UCLA or Vanderbilt? Forum

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

to the vandy guy:

shit like "people do fine in [market] at my school" is so fucking pointless. 55% of people not ending up in bl+fc is not "fine." i get that you go to vanderbilt and, like many other pathetic LS lemmings, wanna homer for your own school, but you are giving life-ruining advice to OP.

vanderbilt (along with gwu, fordham, boston university, boston college, wustl, ucla, usc) is the DEFINITION of a trap school. that trap school can be a great option if you got a fat scholarship, but without a big scholly it's a huge trap school.

OP, msg some dude named arklaw01 or something. he is a current vandy 2L or 3L i believe. he did very well, and he will give you honest opinion about vanderbilt.

[wolfie_m.]

.

[Tls2016]

I don't think the median Vanderbilt grad is getting biglaw in NYC. And it isn't all because they would rather stay in the South. My firm wouldn't interview a median student at Vandy, maybe T 25% and law review at a stretch. And my firm is one of the V10 that isn't grade selective.

First off, the bolded is fair.

My issue with what you originally posted was that Vandy's placement power was strictly limited to Tennessee, not the Southeast. You aren't the first person to have posted a similar sentiment on TLS in the past few weeks. That's why your comment confused me.

Also, what I said about people doing just fine in NYC has to be read in context with what I said about Vandy's general placement power. Plus, V10, regardless of grade selectivity, isn't representative of the whole of NYC biglaw.

And finally, you're the second person I've seen to give a hard GPA cut-off for your firm in the last few days. I'm genuinely curious as to how you know what the top 25% is because of our black-box ranking system.

Recruiting figures it out. I have no idea they have to know some GPA correlation to ranking.

I didn't say Vandy was only Tennessee. I said he can't count on NYC from Vandy and I stand by that.

[wolfie_m.]

.

[Toodle-loo]

to the vandy guy:

shit like "people do fine in [market] at my school" is so fucking pointless. 55% of people not ending up in bl+fc is not "fine." i get that you go to vanderbilt and, like many other pathetic LS lemmings, wanna homer for your own school, but you are giving life-ruining advice to OP.

vanderbilt (along with gwu, fordham, boston university, boston college, wustl, ucla, usc) is the DEFINITION of a trap school. that trap school can be a great option if you got a fat scholarship, but without a big scholly it's a huge trap school.

OP, msg some dude named arklaw01 or something. he is a current vandy 2L or 3L i believe. he did very well, and he will give you honest opinion about vanderbilt.

I'll tell that to the two grads that I work for with their combined 5 homes and 2 boats that their loans weren't worth the nearly 600k they currently pull annually because their alma mater is strictly a "trap school".

Also, 55% of people not ending up in bl+fc is actually perfectly fine if, say, 45% of people didn't try for or want those things. News flash, we don't actually know what the relative numbers are, which is completely a fault of the statistics themselves being measured only in absolutes, but jesus christ at least understand the basics of statistics and conclusion-drawing.

Plus, OP is interested in PI work, so the things you mention are really just useless.

[Tls2016]

This is Prof Campos original post about trap schools in 2012 when hiring was dead.

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... s.html?m=1

The problem is that both schools in question here are incredibly expensive for OP. Maybe Vanderbilt is cheaper but it's still around $80,000 a year for COA leaving OP with about $150,000 of debt from a school that isn't in his target market. It's not an optimal choice.

I hope OP comes back to the thread and answers questions. I'm curious where he applied in NYC.

[Tls2016]

to the vandy guy:

shit like "people do fine in [market] at my school" is so fucking pointless. 55% of people not ending up in bl+fc is not "fine." i get that you go to vanderbilt and, like many other pathetic LS lemmings, wanna homer for your own school, but you are giving life-ruining advice to OP.

vanderbilt (along with gwu, fordham, boston university, boston college, wustl, ucla, usc) is the DEFINITION of a trap school. that trap school can be a great option if you got a fat scholarship, but without a big scholly it's a huge trap school.

