Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings Forum

[tezzeret]

After reading this thread, I don't even feel like going to ASD tomorrow. I really feel like going ahead with a retake as the realist in me feels utterly disgusted with reality. I feel like I'm lying to myself thinking BLS is good even with a full ride. I feel like it's a trajectory for mediocrity for the majority of graduates. Damn you TLS, LST, and reality.

[etfc500]

from an article on law.com re: the rankings

Brooklyn Law School had one of the largest drops, falling 19 spots from No. 78 to No 97. U.S. News reported significant drops in the school’s graduate employment rates—something dean Nicholas Allard said the school’s internal figures don’t bear out. Allard said he has requested a meeting with U.S. News in order to determine why the school’s data doesn’t match up.

“The truth is that we really don’t know why our ranking declined because it’s so opaque,” Allard said of the rankings. “Rankings go up and rankings go down. Obviously we would prefer to be up, but we know that we’re not suddenly a weaker school. If anything, we’re the same school or stronger.”

Allard said applications to the school are currently up 15 percent compared to this time last year.

The rankings methodology was unchanged this year, except that post-graduate employment rates were gathered 10 months after graduation instead of nine months, in accordance with recent changes to the American Bar Association’s jobs reporting requirements.

Peer assessments by practitioners and other legal educators account for 40 percent of a law school’s ranking. Selectivity, including median LSAT and undergraduate grade-point averages and acceptance rates, account for another 25 percent. Job placement accounts for 20 percent and faculty resources the remaining 15 percent.

U.S. News has plenty of critics who claim the rankings force schools to make decision with an eye to the rankings rather than what is best for students. Moreover, the rankings create false distinctions between schools, they argue.

University of Chicago law professor Brian Leiter called the rankings “nonsense” on his popular blog Brian Leiter’s Law School Reports. The rankings’ “reign of terror” has been “a disaster for legal education,” he wrote.

The rankings still influence perspective law students, said Indiana dean Parrish, but less so than in the past.



Read more: http://www.law.com/sites/articles/2016/ ... z435Zphkta

[etfc500]

After reading this thread, I don't even feel like going to ASD tomorrow.

Maybe it's still worth it to go and to get a first hand perspective from the ASD program and from talking to other prospective and current students.

[baal hadad]

TLSers don't tell people to "retake" because they have a superiority complex. They advise prospective law students to retake because it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options. You have to be at the very top of your class to even be considered by a large firm, let alone be guaranteed a position.

I'm going to use the same level(or lack of) of reasoning you've used:
Many people DO tell ppl to "retake" because they are emotionally insecure and/or have superiority complex. They like to offer this "advise" over and over again (w/o consideration of any other relative/individual factors) because it allows them to feel better about themselves. An example would be: "it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options." Classic example of being presumptuous, with a hint of idiocy.

Attempting to dissuade someone from paying a ton of money for a law school, which leaves tons of graduates un- or underemployed, does not make people feel better about themselves.
I suggest you read the following articles: http://college.usatoday.com/2015/07/17/ ... on-refund/
http://abovethelaw.com/2015/06/this-is- ... tatistics/
I, for one, genuinely want to give future law students good advice about particular schools. It is imperative to read schools' employment statistics before committing to a particular school.
Do you mind sharing how you will be financing your legal education? It makes a huge difference.

How about BLS with a full scholarship, top 80% stip? Does that change things?

No. If you only take out loans for nyc cost of living Brooklyn is STILL not worth it

Add a living stipend. How about now?

$10k? Still no

[baal hadad]

After reading this thread, I don't even feel like going to ASD tomorrow. I really feel like going ahead with a retake as the realist in me feels utterly disgusted with reality. I feel like I'm lying to myself thinking BLS is good even with a full ride. I feel like it's a trajectory for mediocrity for the majority of graduates. Damn you TLS, LST, and reality.

