Top Law Schools

Hey guys,

I've been accepted by both Kansas and Washburn. My heart has been set on Kansas since undergrad, but I couldn't afford it then. It has always been the ideal law school for me.

Kansas offered me a 10k yearly scholarship and their tuition is 34k
Washburn offered me 10k yearly scholarship and their tuition is 19k.

(I'm from KCMO and out of state for both, but Washburn offered me in-state contingent upon a 3.0 or changing my residency after 6 months, which I doubt I'd do.)

I want to practice in the area, I don't intend on moving out of the Midwest, not for a while, at least. I want to do biglaw in KC but eventually family law.
The practical choice would be Washburn. But for me KU is a big deal. Kansas has the name recognition if I did want to go to another nearby state, the alumni network is crazy extensive. I think something like 70% of lawyers in KC are KU Law grads.

Would I be stupid to pass up graduating 30k in debt to attend my dream school and end up 72k in debt?

Thanks guys

I'm not sure if it's worth noting that Kansas is ranked 67 while Washburn is ranked 122.

In case this isn't flame:

I hate to burst your bubble (sincerely because you seem very enthusiastic), but your expectations are beyond unrealistic.
First, contrary to what you think, KU Law School does not have any name recognition. A J.D. from KU is not the least bit portable, so let's get that out of the way.
Second, if you want big law, KU gives you almost no shot. Last year only 8% of the class ended up with a big law gig. See Aba Employment Data.

If you have modest goals, maxed out your LSAT takes, are committed to working in Kansas, and are obsessed with the idea of being a lawyer and willing to hustle to get a modest-paying legal job, then I guess KU would make sense. Otherwise, it is a waste of your time.

Good Luck!

It's portable in the area that I wish to practice in- the KC area.

I'm committed to working in KCMO. I have an almost guaranteed job lined up at a private sector work comp law firm I work at currently. Just curious as to if there's a big wave of difference in respect (IN KC METRO) between the two schools.

Thanks for your help!

admittedlawgirl16 wrote:I'm not sure if it's worth noting that Kansas is ranked 67 while Washburn is ranked 122.

This doesn't matter. What matters are the employment statistics of the two schools, the cost of attendance, and the area where you want to practice.

stego wrote:

admittedlawgirl16 wrote:I'm not sure if it's worth noting that Kansas is ranked 67 while Washburn is ranked 122.

This doesn't matter. What matters are the employment statistics of the two schools, the cost of attendance, and the area where you want to practice.

KU would be 24k
Washburn 9k

I'm just not thrilled about living and being in Topeka.
employment statistics are similar, with Kansas topping Washburn slightly. Lawrence, KS (where Washburn is located) is only 30-40 minutes from where I want to practice. Washburn's location is an hour.

Kansas ranks better, has better bar pass rates and employment stats, just way more expensive.

Should I go with the cheaper option in this scenario? My heart wants KU so very bad, I just want to know if I will come out on top (minus debt) with KU.

Thanks for help and opinions!!!

admittedlawgirl16 wrote:But for me KU is a big deal. Kansas has the name recognition if I did want to go to another nearby state

Not portable in that you can not go to other states if you feel like it. KU does not have clout, especially not outside of KC. Again, you mentioned big law. If big law is at all in your head, you need to retake the LSAT and go to a school that will give you a realistic shot at it.

What is biglaw in Kansas City? How many jobs are there? I think you may find it difficult to get a biglaw job from either school because the market must be tiny.

Do kids from WUSTL go to KC for jobs? There must be T14 kids who go back.

I absolutely wouldn't count on biglaw.

I'm not sure you have the cost of attendance correct. What about interest on your loans, tuition increases, and cost of living?

If I want to practice in kc, which school carries more prestige out of the two in your opinion if you had to pick one.

You don't see many JDs from anywhere but KU UMKC And Washburn in the KC area. I work at a large insurance defense office and most "local" degrees are from these three schools. More from KU. I'm completely content living and working at one of the biggest law firms in KC and no further. Which degree, of the two, holds more clout?