OP, msg some dude named arklaw01 or something. he is a current vandy 2L or 3L i believe. he did very well, and he will give you honest opinion about vanderbilt.

I'll tell that to the two grads that I work for with their combined 5 homes and 2 boats that their loans weren't worth the nearly 600k they currently pull annually because their alma mater is strictly a "trap school".

Also, 55% of people not ending up in bl+fc is actually perfectly fine if, say, 45% of people didn't try for or want those things. News flash, we don't actually know what the relative numbers are, which is completely a fault of the statistics themselves being measured only in absolutes, but jesus christ at least understand the basics of statistics and conclusion-drawing.

Plus, OP is interested in PI work, so the things you mention are really just useless.

You know these anecdotes aren't helpful at all? I'm not sure what you are hoping to accomplish except a one person 0L war fought with anecdotes about your job against current students and grads. How this helps OP isn't clear.
Fight on, I guess.

[cron1834]

Toodles may be the worst poster on all of TLS. Jesus Christ. OP is talking about taking out $180k in nondischargeable debt to go to a regional school with goals outside of the region that don't make sense. Full stop.

Just lol at this jabbering about your shitty boss's houses, etc.

[krads153]

Your bosses probably went to law school when it cost like 10 bucks a year....tuition has increased a shitload recently. (And yes, salaries have gone up too, but not in proportion with tuition and high COL).

If we're going to jabber about rich people, 99% of rich people I know personally aren't lawyers/doctors and didn't go to grad school and went to random state school undergrads...and the people I'm talking about are on average richer than biglaw partners....

[somethingElse]

to the vandy guy:

shit like "people do fine in [market] at my school" is so fucking pointless. 55% of people not ending up in bl+fc is not "fine." i get that you go to vanderbilt and, like many other pathetic LS lemmings, wanna homer for your own school, but you are giving life-ruining advice to OP.

vanderbilt (along with gwu, fordham, boston university, boston college, wustl, ucla, usc) is the DEFINITION of a trap school. that trap school can be a great option if you got a fat scholarship, but without a big scholly it's a huge trap school.

OP, msg some dude named arklaw01 or something. he is a current vandy 2L or 3L i believe. he did very well, and he will give you honest opinion about vanderbilt.

I'll tell that to the two grads that I work for with their combined 5 homes and 2 boats that their loans weren't worth the nearly 600k they currently pull annually because their alma mater is strictly a "trap school".

Also, 55% of people not ending up in bl+fc is actually perfectly fine if, say, 45% of people didn't try for or want those things. News flash, we don't actually know what the relative numbers are, which is completely a fault of the statistics themselves being measured only in absolutes, but jesus christ at least understand the basics of statistics and conclusion-drawing.

Plus, OP is interested in PI work, so the things you mention are really just useless.

That's way too many homes and two too many boats.

[Tls2016]

I'm extremely skeptical of the excuse that a school's placement in biglaw and federal clerkships is poor because the students didn't want it. At the kind of debt level most grads will have two years in biglaw can make a difference. Not many students with 6 figures of debt can afford to turn their back on that money or the experience.
Of course some people are dedicated to PI but not 55% of a class.

[Acordeon]

This is Prof Campos original post about trap schools in 2012 when hiring was dead.

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... s.html?m=1

The problem is that both schools in question here are incredibly expensive for OP. Maybe Vanderbilt is cheaper but it's still around $80,000 a year for COA leaving OP with about $150,000 of debt from a school that isn't in his target market. It's not an optimal choice.

I hope OP comes back to the thread and answers questions. I'm curious where he applied in NYC.

A. She
B. Fordham, Brooklyn, Columbia, NYU. Rejected from Columbia and NYU. $30,000/year at Fordham and Brooklyn. I know Fordham pretty well, and I really don't think it's worth it to go there over Vanderbilt in terms of national reputation. I want NYC for a bit after law school, but who knows where I'll end up in 10 years. Maybe those of you who are married and have kids have stronger regional preferences. I prefer NYC, but I'm not dead set on it. I want degree mobility, and it's not like I have the option of going to a "T14" with a scholarship.

