Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings Forum

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sadie T.

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by sadie T. » Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:42 am

Biglaw1990 wrote:
etfc737 wrote:
TLSers don't tell people to "retake" because they have a superiority complex. They advise prospective law students to retake because it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options. You have to be at the very top of your class to even be considered by a large firm, let alone be guaranteed a position.
I'm going to use the same level(or lack of) of reasoning you've used:
Many people DO tell ppl to "retake" because they are emotionally insecure and/or have superiority complex. They like to offer this "advise" over and over again (w/o consideration of any other relative/individual factors) because it allows them to feel better about themselves. An example would be: "it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options." Classic example of being presumptuous, with a hint of idiocy.
Attempting to dissuade someone from paying a ton of money for a law school, which leaves tons of graduates un- or underemployed, does not make people feel better about themselves.
I suggest you read the following articles: http://college.usatoday.com/2015/07/17/ ... on-refund/
http://abovethelaw.com/2015/06/this-is- ... tatistics/
I, for one, genuinely want to give future law students good advice about particular schools. It is imperative to read schools' employment statistics before committing to a particular school.
Do you mind sharing how you will be financing your legal education? It makes a huge difference.
How about BLS with a full scholarship, top 80% stip? Does that change things?

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Post by Biglaw1990 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:20 am

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by Tls2016 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:33 am

sadie T. wrote:
Biglaw1990 wrote:
etfc737 wrote:
TLSers don't tell people to "retake" because they have a superiority complex. They advise prospective law students to retake because it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options. You have to be at the very top of your class to even be considered by a large firm, let alone be guaranteed a position.
I'm going to use the same level(or lack of) of reasoning you've used:
Many people DO tell ppl to "retake" because they are emotionally insecure and/or have superiority complex. They like to offer this "advise" over and over again (w/o consideration of any other relative/individual factors) because it allows them to feel better about themselves. An example would be: "it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options." Classic example of being presumptuous, with a hint of idiocy.
Attempting to dissuade someone from paying a ton of money for a law school, which leaves tons of graduates un- or underemployed, does not make people feel better about themselves.
I suggest you read the following articles: http://college.usatoday.com/2015/07/17/ ... on-refund/
http://abovethelaw.com/2015/06/this-is- ... tatistics/
I, for one, genuinely want to give future law students good advice about particular schools. It is imperative to read schools' employment statistics before committing to a particular school.
Do you mind sharing how you will be financing your legal education? It makes a huge difference.
How about BLS with a full scholarship, top 80% stip? Does that change things?
Negotiate to get rid of the stipulation even if it seems easy to meet. A scholarship with a stipulation is not a true scholarship.
If you are ok with maybe never actually practicing law and you aren't going into debt to go, you are investing 3 years. Could you spend that time in a better way?
What are your other options?
If you do go focus on anything that will give you practical
skills and network as much as possible.


sadie T.

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by sadie T. » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:52 pm

Biglaw1990 wrote:
sadie T. wrote:
Biglaw1990 wrote:
etfc737 wrote:
TLSers don't tell people to "retake" because they have a superiority complex. They advise prospective law students to retake because it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options. You have to be at the very top of your class to even be considered by a large firm, let alone be guaranteed a position.
I'm going to use the same level(or lack of) of reasoning you've used:
Many people DO tell ppl to "retake" because they are emotionally insecure and/or have superiority complex. They like to offer this "advise" over and over again (w/o consideration of any other relative/individual factors) because it allows them to feel better about themselves. An example would be: "it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options." Classic example of being presumptuous, with a hint of idiocy.
Attempting to dissuade someone from paying a ton of money for a law school, which leaves tons of graduates un- or underemployed, does not make people feel better about themselves.
I suggest you read the following articles: http://college.usatoday.com/2015/07/17/ ... on-refund/
http://abovethelaw.com/2015/06/this-is- ... tatistics/
I, for one, genuinely want to give future law students good advice about particular schools. It is imperative to read schools' employment statistics before committing to a particular school.
Do you mind sharing how you will be financing your legal education? It makes a huge difference.
How about BLS with a full scholarship, top 80% stip? Does that change things?
It depends on your career goals. If you want Biglaw, then it does not make sense. On the other hand, if you are comfortable with opening your own personal injury/criminal defense firm, then you can go for it. But your options are severely limited at BLS. As previous posters mentioned, nearly half of all students cannot find legal jobs. Many of the lucky ones who do find full-time legal positions make under 50k, and many accept document review positions that pay 12-15 an hour. You just need to be aware that the odds are not in your favor. Did you apply to Fordham, Cornell and Georgetown? With a 3.5/167, you should have much better options.
http://mylsn.info/uvpfy6/
I don't necessarily want Biglaw, but if it happened I wouldn't turn it down. Though I do think, that at 31 (time of graduation) and a family either on the way or underway, Biglaw may not be a smart option. I realize that job prospects out of BLS are not great. Staring at six figures of debt to roll the dice isn't a great prospect either. I have offers from BC and WashU, waiting to hear from BU, Vandy, GULC, USC, UCLA and UT. I don't anticipate hearing much about money from either of those schools except BU. I didn't apply to Fordham, though I am starting to regret that now. Would BC/BU vs Fordham essentially the same deal in the end?

