? And the money is left over because I went to undergrad on a full academic scholarship.
Hmmmm. Is this money that you have to spend on school? Like if you go to CLS would this just be cash sitting in your bank account?
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:40 pm
by Nebby
CLS
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:50 pm
by Mullens
There are a large number of threads on TLS that cover this choice or a very similar one. I suggest you seek them out and read them to get more perspectives.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:57 pm
by jjjetplane
If you are bright enough to have been awarded the Hamilton, then you are bright enough to know to TAKE the hamilton.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:00 pm
by GreenEggs
hopeful94 wrote: I haven't ruled out political aspirations later on in life,
If that's the case I'd debt finance Harvard. Having student loans is a great narrative. (See Little Marco)
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:20 pm
by eph
Personally I went H and am very happy with the choice but C makes all the sense in the world. I think H is a little less competitive/cutthroat as a necessity. The grading system makes that so. It is there if you want it as in Law Review or all DS's for Wachtell but generally a touch more cooperative/collegial. Congrats... you can not make a wrong decision even if you try.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:28 pm
by rpupkin
eph wrote:Personally I went H and am very happy with the choice but C makes all the sense in the world. I think H is a little less competitive/cutthroat as a necessity. The grading system makes that so. It is there if you want it as in Law Review or all DS's for Wachtell but generally a touch more cooperative/collegial. Congrats... you can not make a wrong decision even if you try.
Oh, yes you can.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:51 pm
by jbagelboy
Columbia without a doubt.
And for what it's worth, HLS definitely has a more competitive culture. The grading system is not a significant factor since grades between the two schools are not that different.
Congratulations on the Hamilton. That's a huge and very rare achievement.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:53 pm
by jbagelboy
DCfilterDC wrote:hopeful94 wrote: I haven't ruled out political aspirations later on in life,
If that's the case I'd debt finance Harvard. Having student loans is a great narrative. (See Little Marco)
What law student comes onto TLS without "ruling out some political aspirations"? This is a terrible reason to choose a school.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:56 pm
by GreenEggs
jbagelboy wrote:DCfilterDC wrote:hopeful94 wrote: I haven't ruled out political aspirations later on in life,
If that's the case I'd debt finance Harvard. Having student loans is a great narrative. (See Little Marco)
What law student comes onto TLS without "ruling out some political aspirations"? This is a terrible reason to choose a school.
I was kidding...
Columbia without a doubt.
And for what it's worth, HLS definitely has a more competitive culture. The grading system is not a significant factor since grades between the two schools are not that different.
Congratulations on the Hamilton. That's a huge and very rare achievement.
I agree with everything, but I definitely do not think CLS grading system is that similar to HLS.
Either way, I think it's abundantly clear to take the Hamilton
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:57 pm
by L’Étranger
I hate absolutes, but there's no justification for not taking Columbia for free over Harvard for not free.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:05 pm
by rpupkin
L’Étranger wrote:I hate absolutes, but there's no justification for not taking Columbia for free over Harvard for not free.
Well. I think the question becomes more interesting if Harvard is offering significant need-based aid. I could certainly see attending a "not free" (but heavily subsidized) HLS versus a Hamilton at CLS. But a Hamilton vs. HLS at sticker (or close to sticker)? Yeah, that question isn't close.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:07 pm
by jbagelboy
DCfilterDC wrote:jbagelboy wrote:DCfilterDC wrote:hopeful94 wrote: I haven't ruled out political aspirations later on in life,
If that's the case I'd debt finance Harvard. Having student loans is a great narrative. (See Little Marco)
What law student comes onto TLS without "ruling out some political aspirations"? This is a terrible reason to choose a school.
I was kidding...
Columbia without a doubt.
And for what it's worth, HLS definitely has a more competitive culture. The grading system is not a significant factor since grades between the two schools are not that different.
Congratulations on the Hamilton. That's a huge and very rare achievement.
I agree with everything, but I definitely do not think CLS grading system is that similar to HLS.
Either way, I think it's abundantly clear to take the Hamilton
Both schools assign four grades. CLS curve assigns them less favorably, but the division between honors and non-honors (roughly top third versus bottom third at both schools) is nearly identical.
It's under review whether CLS will re-letter their grading system from A/A-/B+/B to DS/H/P/LP, but one of the chief arguments against is that the change is not not necessary to bring the two systems in sync.
Eta: please don't quote.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:09 pm
by GreenEggs
jbagelboy wrote:DCfilterDC wrote:
I agree with everything, but I definitely do not think CLS grading system is that similar to HLS.
Both schools assign four grades. CLS curve assigns them less favorably, but the division between honors and non-honors (roughly top third versus bottom third at both schools) is nearly identical.
.
My understanding is that HLS has H/P/LP with no minimum % on the LP (so like the CLS B-), so basically H/P, even taking out the CLS B- you still have A/A-/B+/B, that's four grades to two...
took out the second half sorry
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:17 pm
by L’Étranger
rpupkin wrote:L’Étranger wrote:I hate absolutes, but there's no justification for not taking Columbia for free over Harvard for not free.
Well. I think the question becomes more interesting if Harvard is offering significant need-based aid. I could certainly see attending a "not free" (but heavily subsidized) HLS versus a Hamilton at CLS. But a Hamilton vs. HLS at sticker (or close to sticker)? Yeah, that question isn't close.
Anything above 5k/year at H, it's got to be the Hamilton.
Whatever minuscule unicorn opportunities might be lost by going to C are so heavily outweighed by $$$.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:17 pm
by jbagelboy
You're right that the letters do not correspond identically, which is why I said the CLS curve looks less favorable in the distribution of grades, but the principle is that the % of students in honors range is designed to be the same. CLS professors refer to A-range grades as "honors" as opposed to B-range grades, and the honors cutoff after 1L year is nearly identical to the distribution of GPA points at HLS (on a 4.0 scale, H/DS ratio to P/LP), ect. One technical difference is actually that CLS does not calculate or report GPAs on a numeric scale, whereas HLS does; however, this makes little practical difference since the handful of firms and federal judges that care to investigate a student's grades at H or C have learned both systems and count accordingly.
Tl;dr its not that they are the same, but that they are similar enough that it makes no actual difference in creating a campus culture
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:18 pm
by hopeful94
fliptrip wrote:hopeful94 wrote:landshoes wrote:Harvard, only because you should get out of NYC and your family seems rich enough for it not to matter. (I admit to being irrationally biased against Columbia so, you know, grain of salt)
May I ask why you're biased against them? And the money is left over because I went to undergrad on a full academic scholarship.
Hmmmm. Is this money that you have to spend on school? Like if you go to CLS would this just be cash sitting in your bank account?
Somewhat of a mix of both. Leftover money would partially be in my bank account and partially remain in a 529 for my future children.
Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:20 pm
by hopeful94
Is it safe to say that the general consensus is Hamilton over the other big H?