I'd hardly argue that it's not worth it for ANYONE to go to law school if they don't get into T14. I'd even argue that that's an elitist viewpoint. However, I'm not as debt-averse as the typical law student, so I can't speak for everyone.

[Toodle-loo]

Toodles may be the worst poster on all of TLS. Jesus Christ. OP is talking about taking out $180k in nondischargeable debt to go to a regional school with goals outside of the region that don't make sense. Full stop.

Just lol at this jabbering about your shitty boss's houses, etc.

1) It's not nondischargeable if PI/PSLF is in play
2) Yea, I take issue with my "shitty boss" and her alma mater being crapped on when it's unnecessary and foolhardy, and
3) thanks so much for your award, I'll put it on my resume and make sure to point it out during interviews

[Toodle-loo]

This is Prof Campos original post about trap schools in 2012 when hiring was dead.

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... s.html?m=1

The problem is that both schools in question here are incredibly expensive for OP. Maybe Vanderbilt is cheaper but it's still around $80,000 a year for COA leaving OP with about $150,000 of debt from a school that isn't in his target market. It's not an optimal choice.

I hope OP comes back to the thread and answers questions. I'm curious where he applied in NYC.

A. She
B. Fordham, Brooklyn, Columbia, NYU. Rejected from Columbia and NYU. $30,000/year at Fordham and Brooklyn. I know Fordham pretty well, and I really don't think it's worth it to go there over Vanderbilt in terms of national reputation. I want NYC for a bit after law school, but who knows where I'll end up in 10 years. Maybe those of you who are married and have kids have stronger regional preferences. I prefer NYC, but I'm not dead set on it. I want degree mobility, and it's not like I have the option of going to a "T14" with a scholarship.

I'd hardly argue that it's not worth it for ANYONE to go to law school if they don't get into T14. I'd even argue that that's an elitist viewpoint. However, I'm not as debt-averse as the typical law student, so I can't speak for everyone.

-5 for everyone that misgendered you and +15 for TLS2016 managing to state an opinion without being a dickwad, unlike Cron.

I'm not opposed to difficult/unpopular opinions, I'm opposed to jerks.

[Toodle-loo]

That's way too many homes and two too many boats.

For the record, I agree

[Toodle-loo]

Your bosses probably went to law school when it cost like 10 bucks a year....tuition has increased a shitload recently. (And yes, salaries have gone up too, but not in proportion with tuition and high COL).

If we're going to jabber about rich people, 99% of rich people I know personally aren't lawyers/doctors and didn't go to grad school and went to random state school undergrads...and the people I'm talking about are on average richer than biglaw partners....

You know these anecdotes aren't helpful at all? I'm not sure what you are hoping to accomplish except a one person 0L war fought with anecdotes about your job against current students and grads. How this helps OP isn't clear.
Fight on, I guess.

I don't disagree about tuition increases and whether or not it's a "good investment". Honestly, looking at a *smaller* same debt load that they had at the same school, I'm weary of it.

I wasn't making an argument that these schools are blanket a good idea because of my tiny anecdotal experience, I just really can't stand pompous wads that like to talk out of their trash just to be rude and put other people/schools down.

It's perfectly easy to say "hey, this school might be a questionable investment at this price for reasons x, y, and z, OP, so with the given information I would do option q" and get the same damned point across.

[Hikikomorist]

Vandy is a "trap school" now? Are you intentionally talking out of your ass?

Also, this . . .

OP: would you be happy living somewhere other than NYC? These schools are regional and it may be easier for you to get a job in their location. But I think Tennessee is ties sensitive and I don't know if you have any.

Did you apply to any NYC schools?

???