I have a few connections in the NYC area, would be able to keep my part-time bartending job, and would minimize debt due to the scholarship.

I will rely on loans and my SO to finance rent and other expenses. Say 60k of debt in the end for BLS. Do you think I can negotiate for a living stipend?

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Biglaw1990

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Post by Biglaw1990 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:47 pm

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sadie T.

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by sadie T. » Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:59 pm

BC/BU and Fordham are peers, but Fordham is better for NYC. Although Fordham is not a T14, NYC firms view Fordham as a great school. Even Fordham students have trouble finding great jobs ITE. Top 20/25% does really well, but the rest of the class doesn't do as well. Do you want to stay in NYC? That makes all of the difference. Also, I know you probably don't want to hear the word, "retake," but 170+ will make a huge difference in terms of options. I scored a 167 in October and took December and got a 170. You can do it! It's a pain to have to study more and retake, but you can increase your chances of getting into top schools and getting a ton of scholarship money.[/quote]

Unfortunately, this is the year for me, so I will make the best of what I have, try to negotiate scholarships as much as possible, and not look back. I don't have the opportunity to retake, even though I do realize that that is the ideal solution.

I'm not locked in on NYC, though it seems if I went to BLS, I would need to be okay with living here for the rest of my life. At this rate, I will be overpaying for a walk-up shoebox apartment for far too long. I am happy to move elsewhere, but don't want to be totally locked into a region just because I went to a school in that region. Would love to attend Vandy, with lower COL and laid back feel of the South, but don't know how that would work if I ever decided to head back to the Mid-Atlantic or New England. Same thing with Texas and WashU.

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by jd677242 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:53 pm

Although the new ranking is scary BLS is still by far your best option in comparison to Cardozo, SJU, and SUNY Buffalo (in my opinion and if those are your options). Many students do go into big law from BLS (I think you have decent chances within the top 20% of your class I've heard I'm not sure how true this is..) and it has a great alumni base and location for the NYC/BK job markets. If you do well in your first year, you can always transfer out as I'm planning to do.

BTW I'm a current 1L at BLS in top 5% planning to transfer out for Fall 2016

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by BigZuck » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:19 pm

seashell.economy wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
etfc737 wrote:
TLSers don't tell people to "retake" because they have a superiority complex. They advise prospective law students to retake because it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options. You have to be at the very top of your class to even be considered by a large firm, let alone be guaranteed a position.
I'm going to use the same level(or lack of) of reasoning you've used:
Many people DO tell ppl to "retake" because they are emotionally insecure and/or have superiority complex. They like to offer this "advise" over and over again (w/o consideration of any other relative/individual factors) because it allows them to feel better about themselves. An example would be: "it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options." Classic example of being presumptuous, with a hint of idiocy.
I read a lot of TLS and have done so for years and I can't think of a single poster who fits this description. You said you know of many, can you link to a single post that embodies this mentality? biglaw1990's post certainly doesn't.
The fact that you were the first person to respond to this post that explicitly asked for BLS students demonstrates a superiority complex. This post wasn't for you, yet you jumped on it to chime in to grace everyone with your wisdom.
Huh?

The OP asked a question, I answered it (and gave a correct answer) in a way that was direct and helpful. How does that reflect a superiority complex and how is the thread not "for me"?