I mean if you have looked at lst and you don't like what you see that's about all you need to know really

Going to visit the school is not gonna change the employment stats tho they might try to spin em/blow smoke up your ass

[reasonable_man]

I have quite a few friends and know several attorneys that graduated from BLS over the years. I'm also in a pretty good position to judge employability of grads in the NY legal market. So I'll say this:

Going to BLS is only "ok" if you are totally ok and prepared for the strong possibility that you will have little to no option as to what type of law you practice. There is an excellent chance you will land a job in a run of the mill practice area in a small to mid-sized firm. You will not have the option of being picky. You will not be able to practice human rights law at the Hauge or represent whales in federal court seeking protection under some made up law. You will not be an IP lawyer (unless you are a STEM person and pass the parent bar). You will, however, most likely be able to land a job in some type of insurance defense or residential real estate or plaintiff side personal injury, or maybe even a PD or prosecutor at one of the non-Manhattan DAs offices. Your salary, in any of the aforementioned will range from 40 to 80k (and more likely than not will be in the range of 45 to 75k).

If what I just described is cool and you're into it - go to BLS. Have a blast. If it's not - and what I just described sounds awful, please rethink what you're planning on doing.

[landshoes]

Are people from BLS really competitive at DA and PD offices in NYC? Huh. I didn't think that was the case, at least not the PDs. I feel like people consider those spots easy or not competitive but that's not what my friends in crim have reported at all. They all had to move out of NYC to get jobs.

[landshoes]

(Obviously those employers take more into account than just schools, but I'd take a look at the DA / PD hiring threads here for an idea of how competitive these jobs are. They're not fallbacks.)

[reasonable_man]

(Obviously those employers take more into account than just schools, but I'd take a look at the DA / PD hiring threads here for an idea of how competitive these jobs are. They're not fallbacks.)

You are correct. BLS students have as good of a shot as any at landing one of those jobs (outside Manhattan - as I said above). But those jobs are still very competitive. My statement was meant more along the lines of what I said about not having s choice in the matter. Meaning, you may go to BLS dead set on being a PD and wind up having to do personal injury. I guess what I'm saying is that a low paying law job of some sort will likely be available - but BLS grads won't be in a position to be picky about it.

[landshoes]

OK, just wanted to clarify, thanks!

[arose928]

Just read this and thought it was funny:

Students would have to be “wearing blinders” not to see that a “goodly number of law school graduates toil (perhaps part time) in drudgery or have less than hugely successful careers,” Justice Melvin L. Schweitzer of New York Supreme Court wrote in 2012, dismissing a lawsuit by nine former students against New York Law School.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/07/busin ... -data.html

[reasonable_man]

Yea.. Those lawsuits didn't go so well. There is at least one still pending against Thomas Jeff Law in Cali. I heard recently it was actually going to trial. We'll see what happens there. In any event, those cases were from the days when law schools REALLY cooked the books. Can't imagine someone even trying to make the claim now. The scam is too well known.

[arose928]

Yea.. Those lawsuits didn't go so well. There is at least one still pending against Thomas Jeff Law in Cali. I heard recently it was actually going to trial. We'll see what happens there. In any event, those cases were from the days when law schools REALLY cooked the books. Can't imagine someone even trying to make the claim now. The scam is too well known.

You'd think, and yet people still go. But the article that quote is from is about the suit in Cali against Thomas Jefferson, the judge is letting it go forward.

[Johann]

i went to a law school that similarly dropped 30-40 spots from the time i paid deposit to when i graduated. it didnt really matter that much in that the top 5-10% of kids still had big law opportunities and the remainder had to hustle their asses off just to get legal jobs. If you're getting cold feet over a meaningless ranking by an arbitrary evaluator (aka not an employer), then you probably should have some concerns whether the school is 75 or 100.

[Nebby]

After 14 the rankings don't matter.

- Someone not attending a T14.

Someone trying to transfer to a T14

[riku33090]

*See Below

[riku33090]

BLS 2L here.

I can offer my own opinions of BLS but I rather just give OP some numbers.

1. There are about 345 people in my class. I know for sure at least 30 have BigLaw jobs secured either through OCI or mass-mailing. Keep in mind that that's just the people that I know, could be more.