Look, Vandy is a good, but not great, school. It's not a T14. Historically, it places well in the Southeast, but people do just fine in NYC. Most Vandy people don't target NYC, though, so that's something to consider.

The other thing to consider is Vandy's placement power generally. Class of 2014 was 41% roughly BL + FC. Class of 2015 is probably similar, if not slightly higher (I'm thinking up to 45% once the numbers are released).

Class of 2016 was the first class with the new curve. That percentage will probably be more like 60% BL + FC when it comes out, based on SAs and such. I don't know what the Class of 2017 is looking.

Vandy does not place terribly well in Chicago, or on the West Coast. But people do just fine in NYC.

No offense, but this seems borderline delusional.

[Tls2016]

This is Prof Campos original post about trap schools in 2012 when hiring was dead.

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... s.html?m=1

The problem is that both schools in question here are incredibly expensive for OP. Maybe Vanderbilt is cheaper but it's still around $80,000 a year for COA leaving OP with about $150,000 of debt from a school that isn't in his target market. It's not an optimal choice.

I hope OP comes back to the thread and answers questions. I'm curious where he applied in NYC.

A. She
B. Fordham, Brooklyn, Columbia, NYU. Rejected from Columbia and NYU. $30,000/year at Fordham and Brooklyn. I know Fordham pretty well, and I really don't think it's worth it to go there over Vanderbilt in terms of national reputation. I want NYC for a bit after law school, but who knows where I'll end up in 10 years. Maybe those of you who are married and have kids have stronger regional preferences. I prefer NYC, but I'm not dead set on it. I want degree mobility, and it's not like I have the option of going to a "T14" with a scholarship.

I'd hardly argue that it's not worth it for ANYONE to go to law school if they don't get into T14. I'd even argue that that's an elitist viewpoint. However, I'm not as debt-averse as the typical law student, so I can't speak for everyone.

Sorry OP. Please accept my apology.
No one is saying only go if you get a T14 with scholarship.

I wasn't clear how necessary it was for you to be in NYC. I'm on the fence about Fordham because I'm not a huge fan. If you've already rejected it, then that's that. You need to pick a region to live in where your school can get you a job.

As for national reach, I don't know about that because I've only lived in NYC. I know that your job, experience and connections matter most after you graduate. You are right about Vanderbilt having the most name recognition.

I'm extremely debt averse because I've seen people struggle to their loans back for years. I also have been around since before PAYE and that at least relieves some of the psychological stress of massive non dischargable debt. For me, law wouldn't be worth it. It's your decision though.

[BigZuck]

OP- you want to go to law school with a poor gpa, you want geographic mobility, you want career flexibility, and (I'm assuming) you want it to be at an OK cost. I think something is going to have to give here. You're not going to be able to have this cake and also get to eat it too IMO.

If you want to be in NYC, you need to find different schools.

If you want it to be at a reasonable cost, you need to find different schools.

If you want flexibility, you need to find different schools.

I'm actually not sure that either of these schools make sense on any level for you.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

Lol, just lol.

I'm not a shill for the school. If you knew me, you'd know that. But defining the so-called "strong regionals" as trap schools is unduly cynical and is as unhelpful as what you claim I'm saying.

I get that you're not going to give me the benefit of the doubt, but you've gotta read what I said in context of Vandy's placement power generally to get what I was saying about Vandy and NYC. (And read everything I actually posted.)

hmmmmmmmm lets see your context.

Historically, it places well in the Southeast, but people do just fine in NYC.
The other thing to consider is Vandy's placement power generally. Class of 2014 was 41% roughly BL + FC. Class of 2015 is probably similar, if not slightly higher (I'm thinking up to 45% once the numbers are released).

Class of 2016 was the first class with the new curve. That percentage will probably be more like 60% BL + FC when it comes out, based on SAs and such.