Thanks

Yeah cost of attendance does not mean tuition. It basically means everything you'll have to pay for to cover those three years.

This might help you calculate it for those schools. https://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissio ... geid=61621

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm not sure you have the cost of attendance correct. What about interest on your loans, tuition increases, and cost of living?

At KU my COA per year is roughly 35k
At Washburn my COA is roughly 17k

Sorry for brevity and possible typos as I'm responding via phone

Thanks!!!!

admittedlawgirl16 wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm not sure you have the cost of attendance correct. What about interest on your loans, tuition increases, and cost of living?

At KU my COA per year is roughly 35k
At Washburn my COA is roughly 17k

Sorry for brevity and possible typos as I'm responding via phone

Thanks!!!!

Kansas currently estimates annual cost of attendance at just under $50k. How does a $10k scholarship get you to $35k? Counting tuition increases and interest, the Georgetown calculator puts you at a little under $150k debt at start of repayment (with your scholarship).

admittedlawgirl16 wrote:If I want to practice in kc, which school carries more prestige out of the two in your opinion if you had to pick one.

You don't see many JDs from anywhere but KU UMKC And Washburn in the KC area. I work at a large insurance defense office and most "local" degrees are from these three schools. More from KU. I'm completely content living and working at one of the biggest law firms in KC and no further. Which degree, of the two, holds more clout?

My goodness. This has to be flame.

Look, both schools are bad. Neither has prestige/clout. As for big law prospects, they place 8% and 3% respectively. You would be content working at one of the biggest firms in KC?? lawl to this.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

admittedlawgirl16 wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm not sure you have the cost of attendance correct. What about interest on your loans, tuition increases, and cost of living?

At KU my COA per year is roughly 35k
At Washburn my COA is roughly 17k

Sorry for brevity and possible typos as I'm responding via phone

Thanks!!!!

Kansas currently estimates annual cost of attendance at just under $50k. How does a $10k scholarship get you to $35k? Counting tuition increases and interest, the Georgetown calculator puts you at a little under $150k debt at start of repayment (with your scholarship).

KU tuition is 29k I would live at home, since I'm so close. After scholarship and with costs of books, parking passes, other miscellaneous I guess I'm at closer to 25k. Anyone have any objective choices as an outsider looking in? Is one degree worth more than the other?

Thanks!

Alright...objective analysis, because I'll be the first to admit that I don't know a damn thing about the KCMO legal market or the perceptions of folks in the area as they concern law schools.

Here's what I know objectively...basically, the four schools that I assume serve the KCMO market are all basically the same. Here are the LST employment scores of these schools (think of this as the percentage of the school's most recent class who are actually practicing law 9 months after graduation):

Kansas-66%
UMKC-60%
UM-Columbia-64%
Washburn-63%

So, aside from the fact that clearly one of these schools should close so that supply to this market can better match demand, this looks to me like a situation where you should be indifferent to which school you pick among these and choose based on whichever one is cheapest and string-free. Stipulations of any kind beyond "good standing" are invidious and should be avoided. As you stand now, both schools are simply too expensive. If you can get Kansas for nearly free (this will require improving your credentials), that's your best bet.

Biglaw in KC is a unicorn goal and should not exist at all within your current plan. Basically, you'd be taking a 2 out of 3 chance that you'll get a meaningful legal job at all. With your goal being family law, that shouldn't be a problem.

Jayhawk here. 20 years from now will you regret it if you didn't go to KU? If the answer is yes, then go to KU.
Have fun and enjoy Lawrence but make sure that you are realistic about the kind of job you will have after graduation and how long it will take to pay off your debt with that salary range.

A@M_or_bust wrote:

admittedlawgirl16 wrote:If I want to practice in kc, which school carries more prestige out of the two in your opinion if you had to pick one.