2. There are about 50 firms (BigLaw and MidLaw) that come for OCI. From what i can remember, here is a list of vault ranked firms: Skadden, DPW, STB, Cleary, Weil, Paul Weiss, Debvoise, Ropes, A&P, OMM, Clifford, CWT, Bakers, Hogan, Goodwin, Proskauer, Milbank, FF, Allen&Overy, Orrick, Cahill, Willikie, Winston, Greenburg, Pillsbury, Kaye Scholer, Bryan Cave, Chadbourne, Venable, Arent Fox, Hughes Hubbard, Bracewell, Kramer, Duane Morris, Blank Rome.

Midlaw: Carter Ledyard & Milburn, Olshan Frome Wolosky, Pryor Cashman, Cullen Dykman.

3. Also some In-house: PwC, BDO, etc.

4. Based on people i know and things i heard.
Top 10% with great interviewing skills and/or solid backgrounds --> I would say 80% getting BigLaw.
Top 15% with great interviewing skills and/or solid backgrounds --> 40% Biglaw, 80% Midlaw and IH
Top 20% with great interviewing skills and/or solid backgrounds ---> 10-20% Biglaw, 60% Midlaw and IH.

[itsallgood_man]

I always find it weird to see people who are attorneys warning us about law school in general. Most people on here are people applying to law school - everyone should be wary of the motives of attorneys coming on here spewing negative comments. Also, we will never know for sure about those people who claim they "know the employment market" or that we should accept that their opinions carry a lot of weight. For all we know, they could be "losers" or miserably people (with their life in general for whatever reason) who are worst off than you even with a law degree from a t14, so tread lightly when reading those opinions. Only you have control of your own future, and if you hustle the right way, you can actually get what you want.

[BasilHallward]

BLS 2L here.

I can offer my own opinions of BLS but I rather just give OP some numbers.

1. There are about 345 people in my class. I know for sure at least 30 have BigLaw jobs secured either through OCI or mass-mailing. Keep in mind that that's just the people that I know, could be more.

2. There are about 50 firms (BigLaw and MidLaw) that come for OCI. From what i can remember, here is a list of vault ranked firms: Skadden, DPW, STB, Cleary, Weil, Paul Weiss, Debvoise, Ropes, A&P, OMM, Clifford, CWT, Bakers, Hogan, Goodwin, Proskauer, Milbank, FF, Allen&Overy, Orrick, Cahill, Willikie, Winston, Greenburg, Pillsbury, Kaye Scholer, Bryan Cave, Chadbourne, Venable, Arent Fox, Hughes Hubbard, Bracewell, Kramer, Duane Morris, Blank Rome.

Midlaw: Carter Ledyard & Milburn, Olshan Frome Wolosky, Pryor Cashman, Cullen Dykman.

3. Also some In-house: PwC, BDO, etc.

4. Based on people i know and things i heard.
Top 10% with great interviewing skills and/or solid backgrounds --> I would say 80% getting BigLaw.
Top 15% with great interviewing skills and/or solid backgrounds --> 40% Biglaw, 80% Midlaw and IH
Top 20% with great interviewing skills and/or solid backgrounds ---> 10-20% Biglaw, 60% Midlaw and IH.

Yeah, that's a crapshoot.

[sublimation]

I always find it weird to see people who are attorneys warning us about law school in general. Most people on here are people applying to law school - everyone should be wary of the motives of attorneys coming on here spewing negative comments. Also, we will never know for sure about those people who claim they "know the employment market" or that we should accept that their opinions carry a lot of weight. For all we know, they could be "losers" or miserably people (with their life in general for whatever reason) who are worst off than you even with a law degree from a t14, so tread lightly when reading those opinions. Only you have control of your own future, and if you hustle the right way, you can actually get what you want.

When it comes to legal employment-

People whose opinion I trust the most:

• Attorneys who have graduated most recently to today
• Attorneys who are opinionated enough to post on online media

People whose opinion means very little:

• Attorneys who graduated before this century
• Current law students

People whose opinions mean nothing:

• 0Ls

[reasonable_man]

I always find it weird to see people who are attorneys warning us about law school in general. Most people on here are people applying to law school - everyone should be wary of the motives of attorneys coming on here spewing negative comments. Also, we will never know for sure about those people who claim they "know the employment market" or that we should accept that their opinions carry a lot of weight. For all we know, they could be "losers" or miserably people (with their life in general for whatever reason) who are worst off than you even with a law degree from a t14, so tread lightly when reading those opinions. Only you have control of your own future, and if you hustle the right way, you can actually get what you want.