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by BigZuck » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:23 pm

jd677242 wrote:Although the new ranking is scary BLS is still by far your best option in comparison to Cardozo, SJU, and SUNY Buffalo (in my opinion and if those are your options). Many students do go into big law from BLS (I think you have decent chances within the top 20% of your class I've heard I'm not sure how true this is..) and it has a great alumni base and location for the NYC/BK job markets. If you do well in your first year, you can always transfer out as I'm planning to do.

BTW I'm a current 1L at BLS in top 5% planning to transfer out for Fall 2016
Many students do not go into big law from BLS, that is patently untrue

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Post by Biglaw1990 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:39 pm

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by landshoes » Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:12 pm

sadie T. wrote:
Biglaw1990 wrote:
sadie T. wrote:
Biglaw1990 wrote:
etfc737 wrote:
TLSers don't tell people to "retake" because they have a superiority complex. They advise prospective law students to retake because it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options. You have to be at the very top of your class to even be considered by a large firm, let alone be guaranteed a position.
I'm going to use the same level(or lack of) of reasoning you've used:
Many people DO tell ppl to "retake" because they are emotionally insecure and/or have superiority complex. They like to offer this "advise" over and over again (w/o consideration of any other relative/individual factors) because it allows them to feel better about themselves. An example would be: "it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options." Classic example of being presumptuous, with a hint of idiocy.
Attempting to dissuade someone from paying a ton of money for a law school, which leaves tons of graduates un- or underemployed, does not make people feel better about themselves.
I suggest you read the following articles: http://college.usatoday.com/2015/07/17/ ... on-refund/
http://abovethelaw.com/2015/06/this-is- ... tatistics/
I, for one, genuinely want to give future law students good advice about particular schools. It is imperative to read schools' employment statistics before committing to a particular school.
Do you mind sharing how you will be financing your legal education? It makes a huge difference.
How about BLS with a full scholarship, top 80% stip? Does that change things?
It depends on your career goals. If you want Biglaw, then it does not make sense. On the other hand, if you are comfortable with opening your own personal injury/criminal defense firm, then you can go for it. But your options are severely limited at BLS. As previous posters mentioned, nearly half of all students cannot find legal jobs. Many of the lucky ones who do find full-time legal positions make under 50k, and many accept document review positions that pay 12-15 an hour. You just need to be aware that the odds are not in your favor. Did you apply to Fordham, Cornell and Georgetown? With a 3.5/167, you should have much better options.
http://mylsn.info/uvpfy6/
I don't necessarily want Biglaw, but if it happened I wouldn't turn it down. Though I do think, that at 31 (time of graduation) and a family either on the way or underway, Biglaw may not be a smart option. I realize that job prospects out of BLS are not great. Staring at six figures of debt to roll the dice isn't a great prospect either. I have offers from BC and WashU, waiting to hear from BU, Vandy, GULC, USC, UCLA and UT. I don't anticipate hearing much about money from either of those schools except BU. I didn't apply to Fordham, though I am starting to regret that now. Would BC/BU vs Fordham essentially the same deal in the end?

I have a few connections in the NYC area, would be able to keep my part-time bartending job, and would minimize debt due to the scholarship.

I will rely on loans and my SO to finance rent and other expenses. Say 60k of debt in the end for BLS. Do you think I can negotiate for a living stipend?
It's a lot easier to finance a family on a big law salary.

I'm not sure why so many women think it's easier to have a family with less money and fewer options!

Look, this isn't "your year: just because you think you're getting old. 28 isn't old. Set yourself and your kid(s) up for a better life if you can, and don't worry about your boyfriend/family/thought that you're too old.

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by elendinel » Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:24 pm

From what I hear the dean of BLS doesn't have much to say about why BLS would have slipped 19 places, so it's hard to tell what the heck happened, and what it means for students going to BLS.

I think if you're not looking for biglaw, want to stay in NYC, and are getting a free ride, it's still an okay choice. You're going to need to be even higher in your class to do well (I guess now we're talking 5-10% instead of 20%, like it was before), I'm guessing, but there are worse schools in the NYC area, and especially if you want to work in public service in NYC, it'll still be a good choice out of the schools you've applied to. Work here two years and then become a lateral in your preferred city. Not ideal, but not a nightmare, either.