You don't see many JDs from anywhere but KU UMKC And Washburn in the KC area. I work at a large insurance defense office and most "local" degrees are from these three schools. More from KU. I'm completely content living and working at one of the biggest law firms in KC and no further. Which degree, of the two, holds more clout?

My goodness. This has to be flame.

Look, both schools are bad. Neither has prestige/clout. As for big law prospects, they place 8% and 3% respectively. You would be content working at one of the biggest firms in KC?? lawl to this.

I think OP meant they wouldn't leave the area not that biglaw in a tiny market is the only job they would take. It took me a minute to figure out.

admittedlawgirl16 wrote: Kansas offered me a 10k yearly scholarship and their tuition is 34k

admittedlawgirl16 wrote: KU tuition is 29k I would live at home, since I'm so close. After scholarship and with costs of books, parking passes, other miscellaneous I guess I'm at closer to 25k.

...you also seem very confused about the numbers. Sit down with a competent individual and calculate how much you would pay over 3 years of law school at each school. Be sure to include interest.

Don't attend either of these schools unless you have a full tuition (or close to full tuition) scholarship.

Yeah you really need to figure out how much debt you will be in. Consider tuition, cost of living, loan origination fees, accumulated interest, etc.

BigZuck wrote:Yeah you really need to figure out how much debt you will be in. Consider tuition, cost of living, loan origination fees, accumulated interest, etc.

Id be twice as much in debt at KU than I would be at Washburn, but people outside of Kansas and Missouri have never heard of Washburn. Is this problematic? Should I go to the third tier school and accrue 2x more debt or go to the super small local school? My job prospects are about the same. The president of the firm I work at has a Washburn degree. The kc metro area is saturated with Kansas, UMKC, MU and Washburn degrees. Am I missing anything by skipping out on the pricier school?

admittedlawgirl16 wrote:

BigZuck wrote:Yeah you really need to figure out how much debt you will be in. Consider tuition, cost of living, loan origination fees, accumulated interest, etc.

Id be twice as much in debt at KU than I would be at Washburn, but people outside of Kansas and Missouri have never heard of Washburn. Is this problematic? Should I go to the third tier school and accrue 2x more debt or go to the super small local school? My job prospects are about the same. The president of the firm I work at has a Washburn degree. The kc metro area is saturated with Kansas, UMKC, MU and Washburn degrees. Am I missing anything by skipping out on the pricier school?

First, why are you talking about recognition out of state? KU is not recognized out of state either, and based on their employment numbers, seems to be barely recognized in its own state of Kansas.

Second, for every president of a firm who attended Washburn, there are 100s of Washburn grads buried in debt and doing solo practice or unemployed. It is not wise to factor in individual successes of particular law school graduates into your decision making.

Lastly, and I am surprised that no other TLSers are backing me up on this point, but KU essentially closes you off from getting a big law job. You mention that you want big law and are content with working at "one of the biggest firms in KC." For the last time, please don't go to KU with this expectation.

If you can't even come up with a reasonably reliable 3-year cost of attendance figure without backtracking and making things up, then you shouldn't go to ANY school.

With that said, both of these schools suck. But, you (allegedly) have a guaranteed job. So how much does this allegedly-guaranteed job pay? If it's a lot, then go to KU. If not, then save the money.

You seem like not a great candidate for any school, though.

Have you attempted to negotiate your scholarship with either. It seems odd that your scholarship is the same at both schools. Also, my understanding is that you can get instate at both KU and Washburn after no more than a year. Furthermore, why are you worried about declaring Kansas as your residency, that seems like a silly concern.

As someone who is from the area and was successful at a T20 school there is some truth that partners at KC firms would rather hire someone from a local school but you better be in the top 10% and on LR. Ultimately, KU is a probably an underrated school but if you have to take on that large of debt I don't think its worth it. If you would like to PM me one of my good friends goes to KU and would be a great resource (and she is no shill to the school).