This might be the dumbest shit I've ever read. You truly are the shining example of the perfect snowflake carried in on the back of a unicorn.

Wow... Just wow... So what's the theory here... The other attorneys on here and myself are what, discouraging you from going to law school because you're just too brilliant and we don't want you coming along to steal our jobs? We're limiting competition? What's the motivation?

Wow. Just wow.

[Tls2016]

You realize that a judge in dismissing a case against this very law school said that students had to seek out other sources of data and not just rely on a number from the law school (because the data from the school should have made students suspicious.)Students have to look into employment statistics available and actually understand what they mean.

It is your responsibility as a student consumer to understand the employment data, the debt you will undertake and look carefully for more information.

That means understanding the bimodal nature of law salaries, the fact that not all firms off 100+ people are paying high six figure and that only the extreme top of the class has a shot at a biglaw job or clerkship.

You also need to understand the mandatory curve and how that means the number of As is set before you walk in the door no matter how close the exams might be.

You should understand the number of students that consistently lose "scholarships" which are really just one year discounts that the system is intentionally designed to be lost each year so they can be passed on to the next class.

People posting here are trying to make sure you realize that the onus is on you. The data is available. There are many ways to get information.

Going in blindly trusting the school on employment numbers is so foolish a judge (actually two judges( couldn't be convinced that college educated students would do it. The employment numbers and salaries reported were so obviously false that students should know to look for more information.

https://www.brooklaw.edu/newsandevents/ ... 243BE.ashx

[Tls2016]

Yea.. Those lawsuits didn't go so well. There is at least one still pending against Thomas Jeff Law in Cali. I heard recently it was actually going to trial. We'll see what happens there. In any event, those cases were from the days when law schools REALLY cooked the books. Can't imagine someone even trying to make the claim now. The scam is too well known.

Yeah, they cooked the books so much that no judge could be convinced that even naive 0Ls would believe it.

Last I looked BLS was still touting something like a 90% employment rating with the ABA disclosure fairly hidden. They fail to mention that their dishonesty was part of th reason the disclosure became mandatory. But they still don't disclose it well.

[reasonable_man]

It's funny I guess because I was there for it. But back in 08' when things were really unraveling and the notion that there existed this systemic "law school scam" sort of came about; BLS, NYLS, Hofstra, Seton Hall and SJU Were sort of the poster children for the movement. The dean of BLS' Career Services at the time, Joan King, used to get publicly excoriated. The things that were said about her on forums (not just here) were brutal. Yet, 8 years later, the debate about how truly sinister these schools (BLS in particular) are in their presentation of employment data remains an actual topic of discussion. Somehow, people are still fooled.

I'm not sure if the numbers in the post that name the firm's showing up for OCI are supposed to be positive or not. So maybe that's an indicator that the post is Fairly objective. But when I look at those numbers, I don't think "wow that's good." I think, what about 265 future grads not in the top 20%. How are they doing? Then I think about how little separates a student that lands in the top 20% and the top 35% and I think - wow that's rough.

I stand by my statements. BLS is only an acceptable option if you attend with the understanding that post grad employment options will most likely be extremely limited, if any, and starting salary in the 45 to 75k range is not a problem.

[Tls2016]

https://www.brooklaw.edu/careers/employ ... isclosures?

It's right here. In bold they say 90% of people seeking employment have jobs according to ABA standards. Then they link to the chart of ABA required disclosures without explaining any of it. I wonder how many people have even looked at the disclosures even though a judge thinks they should be seeking all available information.

Its up to the student to understand that doesn't mean 90% of the class is working as a lawyer.

As for biglaw, the number of people in small 2-10 person firms is 43 people compared to the 26 in firms over 500.
The 74 in industry could be baristas as far as I know.

And they hired 36 grads in short term positions at the law school to boost their statistics.