I think if any of those three things aren't true, either go to GULC/UCLA, go to the top-ranked school in the city you do want to stay in and shoot for a regional advantage, or (if none of the schools are in the city you want to end up in, you don't know where you want to end up, you want six-figures, and/or you don't get into GULC/UCLA), retake the LSAT and try again next year. Seriously. Your/your spouse's biological clock should be irrelevant to this equation. There is way too much money and time riding on all this to try to chance a transfer/chance banking on top 10% to get into biglaw/top 20% for a job period.

I would not go to BLS without a full ride (and I wouldn't hold your breath on a housing stipend), but with the rankings being what they are, you can probably haggle for a free ride if you got into some better schools for which it'd be worth losing out on a seat deposit. I would only worry about the 80% stipulation if BLS was not a safety school for you.

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by landshoes » Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:50 pm

they have a 10k stipend available.

The stipulation is bullshit though. Don't let them get away with trapping you at a shitty rank at a shitty school.

(Turned down a scholly & stipend at BLS, best decision I ever made)

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by Buddha180 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:21 am

So what do we make of this drop? What caused it? Should we actually be worried?

I see this falling as a trend. St. Johns is the only one i see of the bunch that is actually improving. Anyone else get that email from BLS last night about all their achievements? It seems perfectly timed with the release of the USWR rank drop. Damage control maybe?

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by sublime » Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:44 am

..

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by reasonable_man » Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:52 am

Can't believe it took me so long to get on board with this thread...

Watching this unfold may impact by billables for the day...

Here is some fuel to start the morning...


BLS has always been a terrible option. Its always been extremely expensive and even back in 2005 and forward it was identified as a one of the worst offenders of the law school scam. The school admits a large incoming class and cannot place the bulk of its graduates in high paying jobs (certainly none worth taking on 200k+ in debt). The reality is that students at BLS have always competed for the same jobs as those at Hofstra, SJU and NYLS. They just pretended that they were more akin to Fordham because the rankings were propped up by false employment data. Now thats all gone and the school is exposed for what it is... a third-rate mill. Unless the administration seriously cooks the books this year (which they very well might), the school will land in the +100 world where it belongs next year.

Graduates from BLS work, primarily, in insurance defense, personal injury, small firms or non-legal jobs. The starting salaries in these fields range from 45 to 75k (generally). If you don't like that likely outcome, don't go to BLS.

And if you drill down BLS placement at NLJ 350 firms, you're going to find a lot of BLS grads actually go to "fake" biglaw firms like Wilson Elser, etc.

For the record, I'm not an elitist. I'm a realist. I did not attend a T14 and I don't work in biglaw. But I have been practicing law in NY for over 8 years and am in a pretty good position to judge and understand the legal market that BLS operates in.

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by bnssweeney » Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:15 am

reasonable_man wrote:Can't believe it took me so long to get on board with this thread...

Watching this unfold may impact by billables for the day...

Here is some fuel to start the morning...


BLS has always been a terrible option. Its always been extremely expensive and even back in 2005 and forward it was identified as a one of the worst offenders of the law school scam. The school admits a large incoming class and cannot place the bulk of its graduates in high paying jobs (certainly none worth taking on 200k+ in debt). The reality is that students at BLS have always competed for the same jobs as those at Hofstra, SJU and NYLS. They just pretended that they were more akin to Fordham because the rankings were propped up by false employment data. Now thats all gone and the school is exposed for what it is... a third-rate mill. Unless the administration seriously cooks the books this year (which they very well might), the school will land in the +100 world where it belongs next year.

Graduates from BLS work, primarily, in insurance defense, personal injury, small firms or non-legal jobs. The starting salaries in these fields range from 45 to 75k (generally). If you don't like that likely outcome, don't go to BLS.

And if you drill down BLS placement at NLJ 350 firms, you're going to find a lot of BLS grads actually go to "fake" biglaw firms like Wilson Elser, etc.

For the record, I'm not an elitist. I'm a realist. I did not attend a T14 and I don't work in biglaw. But I have been practicing law in NY for over 8 years and am in a pretty good position to judge and understand the legal market that BLS operates in.
Can you explain what you mean by "fake" biglaw?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I really want to know what you mean

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by reasonable_man » Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:42 am

Sure. Fake big law firms are firms that, size-wise, qualify as big law because they have several hundred employees and multiple offices around the country. However, these firms' business is comprised primarily (not exclusively) of insurance carriers that send them cases to defend. Their billing rates for this insurance work is a fraction of a normal billing rate. As a result, the compensation paid to attorneys is significantly less than a true "big law" firm with a private client base paying much higher hourly rates.