LJL. fucking LJL. dude who is claiming that vandy will now place 60% in BL+FC (on michigan/uva/gulc level) when it has never done that in the past eight years is absolutely NOT shilling for his school right?

you telling OP that "people do just fine in NYC" + that number you pulled out your own ass is absolutely not shilling for vandy at all. hey if this LS shit doesnt work out you got a great career as a used car salesman.

listen man. you wanna shill for your school. it's cool. most kids on TLS do. but you are fucking telling someone to ruin his life because you wanted to feel better about your shitty life choice.

[BigZuck]

Saying things like "Perhaps a significant percentage of the class is opting out of big law" and "I think Vandy might jump up to 60% soon" strikes me as naive at best

These are good schools and I think there are much worse traps out there but they don't make sense for certain career goals and/or at a certain cost

[Toodle-loo]

Lol, just lol.

I'm not a shill for the school. If you knew me, you'd know that. But defining the so-called "strong regionals" as trap schools is unduly cynical and is as unhelpful as what you claim I'm saying.

I get that you're not going to give me the benefit of the doubt, but you've gotta read what I said in context of Vandy's placement power generally to get what I was saying about Vandy and NYC. (And read everything I actually posted.)

hmmmmmmmm lets see your context.

Historically, it places well in the Southeast, but people do just fine in NYC.
The other thing to consider is Vandy's placement power generally. Class of 2014 was 41% roughly BL + FC. Class of 2015 is probably similar, if not slightly higher (I'm thinking up to 45% once the numbers are released).

Class of 2016 was the first class with the new curve. That percentage will probably be more like 60% BL + FC when it comes out, based on SAs and such.

LJL. fucking LJL. dude who is claiming that vandy will now place 60% in BL+FC (on michigan/uva/gulc level) when it has never done that in the past eight years is absolutely NOT shilling for his school right?

you telling OP that "people do just fine in NYC" + that number you pulled out your own ass is absolutely not shilling for vandy at all. hey if this LS shit doesnt work out you got a great career as a used car salesman.

listen man. you wanna shill for your school. it's cool. most kids on TLS do. but you are fucking telling someone to ruin his life because you wanted to feel better about your shitty life choice.

Again, for measure and advice, OP is not trying to go into biglaw....


Setting aside the weird tangents and dick measuring contests in this thread, I agree with TLS2016 and Zuck about the outlook/current options. That being said, if NYC can wait a few years or perhaps the preference is flexible and these are the options on the table to choose from, I don't personally think that Vanderbilt is a bad stick to draw here. Perhaps not a perfect stick, but not a bad stick.

[Toodle-loo]

Saying things like "Perhaps a significant percentage of the class is opting out of big law" and "I think Vandy might jump up to 60% soon" strikes me as naive at best

These are good schools and I think there are much worse traps out there but they don't make sense for certain career goals and/or at a certain cost

To clarify my position: I don't think that 55% of the class opted out of biglaw. The way I worded my opinion must have misrepresented what I think; I was merely pointing out that from a position of statistical analysis, one cannot see that 45% of a class got biglaw+clerkship and assume that there is thus only a "45% chance". That's not how statistics work. Now, if we know that 100% of the class tried for those things and only 45% got them, then we can conclude the 45% odds.

We can draw inferences here, sure, but the only meaningful ones we can draw are "there's seemingly a better chance at x school than y", not necessarily "ZOMG IT'S ONLY COINFLIP ODDS".

In other words, we are in agreement about the conclusions.

[wolfie_m.]

.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

"k?"

fucking LJL. here you go:

Vandy 2L here.

It's a close call, but I would lean GULC if you want NYC. There are fewer people here who go after NYC because of self-selection, but there are also a ton fewer firms that come to OCI here. Plus, median grades don't give you a great shot at a NYC firm

-if you're around the median it can be very difficult to get a job with a firm. If you have ties to the south, it's easier because certain markets are less grade-selective, but if you're trying to get back to the northeast, Cali, or somewhere else you could easily be fucked.

yes. vandy at 58% according to the arklaw post you quoted is now literally outplacing both michigan and uva into biglaw. eat shit.