Examples of fake big law:
- Wilson Elser (WEMED)
- Lewis Brisbois
- goldberg segalla


There are dozens more like these that are "big" and on the NLJ250 list (and therefore count as landing a grad in "big law"), but it's a fiction because starting salaries are 1/2 of what a traditional big law firm pays. To be clear, I'm not knocking any of those firms - some excellent lawyers work for them, but the compensation offered is substantially less than a traditional big law firm.

If you drill deep enough, you'll find that many of BLS' "big law" placements are actually grads working for fake big law. Not that that's a bad thing - but they aren't earning big law money (or even close to it).

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by baal hadad » Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:00 pm

sadie T. wrote:
Biglaw1990 wrote:
etfc737 wrote:
TLSers don't tell people to "retake" because they have a superiority complex. They advise prospective law students to retake because it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options. You have to be at the very top of your class to even be considered by a large firm, let alone be guaranteed a position.
I'm going to use the same level(or lack of) of reasoning you've used:
Many people DO tell ppl to "retake" because they are emotionally insecure and/or have superiority complex. They like to offer this "advise" over and over again (w/o consideration of any other relative/individual factors) because it allows them to feel better about themselves. An example would be: "it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options." Classic example of being presumptuous, with a hint of idiocy.
Attempting to dissuade someone from paying a ton of money for a law school, which leaves tons of graduates un- or underemployed, does not make people feel better about themselves.
I suggest you read the following articles: http://college.usatoday.com/2015/07/17/ ... on-refund/
http://abovethelaw.com/2015/06/this-is- ... tatistics/
I, for one, genuinely want to give future law students good advice about particular schools. It is imperative to read schools' employment statistics before committing to a particular school.
Do you mind sharing how you will be financing your legal education? It makes a huge difference.
How about BLS with a full scholarship, top 80% stip? Does that change things?
No. If you only take out loans for nyc cost of living Brooklyn is STILL not worth it

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by etfc500 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:27 pm

Thanks for all the helpful coments, guys.

Reasonable_man, the info you've provided (~ fake big law) was especially insightful -- thanks

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by sadie T. » Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:14 pm

baal hadad wrote:
sadie T. wrote:
Biglaw1990 wrote:
etfc737 wrote:
TLSers don't tell people to "retake" because they have a superiority complex. They advise prospective law students to retake because it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options. You have to be at the very top of your class to even be considered by a large firm, let alone be guaranteed a position.
I'm going to use the same level(or lack of) of reasoning you've used:
Many people DO tell ppl to "retake" because they are emotionally insecure and/or have superiority complex. They like to offer this "advise" over and over again (w/o consideration of any other relative/individual factors) because it allows them to feel better about themselves. An example would be: "it gives them better options. Going to any of the schools you are considering will not give you great options." Classic example of being presumptuous, with a hint of idiocy.
Attempting to dissuade someone from paying a ton of money for a law school, which leaves tons of graduates un- or underemployed, does not make people feel better about themselves.
I suggest you read the following articles: http://college.usatoday.com/2015/07/17/ ... on-refund/
http://abovethelaw.com/2015/06/this-is- ... tatistics/
I, for one, genuinely want to give future law students good advice about particular schools. It is imperative to read schools' employment statistics before committing to a particular school.
Do you mind sharing how you will be financing your legal education? It makes a huge difference.
How about BLS with a full scholarship, top 80% stip? Does that change things?
No. If you only take out loans for nyc cost of living Brooklyn is STILL not worth it
Add a living stipend. How about now?

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. School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by Biglaw1990 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:17 pm

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by landshoes » Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:21 pm

Having a JD from there is a seriously negative signal in a number of contexts. Lawyers are snobs, but anyone who isn't a lawyer and doesn't understand the different law schools will think you're overqualified or not interested in non-law work.

JDs can be a huge drag on employability. If you know of a local job that hires many people every year and/or will hire you, it's not as big of a risk. But it's still a risk and costs 3 years of opportunities to do something more productive, even with a stipend.

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Re: Students/prospective students of Brooklyn Law School (BLS) - HUGE drop in 2017 rankings

Post by landshoes » Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:22 pm

Low salary is like $15-20 an hour, by the way. Not 80k.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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